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Suspect flags in rookie systems
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Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-02-10 20:49:51 UTC
I don't see why people get upset about killing rookies. Their free ships are quite good now, they won't have any losses from being podded. There's almost nothing at stake for them at that point. Good way to learn a simple lesson of being careful what you shoot at.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#22 - 2013-02-10 20:52:14 UTC
Newbies shold learn lessons without too many parachutes and pampers.

- They learn from mistakes fast if they hurt their nose and losing a 100k ISK ship early is better than becoming an idiot losing a 3B pimpboat later.

- They learn that EvE is a cold, harsh universe, not just a marketing label.

- They learn to not fly what they can't afford to lose and that there are more malign entities than rats out there.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Whitehound
#23 - 2013-02-10 22:43:01 UTC
Demolishar wrote:
Maybe CCP should add a "Protected Noob" status, making them immune to all pvp. ...

You do have this. It is the state you are in after you entered your password and before choosing your character. There is your immunity.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-02-10 22:46:04 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Demolishar wrote:
Maybe CCP should add a "Protected Noob" status, making them immune to all pvp. ...

You do have this. It is the state you are in after you entered your password and before choosing your character. There is your immunity.


They also gain permanent pvp immunity once they're podkilled. Removable only by pressing undock.
stoicfaux
#25 - 2013-02-10 22:54:22 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Newbies shold learn lessons without too many parachutes and pampers.

- They learn from mistakes fast if they hurt their nose and losing a 100k ISK ship early is better than becoming an idiot losing a 3B pimpboat later.

- They learn that EvE is a cold, harsh universe, not just a marketing label.

- They learn to not fly what they can't afford to lose and that there are more malign entities than rats out there.

I disagree for several reasons, which primarily center on the fact that there are more WoW type players than there are "PvP is a harsh, dark mistress; spank me harder" type players.

1) Eve is a complex game. High-sec PvP mechanics are still pretty complex and don't follow the "standard" paradigm of "this is a PvP zone and this is a non-PvP zone." Baiting a newbie who's still trying to figure out the *INTERFACE*, navigation, the market, what a Merlin is, how skills work, fittings, etc.., is a bit overwhelming and unfair.

I'm not saying that the "Eve is a cold harsh universe" message shouldn't be made abundantly clear, I'm just saying that new players really need an opportunity to learn the basic mechanics of a game, i.e. give them a chance to stand up before they get knocked down.

2) De-programming WoW players. CCP needs to de-program carebear/PvP-lite newbies who visit from other games. Dumping a bucket of ice cold PvP on a WoW refugee may drive that newbie away. Instead of dumping the frog WoW newbie straight into the boiling water, let's all just pretend it's a jacuzzi for a little while before we start adding the vegetables.

3) Spawn Camping is lame (in most games.) Spawn Camping newbies is even worse if it drives customers away by giving the false impression that your MMO is nothing more than a bunch of "high-level" players ganking newbies all day. You first need to allow newbies to see the possibilities the sandbox has to offer before poking them in the eyes. Otherwise they won't come back.

Eve isn't like other games and requires learning new paradigms and unlearning assumptions and play-styles specific to other MMOs. Ganking newbies before they can see Eve's potential is self-defeating.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Whitehound
#26 - 2013-02-10 22:56:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
We might as well accuse CONCORD for baiting. Or where is the difference here:

1) Player locks onto and shoots at a blinking yellow space ship, and gets killed.

2) Player locks onto and shoots at a CONCORD ship, and gets killed.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#27 - 2013-02-10 23:23:15 UTC
Saddest part of this game is players that are so bad, they need to pick on brand new players......Oops


Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Ayvonne Corlinn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-02-10 23:40:17 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
We might as well accuse CONCORD for baiting. Or where is the difference here:

1) Player locks onto and shoots at a blinking yellow space ship, and gets killed.

2) Player locks onto and shoots at a CONCORD ship, and gets killed.

I would have thought a 4-year-old player could see the MASSIVE difference:

1) Legal target - can be engaged by anyone.

2) Illegal target that can't be engaged without deliberately setting the security button to make it possible.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-02-10 23:54:09 UTC
Stoicfaux, you know the concept of flashy yellow baiting exists in WoW too. Fly to the opposing faction's newbie zone, flag self for pvp, wait for hapless newbie to attack you, stomp them.

And the overall consequences of them dying is pretty much just as small.
stoicfaux
#30 - 2013-02-11 02:56:06 UTC
Takseen wrote:
Stoicfaux, you know the concept of flashy yellow baiting exists in WoW too. Fly to the opposing faction's newbie zone, flag self for pvp, wait for hapless newbie to attack you, stomp them.

Eh, it's not the same, IME. The sides are clearly defined (Alliance v Horde,) there is no death penalty (either a minor repair bill or, as a newbie, you'll get new gear via questing,) folks tend to band together when a side invades the newbie zone, etc..

Quote:
And the overall consequences of them dying is pretty much just as small.

Not even close. If an Eve newbie loses his ship, he's not necessarily going to have the means to replace it even with the start-up funds and assets provided by the NPE missions.

But the biggest death penalty for a newbie in Eve is the time it takes to get and outfit a replacement ship. A WoW refugee is used to just jumping back in after a negligible death penalty. An Eve newbie has to figure out how to *get* and then fit a replacement ship. In a hostile marketplace. And determine what to do with it, now that he realizes he probably cannot afford random PvP.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Wodensun
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-02-11 03:08:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Wodensun
Don't mess with the newbies...
Wait till later when they fly nicer ships...
Makes for beter kill mails.

Unless ofcourse your a coward and need to prey on newbies to get your epeen inflated.

Just my 2 i$ks

Do not give me likes them 101 likes arent a accident...
Whitehound
#32 - 2013-02-11 09:43:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Ayvonne Corlinn wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
We might as well accuse CONCORD for baiting. Or where is the difference here:

1) Player locks onto and shoots at a blinking yellow space ship, and gets killed.

2) Player locks onto and shoots at a CONCORD ship, and gets killed.

I would have thought a 4-year-old player could see the MASSIVE difference:

1) Legal target - can be engaged by anyone.

2) Illegal target that can't be engaged without deliberately setting the security button to make it possible.

It does not make a difference when you want to label one of them as baiting and the other not. In both cases do you deliberately engage the target. You shoot at it.

How can a person of any age claim to have been baited into shooting??

Can baiting includes labelling something as free and the word "free" comes with many meanings, like something being free of pain, free of charge or cost, free of consequence, and so on. Therefore labelling a can as having "free stuff" and to trick the player into stealing and becoming a legal target to another player is considered as baiting. It is the fact that something gets labelled falsely and thus shall be condemned, if done purposely or not does not even matter, because it is misleading the new player.

You then want to condemn the presence of suspect flagged players from rookie systems, because somehow you believe that shooting others shall be free of consequence.

It is stupid.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#33 - 2013-02-11 12:12:33 UTC
CCP's message on this has been pretty clear; if you're intentionally preying on rookies, you're in the wrong.

i.e. there's a reason they're sitting in a rookie system doing this, and not somewhere else.

Just petition the people doing it - they stop very quickly.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Turelus
Utassi Security
#34 - 2013-02-11 12:28:40 UTC
I had an argument with someone who was sitting on the undock the other day about it, their view was "If they turn off the safety and shoot me then they deserve it"

You can check killboards though and they show plenty of NPC Newbie corp kills, if you suspect someone or see them (killboards are good proof) report them, CCP do that it seriously from what I have heard.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#35 - 2013-02-11 12:29:40 UTC
Kimball Bergbau wrote:
IIRC, before retribution was released it was against the rules to can bait rookies in a rookie system.

With suspect flags as they are, I see in all gallente rookie systems people sitting on the undock in T1 frigates/cruisers (occasionally T2) with suspect flags. Just sat there. Is this considered noob baiting too (and thus an actual offense)?


http://i.imgur.com/7uzxV1O.gif

You really have to do do A LOT to be able to shoot someone in highsec don´t you? There is this safety thingy...

If you engage someone you know that he maybe shoots back...not even more handholding please...

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Aracimia Wolfe
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2013-02-11 12:42:12 UTC
This is emergent gameplay here people.

Picking on newbies is bad mmkay, but darwinism shows that the clever ones won't do it twice. Also if they're sat outside a station blinky. ANYONE can have a crack. The newbies, the bittervets who decided to go get some cheap skillbooks..... >=)

Pay the noob to open up to prevent station games then dominate at your leisure. If they're that bad they need to kill newbies it should be a free pod.

Kill it with Fire!

Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2013-02-11 12:52:28 UTC
The rule is 'don't **** with rookies'

GMs don't care if you trying to find some stupid loophole regarding rules in rookie systems. They'll just nab you.

The rule is unlike other rules regarding harassment because rookies don't know how to control their ship yet
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-02-11 13:32:32 UTC
@Stoicfaux

I think you're overestimating the cost of replacing a tier 1 ship and fittings. You get 2 frigates per career agent mission chain, plus a reasonable set of modules, and there's always more for sale very cheap in the rookie system. Unless they
-sold all of their spare frigates
-bought expensive meta gear and put it all one frigate
-decided to engage a flashy suspect in that frigate without insuring it
they're not going to be left destitute.

Honestly the earlier they learn not to shoot at Suspects unless they can manage being shot back, the better. Losing a rookie ship>losing a frigate>losing a destroyer etc.
Whitehound
#39 - 2013-02-11 13:34:44 UTC
Aracimia Wolfe wrote:
Also if they're sat outside a station blinky. ANYONE can have a crack. The newbies, the bittervets who decided to go get some cheap skillbooks..... >=)

While this is true could a vet get into trouble for it just the same, because the general idea here seems to be that no player shooting shall ever take place within a rookie system. Or what if a vet goes into a rookie system and shoots a blinking yellow player? He could be shooting at a noob!

Either you disable suspect flagging in rookie systems, or disallow vets in rookie systems, or disallow PvP in rookie systems.

A rule such as "No f'cking with noobs" makes no sense to me, because I do not even know what it means other than having sexual intercourse.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2013-02-11 13:55:00 UTC
if they're a month old, doing the starter missions, docking at starter stations and not taking any aggressive action of their own (ie actually asking for a fight) they're pretty obviously a rookie

if they're trying to get shot at, or old enough, they're not covered by the rule

i think the gms are perfectly cabable of applying common sense and considering whether the aggressor was deliberately hunting rookies
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