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New AI, Great idea.....in Theory....
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Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#1 - 2013-02-10 06:17:56 UTC
I haven't really played much over the last year or so, just really can't find much of interest in the game.

So, bored as I am, I decided to go run some missions, something I haven't done in years.
I fit up a Gila, and ran some L3's.

The character used has 90 mil sp with 14 mil in Drones, I don't afk and I run Garde 2's, Ogre 2's, Hammers, and Goblins.

I tried a number of different tactics and found the following:

I went four missions before losing a drone, but it was not easy. I was forced to pull and redeploy drones repeatedly, I tried running goblins in the frigs and that worked well for one mission, but after that, they would go for the goblins as well.
I would normally drop Gardes at range and instapop the small stuff, however the last couple missions, rats would not aggro me at all, and would immediately aggro the drones when I dropped them, couldn't even keep one alive with a med armor repper.

I'm all for a more dynamic game CCP, but did you really think this out?

With Drone durability 5, Logi 5, Remote rep 5, NPC's that can barely hit me at 40k, are wiping out a Garde 2 with reps on it?
I don't think you really considered the fact that our drones are weak and stupid compared to the time and effort invested in all the skills.
If you don't use Sentries, and you aren't right in the middle of them, (Which isn't really the case in most missions) your forced to pull back your drones constantly, or lose them. Sometimes you lose them anyway if the NPC's are spread out, which is standard behavior for many of them.
I can't imagine what it's like for people without maxed out Drone skills, certainly proves why everyone is dumping their Rattlesnakes...Lol


Wake up CCP, leave the AI, but do something about Drones, Find some way to buff them and perhaps...even make them smarter than a lobotomized flea....Shocked



Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Keno Skir
#2 - 2013-02-10 06:27:50 UTC
You went four missions without losing a drone, but it wasn't easy?

Sounds like the balance is pretty ok to be honest mate. Pay for a few drones the way everyone else pays for ammo i guesse Cool

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-02-10 06:28:16 UTC
I agree with all the above points Cool

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#4 - 2013-02-10 06:42:55 UTC
From what I understand, the sleeper AI they use still hates EWAR with a burning passion.

Slap some ECM or TP on and watch them ignore your drones.

Or learn to drop and pull your Sentries instead of trying to let them tank aggro.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Keno Skir
#5 - 2013-02-10 06:48:06 UTC
I noticed the other day mission rats aren't nearly so bothered by Logistics ships as sleepers are. Sleepers will retarget to the Logistics almost instantly as it comes on grid, where as i have rarely had mission rats engage the Logistics at all What?

Not tried EWAR on mission rats yet.

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-02-10 06:59:21 UTC
We have beat this topic to death, but I agree with the OP.

A few points to remember:
1) missile launchers and guns/lasers cannot be primaried by NPCs. Imagine the uproar if NPCs could start taking out all forms of primary DPS. Well, at least that would some sort of fair ... as in spread the pain.
2) Drones were never intended to be "consumables" like ammo and are priced accordingly. You really cannot think of them the same way you do ammo or crystals. I've ditched my drones to save my ship, but that's a different concept.
3) No aggro management - not that I have seen, and I've tried everything from TPs to reppers to DPSing. If there were a way to reliably control aggro, even if complex, we could have fun using it. As it is, it's only frustration, and instead of fun, it feels like work :: NOT FUN.

There are a bunch more points that we have made in the previous threads. But this seems like enough to rekindle flame wars...

- not spell checked -
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#7 - 2013-02-10 07:00:39 UTC
The other day I thought I'd give the new mission AI a try so I logged into Sisi (since I promised myself I'd never run another mission again), fit up a rail Brutix with a three slot armor omni tank that pulled some 400 DPS @ 35km, and ran a few L3s.

I didn't notice any difference in the AI. Sad

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-02-10 07:02:55 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
The other day I thought I'd give the new mission AI a try so I logged into Sisi (since I promised myself I'd never run another mission again), fit up a rail Brutix with a three slot armor omni tank that pulled some 400 DPS @ 35km, and ran a few L3s.

I didn't notice any difference in the AI. Sad

unless you use drones, it's very hard to notice. with drones tho, you either have things like it is today, or they suddenly think that drones is the spawn of evil and needs to be terminated at all costs.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#9 - 2013-02-10 07:26:14 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Urgg Boolean wrote:
We have beat this topic to death, but I agree with the OP.

A few points to remember:
1) missile launchers and guns/lasers cannot be primaried by NPCs. Imagine the uproar if NPCs could start taking out all forms of primary DPS. Well, at least that would some sort of fair ... as in spread the pain.
2) Drones were never intended to be "consumables" like ammo and are priced accordingly. You really cannot think of them the same way you do ammo or crystals. I've ditched my drones to save my ship, but that's a different concept.
3) No aggro management - not that I have seen, and I've tried everything from TPs to reppers to DPSing. If there were a way to reliably control aggro, even if complex, we could have fun using it. As it is, it's only frustration, and instead of fun, it feels like work :: NOT FUN.

There are a bunch more points that we have made in the previous threads. But this seems like enough to rekindle flame wars...

- not spell checked -


1. *Cough*NPC Defender Missiles*Cough*
2. Good thing you can easily never lose a drone with the new AI. My only HS capable combat toon had literally 0 useful gunnery skills when I was working on grinding some standings for a new market toon. 0 Lost drones.
3. Drones go in, Drones go out. Drones go in, Drones go out. Wax on, Wax off. Aggro management.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#10 - 2013-02-10 07:35:10 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
The other day I thought I'd give the new mission AI a try so I logged into Sisi (since I promised myself I'd never run another mission again), fit up a rail Brutix with a three slot armor omni tank that pulled some 400 DPS @ 35km, and ran a few L3s.

I didn't notice any difference in the AI. Sad

unless you use drones, it's very hard to notice. with drones tho, you either have things like it is today, or they suddenly think that drones is the spawn of evil and needs to be terminated at all costs.

If something is too hard to do (OP using and losing drones in L3s, lol), try using another tool.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-02-10 07:42:55 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
The other day I thought I'd give the new mission AI a try so I logged into Sisi (since I promised myself I'd never run another mission again), fit up a rail Brutix with a three slot armor omni tank that pulled some 400 DPS @ 35km, and ran a few L3s.

I didn't notice any difference in the AI. Sad

unless you use drones, it's very hard to notice. with drones tho, you either have things like it is today, or they suddenly think that drones is the spawn of evil and needs to be terminated at all costs.

If something is too hard to do (OP using and losing drones in L3s, lol), try using another tool.
well, in the end it just makes dealing with npc frigates harder, that's all.

in particular, the interceptor-types, seem to hate drones with a passion. how did I dealt with? bring a navy raven and fill the dronebay with T1 hobs. cheap, disposable, and you have 20 of them.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-02-10 07:50:12 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Urgg Boolean wrote:
We have beat this topic to death, but I agree with the OP.

A few points to remember:
1) missile launchers and guns/lasers cannot be primaried by NPCs. Imagine the uproar if NPCs could start taking out all forms of primary DPS. Well, at least that would some sort of fair ... as in spread the pain.
2) Drones were never intended to be "consumables" like ammo and are priced accordingly. You really cannot think of them the same way you do ammo or crystals. I've ditched my drones to save my ship, but that's a different concept.
3) No aggro management - not that I have seen, and I've tried everything from TPs to reppers to DPSing. If there were a way to reliably control aggro, even if complex, we could have fun using it. As it is, it's only frustration, and instead of fun, it feels like work :: NOT FUN.

There are a bunch more points that we have made in the previous threads. But this seems like enough to rekindle flame wars...

- not spell checked -


1. *Cough*NPC Defender Missiles*Cough*
2. Good thing you can easily never lose a drone with the new AI. My only HS capable combat toon had literally 0 useful gunnery skills when I was working on grinding some standings for a new market toon. 0 Lost drones.
3. Drones go in, Drones go out. Drones go in, Drones go out. Wax on, Wax off. Aggro management.

You are not making too much sense to me:
1) missiles can be countered, projectiles cannot. Either way, nothing can primary the launchers/turrets directly like they can with your drones.
2) You sarcasm is too deep for me. I don't really know what you mean.
3) The Drone HokeyPokey : I gues it is one strategy, but it is NOT FUN.

Anyway, I'm nearly comatose - good night all.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#13 - 2013-02-10 07:53:31 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Urgg Boolean wrote:

You are not making too much sense to me:
1) missiles can be countered, projectiles cannot. Either way, nothing can primary the launchers/turrets directly like they can with your drones.
2) You sarcasm is too deep for me. I don't really know what you mean.
3) The Drone HokeyPokey : I gues it is one strategy, but it is NOT FUN.

Anyway, I'm nearly comatose - good night all.


1) And I can't carry a full rack of Large Railguns for Battleships, Small Autocannons for Frigates, and RR for fleetmates at the same time. Hey, look how different weapon systems are different and have different advantages and disadvantages. When was the last time an NPC frigate orbited too tightly for your Warrior IIs to hit them?
2) I meant that Drones are only as "consumable" as you allow them to be.
3) "If there were a way to reliably control aggro, even if complex, we could have fun using it." Ooops.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#14 - 2013-02-10 09:07:10 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

1. *Cough*NPC Defender Missiles*Cough*


I think that this ability was actually removed some time agoWhat?
I remember defenders being used against my complex Tengu before but now the rats seem to have stopped using them.
IIRC that happened when CCP introduced new defenders ( different sizes ) a while back.

Can't say about mission rats though as I don't do those ( only exploration content ). I don't know if there is any difference between mission and deadspace rats.

RubyPorto wrote:

2. Good thing you can easily never lose a drone with the new AI. My only HS capable combat toon had literally 0 useful gunnery
skills when I was working on grinding some standings for a new market toon. 0 Lost drones.


This might be the case in missions ( as I said before I don't do those ) but in complexes its quite different. Sometimes light and medium drones are literally popped in one volley ( especially when elite frigates are on the field ). It's kinda random but that makes it even worse. I have lost quite a lot of light/med drones that way, can't really react to that in some sites and light/med drones are killed very quickly ( even when used on Proteus, which gets higher drone durability bonuses ). Heavy and sentry drones are usually ok though.

Another thing is that it seems different sites have different aggro mechanics being applied.
For example in Guristas DED6 my ship is NEVER being targeted and the rats are raping my drones all the time ( light, med, heavy and sentry alike ).
Then there is Minor Annex where my light, heavy and sentry drones are never targeted ( rats target mediums here ).
In DED5 my sentries and heavies are raped by small-medium rats but battleships, which should be the one shooting those specific drones, ignore them all the time.
Then there are sites where frigates are ignoring light drones all the time.
All those sites have similar combination of rats.

It looks like aggro mechanics are not really consistent. They depend on the site. That's not really a problem though. Different sites == different approach, which is fine.

RubyPorto wrote:

3. Drones go in, Drones go out. Drones go in, Drones go out. Wax on, Wax off. Aggro management.


True but you have to admit that drone control UI is abysmal at bestLol

As a matter of fact the issue lays in drone UI itself.
When CCP introduces solid drone UI most problems with drones will be dealt with.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#15 - 2013-02-10 09:12:43 UTC
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
True but you have to admit that drone control UI is abysmal at bestLol


You will find no argument from me there. But I guess, like POSes, not enough people use drones for them to be worth fixing. Pirate

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Rian Kurr
Doomheim
#16 - 2013-02-10 10:00:00 UTC
As people have said...really did not notice much difference running my apoc...Then hopped into my dual repping Domi to help a corp mate with a mission gone bad.......lol bye bye drones..bye bye ship. Grabbed a pilgrim with td....drones flying free and clear. Run a load of missions with it since just for fun with no drone problem.....AI goes for ships their size first....MWD make a diff ?
Dalmont Delantee
Gecko Corp
#17 - 2013-02-10 10:07:31 UTC
Its called adapt and relearn. Changing your tactics depending on whats happening.

Still run missions (when and if I do) and ded space in my domi and it just means I have to be a little more active when I do. FAR better than mission botters having it easy.

Your not a mission botter moaning about this are you? Are you sure? :P
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#18 - 2013-02-10 11:29:49 UTC
The really scary thing is that it has taken CCP 10 years to come up with this AI.
Skorpynekomimi
#19 - 2013-02-10 11:33:09 UTC
Pop frigs yourself at range, sic the drones on the close ones only?
T1 drones, carry spares?

The amount of whining on OMG NO MOAR SENTRY DROOONES disgusts me. Adapt or die.

Economic PVP
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#20 - 2013-02-10 11:45:45 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
The really scary thing is that it has taken CCP 10 years to come up with this AI.


I'm not sure that's totally fair.

They developed it for Apocrypha, made it modular with Incursion, and applied it to normal rats with Retribution.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
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