These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#2181 - 2013-02-08 23:33:06 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Smilingmonk wrote:
Aprudena Gist wrote:
And you still give the ******* cyclone a split weapon system? for fucks sake


Which is a reason that most people don't / won't use it. I agree completely that CCP needs to make it a one weapon system and be done with it. It's so obvious what needs to be done that we just have to wonder why they don't do it....


CCP Fozzie has already commented on this. The two AC slots should be viewed as utility highs. That you have the choice to put AC there for more DPS or utility is a bonus. Most people will put neuts there instead. The Cyclone will be:

The fastest BC in the game.
It will have a great burst tank that does not depend on cap.
It will have two neuts or other form of utility.
It has damage type choice.


The tradeoff is that it has mediocre DPS compared to the other Battlecruisers.


I just realized why I like the new Cyclone so much - it's an oversized missile spewing Stabby <3
SamuelK
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2182 - 2013-02-09 00:23:14 UTC
Way to hit the Harbi with the Nerf Hammer so hard that its completely worthless now. Also, way to go keeping the Hurricane on the top of the heap. Ferox buff is neat. Brutix nerf is not. A whole lot of meh to my favorite ship class. Good work.
Mund Richard
#2183 - 2013-02-09 00:51:10 UTC
SamuelK wrote:
Way to hit the Harbi with the Nerf Hammer so hard that its completely worthless now. Also, way to go keeping the Hurricane on the top of the heap. Ferox buff is neat. Brutix nerf is not. A whole lot of meh to my favorite ship class. Good work.

If you would also point out which particular part you are so greatly unsatisfied with, and what do you think should be done to undo the unjust disadvantages?
Who knows, you might have spotted something the others haven't mentioned yet!

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#2184 - 2013-02-09 04:59:14 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
SamuelK wrote:
Way to hit the Harbi with the Nerf Hammer so hard that its completely worthless now. Also, way to go keeping the Hurricane on the top of the heap. Ferox buff is neat. Brutix nerf is not. A whole lot of meh to my favorite ship class. Good work.

If you would also point out which particular part you are so greatly unsatisfied with, and what do you think should be done to undo the unjust disadvantages?
Who knows, you might have spotted something the others haven't mentioned yet!

Yeah, not seeing it either. I'm seeing the effective PWG and CPU going up (don't need to fit another turret, so you have more spare CPU and PWG), I'm seeing the damage go up. I'm seeing tank drop a bit (now to more moderate standards). I'm seeing the drone bay go up (hooray for flexibility!)

The only thing I'm seeing is the mass going up and the cap recharge getting reduced to compensate for the less guns.
Seleucus Ontuas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2185 - 2013-02-09 06:51:08 UTC
Well, I take it from the lateness of the hour that it means Gallente are still stuck with two BCs with Active Rep Bonuses. Though I prefer flying Gallente, looks I'm still stuck flying Caldari and Minmatar. You know, you guys are making it harder to cross train for the future generations of EvE players, it would be a good idea if Gallente actually had a decent fleet BC.
Georgiy Giggle
Senclave
Apocalypse Now.
#2186 - 2013-02-09 11:07:25 UTC
Not seems like balancing.
It's a pure NERF!

Not mastering proprieties, won't become firmly established. - Confucius
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2187 - 2013-02-09 11:49:26 UTC
Georgiy Giggle wrote:
Not seems like balancing.
It's a pure NERF!

Nerfing is a subset of balancing ; and tier2 BC needed it.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#2188 - 2013-02-09 12:08:46 UTC
Seleucus Ontuas wrote:
Well, I take it from the lateness of the hour that it means Gallente are still stuck with two BCs with Active Rep Bonuses. Though I prefer flying Gallente, looks I'm still stuck flying Caldari and Minmatar. You know, you guys are making it harder to cross train for the future generations of EvE players, it would be a good idea if Gallente actually had a decent fleet BC.


To be more precise, we are stuck with two rep bonused ships of which only one can realistically use it, new triple rep Myrm looks at least decent.

It's wasted on Brutix due to cap-intensive guns, lack of mids and the nature of the ship- it relies on heavy close-range turret damage, and fitting active tank kills this damage output. It needs to MWD to get to do anything, has insanely huge sig and next to non-existent cap life when trying to run active tank while performing it's primary tasks.

MAAR+MAR Brutix tanks no better than XLASB Brutix but has less dps, speed and tracking, and choosing either over standard shield buffer gives you no EHP advantage. MAAR+2xMAR Brutix tanks more, but ~Electrons~.

If you buffer fit it, you'll waste a hull bonus and end up with a sluggish close-range BC with a bloated sig and mediocre tank and not significantly more dps than T1 cruisers. Or Drake.

Armor HP bonus? MWD bloom reduction bonus? Tracking bonus? Brutix simply needs something to make it a good choice for armor gangs.



.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2189 - 2013-02-09 12:39:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
SamuelK wrote:
Way to hit the Harbi with the Nerf Hammer so hard that its completely worthless now. Also, way to go keeping the Hurricane on the top of the heap. Ferox buff is neat. Brutix nerf is not. A whole lot of meh to my favorite ship class. Good work.


You're an idiot

Harbinger is better than it was and the brutix is as well..


EDIT: Also the rep bonus isn't wasted on the brutix

The brutix looks brilliant atm, at least on paper.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#2190 - 2013-02-09 17:10:37 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Roime wrote:


To be more precise, we are stuck with two rep bonused ships of which only one can realistically use it, new triple rep Myrm looks at least decent.


Both the Brutix and the Myrm will be usable, they just won't be (anywhere near as) usable in larger gangs like every other combat BC. What'cha gonna do? We've all said our piece. Time to move on.
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#2191 - 2013-02-09 18:04:32 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
SamuelK wrote:
Way to hit the Harbi with the Nerf Hammer so hard that its completely worthless now. Also, way to go keeping the Hurricane on the top of the heap. Ferox buff is neat. Brutix nerf is not. A whole lot of meh to my favorite ship class. Good work.


You're an idiot

Harbinger is better than it was and the brutix is as well..


EDIT: Also the rep bonus isn't wasted on the brutix

The brutix looks brilliant atm, at least on paper.


On paper is all well and good but this isn't a paper-based game Roll

Seriously, it's on sisi, go and try it. I did. It's not a good ship as it stands. There is absolutely no reason to choose it over the myrm for the one narrow role it can perform. Fozzie claimed the myrm and brutix were different to fly - but I don't see that at all. They are identical in every tactical respect with the myrm being better in every conceivable way except when the target has a lot of smartbombs to wipeout the drones. That is the one and only occasion the brutix would be better.

Fozzie, please, so many have pointed out that this is a bad rebalance of the brutix; many have suggested alternative bonuses to the current rep bonus; all agree that the brutix is going to be next to useless as it stands (pg, cpu, bonuses, sig radius). Even an option to use autocannons has gone with this change - we lost a turret for a bigger weapon bonus; this may be good for fitting but it's rubbish for versatility. Why is there such an enormous reluctance to do something about this? If we're missing the reason why we're all wrong please could you explain it? Throw us a bone here, for the life of me this makes no sense in an other wise reasonable balancing effort.
Cron Moonvexor
Halloween Mining Party
#2192 - 2013-02-09 18:27:28 UTC
Sorry if this were asked, but

why you giving Prophecy 75mbit bandwith instead 80?
75mbit = 2heavies + 2meds + 1lightdrone
80mbit = 2heavies + 3 meds

so i think, 80mbit\s won't be overpowered, but will be more practical.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2193 - 2013-02-09 18:29:30 UTC
Nikuno wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
SamuelK wrote:
Way to hit the Harbi with the Nerf Hammer so hard that its completely worthless now. Also, way to go keeping the Hurricane on the top of the heap. Ferox buff is neat. Brutix nerf is not. A whole lot of meh to my favorite ship class. Good work.


You're an idiot

Harbinger is better than it was and the brutix is as well..


EDIT: Also the rep bonus isn't wasted on the brutix

The brutix looks brilliant atm, at least on paper.


On paper is all well and good but this isn't a paper-based game Roll

Seriously, it's on sisi, go and try it. I did. It's not a good ship as it stands. There is absolutely no reason to choose it over the myrm for the one narrow role it can perform. Fozzie claimed the myrm and brutix were different to fly - but I don't see that at all. They are identical in every tactical respect with the myrm being better in every conceivable way except when the target has a lot of smartbombs to wipeout the drones. That is the one and only occasion the brutix would be better.

Fozzie, please, so many have pointed out that this is a bad rebalance of the brutix; many have suggested alternative bonuses to the current rep bonus; all agree that the brutix is going to be next to useless as it stands (pg, cpu, bonuses, sig radius). Even an option to use autocannons has gone with this change - we lost a turret for a bigger weapon bonus; this may be good for fitting but it's rubbish for versatility. Why is there such an enormous reluctance to do something about this? If we're missing the reason why we're all wrong please could you explain it? Throw us a bone here, for the life of me this makes no sense in an other wise reasonable balancing effort.


The cap is fine, the tank is good, the speed is good, the dps is great

The only bad thing about it is that its not perfect for blob warfare and i count that as a plus.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Tragedy
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2194 - 2013-02-09 19:38:41 UTC
Please, please don't keep that repper bonus on the brutix. Its completely wasted, other people have pointed out why in very articulate well thought out ways. Why not add a tracking bonus so its the thoraxes big brother, like it should be. Anything, just not the repper.
Mund Richard
#2195 - 2013-02-09 20:49:57 UTC
Tragedy wrote:
Please, please don't keep that repper bonus on the brutix. Its completely wasted, other people have pointed out why in very articulate well thought out ways. Why not add a tracking bonus so its the thoraxes big brother, like it should be. Anything, just not the repper.

Personally, I'd rather have a falloff, and leave the Thorax with the tracking, we don't need BCs being good against frigs.

The way you put it, I'd expect someone coming around suggesting you stay put and be happy it's not a gun cap bonus. Roll
(which would still be a buff for any shield or buffer setup)

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#2196 - 2013-02-09 20:50:21 UTC
Has anybody done the Myrm vs. Prophesy comparison yet? Do all of the advantages of the Prophesy
(speed, resistance bonus, smaller sig radius, better distribution of HP for armor tanking, BETTER PG and CPU - WTF?)
at the cost of 25m3 of drone bandwidth make sense?

Prophesy may be better active tanker than the Myrm too - AND it will perform well in fleets due to the resistance bonus.

meh.
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#2197 - 2013-02-09 21:17:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikuno
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Nikuno wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
SamuelK wrote:
Way to hit the Harbi with the Nerf Hammer so hard that its completely worthless now. Also, way to go keeping the Hurricane on the top of the heap. Ferox buff is neat. Brutix nerf is not. A whole lot of meh to my favorite ship class. Good work.


You're an idiot

Harbinger is better than it was and the brutix is as well..


EDIT: Also the rep bonus isn't wasted on the brutix

The brutix looks brilliant atm, at least on paper.


On paper is all well and good but this isn't a paper-based game Roll

Seriously, it's on sisi, go and try it. I did. It's not a good ship as it stands. There is absolutely no reason to choose it over the myrm for the one narrow role it can perform. Fozzie claimed the myrm and brutix were different to fly - but I don't see that at all. They are identical in every tactical respect with the myrm being better in every conceivable way except when the target has a lot of smartbombs to wipeout the drones. That is the one and only occasion the brutix would be better.

Fozzie, please, so many have pointed out that this is a bad rebalance of the brutix; many have suggested alternative bonuses to the current rep bonus; all agree that the brutix is going to be next to useless as it stands (pg, cpu, bonuses, sig radius). Even an option to use autocannons has gone with this change - we lost a turret for a bigger weapon bonus; this may be good for fitting but it's rubbish for versatility. Why is there such an enormous reluctance to do something about this? If we're missing the reason why we're all wrong please could you explain it? Throw us a bone here, for the life of me this makes no sense in an other wise reasonable balancing effort.


The cap is fine, the tank is good, the speed is good, the dps is great

The only bad thing about it is that its not perfect for blob warfare and i count that as a plus.


Is that the myrm or the brutix?

It could be read as either.

That's the problem; they're the same ship with one tiny difference - and the myrm is better in every situation except when facing smartbombs.

This is not what I expect from balancing. It's not what the majority of people posting seem to want either. And you also pointedly ignored the issues I raised about this myrm/brutix twinning.
Saul Elsyn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2198 - 2013-02-09 22:16:10 UTC
Honestly... I wish they'd balance the ships based a bit on what the ships look like and give each of them specific roles. I still say that 'Combat' Ships need to be divided into two separate roles... Attack/Assault and Skirmish/Bombardment. One stands off and pounds the crud out of their opponents while the other charges forward and beats them to a pulp at close range.

I agree, the Myrmidon and Brutix really need to be looked at again, the Myrmidon outperforms the Brutix in most ways. I personally think they should go back and get them to work in two separate roles. This is just an example of how I'd handle the Battlecruiser classes...

Bombardment Myrmidon:
10% increase to Drone Control Range per Level, 10% increase to Drone Damage and Hitpoints per Level
Role Bonus: 50% increase to Medium Hybrid Turret Optimal Range

Assault Brutix:
5% increase to Medium Hybrid Turret Damage per Level, 7.5% increase to Armor Repairer amount per Level
Role Bonus: 50% reduction to Armor Repairer capacitor use
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2199 - 2013-02-09 23:46:50 UTC
Nikuno wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Nikuno wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
SamuelK wrote:
Way to hit the Harbi with the Nerf Hammer so hard that its completely worthless now. Also, way to go keeping the Hurricane on the top of the heap. Ferox buff is neat. Brutix nerf is not. A whole lot of meh to my favorite ship class. Good work.


You're an idiot

Harbinger is better than it was and the brutix is as well..


EDIT: Also the rep bonus isn't wasted on the brutix

The brutix looks brilliant atm, at least on paper.


On paper is all well and good but this isn't a paper-based game Roll

Seriously, it's on sisi, go and try it. I did. It's not a good ship as it stands. There is absolutely no reason to choose it over the myrm for the one narrow role it can perform. Fozzie claimed the myrm and brutix were different to fly - but I don't see that at all. They are identical in every tactical respect with the myrm being better in every conceivable way except when the target has a lot of smartbombs to wipeout the drones. That is the one and only occasion the brutix would be better.

Fozzie, please, so many have pointed out that this is a bad rebalance of the brutix; many have suggested alternative bonuses to the current rep bonus; all agree that the brutix is going to be next to useless as it stands (pg, cpu, bonuses, sig radius). Even an option to use autocannons has gone with this change - we lost a turret for a bigger weapon bonus; this may be good for fitting but it's rubbish for versatility. Why is there such an enormous reluctance to do something about this? If we're missing the reason why we're all wrong please could you explain it? Throw us a bone here, for the life of me this makes no sense in an other wise reasonable balancing effort.


The cap is fine, the tank is good, the speed is good, the dps is great

The only bad thing about it is that its not perfect for blob warfare and i count that as a plus.


Is that the myrm or the brutix?

It could be read as either.

That's the problem; they're the same ship with one tiny difference - and the myrm is better in every situation except when facing smartbombs.

This is not what I expect from balancing. It's not what the majority of people posting seem to want either. And you also pointedly ignored the issues I raised about this myrm/brutix twinning.


Myrm relies on ogres to do dps and ogres are ****.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#2200 - 2013-02-09 23:48:16 UTC
Myrmidon will be far worse than the Brutix at 20km and beyond, and basically for any fleet duty (where your ennemies are more than three, when your drones actually have to move). No, the myrm is not always better because of the hilarious mobility of heavy drones and sentries, on top of their vulnerability ; he is also slower and heavier ; and the Brutix have an utility high !

And the Maelstrom never had any problem living with a shield boosting bonus and regularly going into blob warfare. Reducing ability to go in huge blob never was solely determined by bonuses, or ships like the Apocalypse (or even the Navy Apoc BTW) would never had saw a fleet fight.

The question is "is the Brutix a bad ship ?" And the only answers provided are "no, because the myrm is better at soloing", which is almost irrelevant.