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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2121 - 2013-02-07 14:56:32 UTC
Morgred wrote:
arbitrator: droneboat
curse: droneboat with ECM
pilgrim: droneboat with ECM
(makes sense)

prophecy: droneboat with half lasers and half missiles
damnation: missileboat
absolution: laserboat
harbinger: laserboat
Oracle: laserboat
(this makes no sense)

I propose the harbinger be made a droneboat, as it has no t2 variants it would conflict with, proph has a t2 laserboat and a t2 missileboat but t1 is half one, half the other and half something else entirely? this makes no sense to me.

Totally makes sense.
The Command ships rip out the drone bay to fit in all the warfare link computers. And the redundant weapon systems get slimmed down also, into the two varients.
How does that not make sense?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#2122 - 2013-02-07 17:09:13 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Lot of midslot + drones (capless) make the myrm better for solo.
Railguns make the brutix better for fleet.
Care to make a decent case for the Brutix railgun niche?
FleetAdmiralHarper
Kitchen Sink Kapitals
#2123 - 2013-02-07 17:30:29 UTC  |  Edited by: FleetAdmiralHarper
Ferox is my favorite looking bc hull..
personally i like range weapons, but the range bonuses are USELESS. if anything it needs a damage or rate of fire bonus.
caldari ships are way to slow to get and keep/hold range.

i dont really care for rails. they are useless and underpowered on caldari ships.

as the rest of us good pilots know, you have DPS, then you have effective dps. and the EDPS of rails is nonexistent vs most ships/fits. the gaylente (*SPIT*) can redeem themselves with damage bonuses, but the caldari dont have those. so at-least give them rate of fire or something.


also i wouldn't do silly kinetic damage bonus for drakes, thats not practical in actual combat. give them rate of fire, or proper damage bonuses...

caldari are suppose to be the "missile race" right? well lets make them look and act like it. -.-...



Ps CCP: until i get a gurista missile spewing, drone sending ferox and rokh of awesomeness, keep my missile slots on those 2 ships or ill cut you, and club some random russian.

i didnt see anything about the missile slots being there on the updated ferox, but you didnt say they were getting removed either. and i do so enjoy my missile ferox, night hawk wannabe.
Lili Lu
#2124 - 2013-02-07 18:21:26 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Lot of midslot + drones (capless) make the myrm better for solo.
Railguns make the brutix better for fleet.
Care to make a decent case for the Brutix railgun niche?


Ferox:
Battlecruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to all Shield Resistances
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range
Fixed Bonus:
Can fit Warfare Link modules
Slot layout: 8 H (+1), 5 M, 4 L, 7 turrets (+1)
Fittings: 1250 PWG (+175), 510 CPU (+35)

Brutix:
Battlecruiser skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Armor Repairer effectiveness
Fixed Bonus:
Can fit Warfare Link modules
Slot layout: 7 H, 4 M, 6 L (+1), 6 turrets (-1)
Fittings: 1125 PWG (-25), 435 CPU (+10)

Bolded the pg and cpu. Seriously wtf.

Precisely. Ferox has an optimal bonus. Ferox has more pg and cpu. Why would anyone use a Bruitx for rails? Just get a Ferox. So XG is correct. The Gallente BCs have no role differntiation. They are both close range brawlers. And will probably still lose to ASB fit shield ships even with the prenerfed and cap dependant new armor stuff.

Now if instead the Brutix got some pg and got an armor hp bonus instead of a repper bonus you might see some rail fleet fits (even if medium long range guns aren't very good).
Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic
#2125 - 2013-02-07 19:46:50 UTC
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
Travasty Space wrote:

Projectiles don't have the highest paper dps, that belongs to Lasers or Blasters.


I've never said about highest dps, just high actual dps. If projectiles had higher dps than blasters they would be absurdly overpowered.


"Actually high dps, lowest is probably missiles - both on paper and projection."

Highlighted the important bits.

To mare wrote:
so many words to just prove you dont have a clue about projected dps and the difference between shooting in optimal and shooting in falloff


All my numbers are accurate and as are my points.
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2126 - 2013-02-07 20:16:47 UTC
About Cyclone/Ferox:
This is only an idea. I'm well aware that this will not really fix much.

I have a counters-suggestion since everybody is around making DPS/Dmg or doing things that hurt... It is not really a good one though. I'm not all too sure if Signature Resolutions of Turrets are that decisive in to-Hit calculations nowadays. Nonetheless, it is a notable factor when shooting upon smaller targets.

More or less, it is about range, but perhaps this could be worth it. I don't know well the Ferox is with Rails, as I never used it with such - but provided it is used as a Blaster/Railboat, maybe this could help?


How about an additional role bonus for Ferox next to its ganglink bonus:
- x% bonus-reduction to Signature Resolution for Ferox' turrets - Combine with Optimal Range bonus and a Tracking Comp, this could be dangerous vs Cruisers and smaller.

Cyclone could receive a nice (read: decent) Explosion Radius reduction bonus, or a decent Explosion Velocity bonus, so that its HVYs or HAMs could really hurt.

This is more about actually hitting targets more often, meaning more dmg than usual, and actually making slightly higher DPS as misses do not occur that often - and slow Explo-Velocity/Big ExploRadius dealing more damage as you hit.

The suggestion is more about in-battlefield action, not 1vs1 staring-at-each-other EFT duels.
However, I do not know how THAT significant Sig-Resolution of Turrets are for the Ferox in this case.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Mund Richard
#2127 - 2013-02-07 20:25:54 UTC
Don't really need a BC-sized frig-eater.
That's what (papertank) dessies are for (and the RLML Caracal, think this is exactly the reason why neither Drake or Cyclone have a bonus to those).

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#2128 - 2013-02-07 21:03:01 UTC
Vayn Baxtor wrote:
About Cyclone/Ferox:
This is only an idea. I'm well aware that this will not really fix much.

I have a counters-suggestion since everybody is around making DPS/Dmg or doing things that hurt... It is not really a good one though. I'm not all too sure if Signature Resolutions of Turrets are that decisive in to-Hit calculations nowadays. Nonetheless, it is a notable factor when shooting upon smaller targets.

More or less, it is about range, but perhaps this could be worth it. I don't know well the Ferox is with Rails, as I never used it with such - but provided it is used as a Blaster/Railboat, maybe this could help?


How about an additional role bonus for Ferox next to its ganglink bonus:
- x% bonus-reduction to Signature Resolution for Ferox' turrets - Combine with Optimal Range bonus and a Tracking Comp, this could be dangerous vs Cruisers and smaller.


Decreasing a turret's sig resolution is the same as increasing its tracking. So it's just a different way of giving a tracking bonus. And as someone said above, I don't think we should make BCs too good at hitting small stuff, so I'd be wary of tracking bonuses anyway.
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2129 - 2013-02-07 21:03:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Vayn Baxtor
What else is there to be had if things were to come out as they are now?

Somewhere, I understand the Cyclone will be different with missiles, and at times, missiles are more reliable than turrets.
But for Ferox? I have doubts it will be standing that well between Drake and Naga post-Tiericide.

edit: typoes

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Alek Row
Silent Step
#2130 - 2013-02-07 21:32:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Alek Row
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:

I have not forgot those, I posted about advantages of Minmatar, not about disadvantages.

Lowest optimal is over-compensated by great falloff and enough fitting slots for a few TE/TC in most cases.
Actually high dps, lowest is probably missiles - both on paper and projection. Here are 2 factors:
a) Selectable damage => Projectiles exploit resist holes of a target while lasers/hybrids are stuck with 1 damage pattern.
b) Minmatar ships are often have powerful RoF bonus or even double damage bonuses instead of useless placeholders like Turret Capacitor Usage.
Good damage projection on falloff range because of a good tracking via spare slots for TE/TC and ability to use close-range ammo for all situations. Other turrets force you to choose between range and dps/tracking, for Minmatar it's just always good dps/tracking/range.

I was talking about weapon systems because Fozzy stated that he likes drawbacks on weapon systems to make them more interesting. I would personally prefer to strip some power from Projectiles and build it back onto Minamatar hulls that use them.

Answer to your last question: I rarely fly T1 sub-bs ships so I cannot fully answer it.
Thrasher is still best Destroyer.
Scythe is probably best T1 "Logi".
Slasher is probably best T1 "Interceptor".
Other rebalanced ships are not best in class but still good.


At this moment what ever you think it should happen to ACs, doesn't make sense.
You are you adding all sort of bonus to ACs: TCs, TEs, slots, ship bonuses. You are not seeing the ACs at their "raw" state (which I understand and agree with, you can't talk about the weapons without their ships). But since they're re-balancing ships I don't see how is it possible to change any weapon system at this stage without breaking or overpowering a lot of stuff... but you never know.

Anyway, Trasher is still one of the best if not the best, but Scythe? Slasher as the best T1 Inty?
What's their relation with those mighty AC's? ;-)

Let them rebalance ships first, and draw conclusions about the weapon systems later.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2131 - 2013-02-07 22:09:01 UTC
Yonis Kador wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Amarr have always had a strong predilection towards drones. Along side their line of obviously drone dedicated T1 and T2 cruisers many of their other ships (BS in particular) have always sported larger drone bays than any other race but the Gallante. True, Gallante put a stronger emphasis on pure drone damage but for bay size and variety available Amarr has always ranked highly.


Well Ranger, the Corax has a 450m3 cargo bay.

Using your logic, I guess it has a "strong predilection" toward being an Industrial ship.

The reason the Arbi t2 variants have that huge drone bay is because their primary attribute is a cap-hogging energy weapon bonus. Amarr = energy weapons. But the t1 Arbi is still, with no energy weapon bonus combined with drone bonuses, pretty much the only ship that fits the "Amarr drone ship" bill. One was already too many but the Curse and Pilgrim were such cool pvp ships, (because of the weapon bonuses - not the drones) nobody cared - myself included.

But this new blasphemy will put Gallente drones throughout the entire Amarr fleet and while that might look great on some balance spreadsheet somewhere - when I think about the practical implications of those changes, and the disregard for established thematic continuity, and the thousands upon thousands of NEW Amarr ships about to be stuffed with Gallente drones, my blood pressure rises.

It's an attack on the soul of my people.

Opinions vary.

"Obviously."

YK


Big smile Well, Gallante ships seem to always tend towards larger cargo bays. Seems to be (another) racial tendency.

The root issue that needs to be addressed is that Amarr (and Caldari) drones need to be reworked to actually be useful. I think that would resolve any lingering RP issues you may have. Smile

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2132 - 2013-02-07 22:20:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Ryomo Shimei wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Ryomo Shimei wrote:
marcus is right .. the heavy missiles got nerved ... and the heavy assault missiles has way to low flyrange compared to other short range weapons which can easy outrun em in range .. and since caldari ships are basicly the slowest you cant even get in range with ham + with only 6 launchers in the drake and the lowerd tank ability makes the last usefull missile boat in the cruiser level useless for caldari since in missions many npc use defender missiles but no use for example tracking desruptors ... so drake is also useless in missions now so whatfor even go for missiles since they cant be used properly .... you have way to less dps ( since if ya have you have nearly no tank ) or way to less range .. especialy since ham need nearly 5km to get at maxspeed which for example reduaces your range from 15 km down to 11 ... and if i see that an minmatar player can fire easyly 22km and is faster caldari is out of use ... i hope ccp r4econsider the missiles again ... not only in pvp case but also in pve ..... or give as much rats that use defender missiles anti turrent equipment aswell so that the turrent users know how it feals when you cant kill something

If Marcus wants to avoid confusion in the future he shouldn't say "rockets" when he apparently means heavy missiles (or all missiles).

Also adjustments are being made to missile range calculations so that what you see will pretty much be what you get... meaning if it says 15km then it means 15km. A variety of skills and rigs will also now apply to HAM's that previously had no effect on them... you did train those skills as a missile user right? If not, time to get busy.

Of course, heavy missiles are still an excellent weapons system compared with all other medium long range weapons systems but I'll stop so as not to distract you from your panic and hand wringing. Smile



you are wrong the 15 km still are not 15km ... the missiles still need time to accellerate to full speed which takes away some km from the range so basicly atm 15km resuld in an efective range of 11km on an not moving target

and besides even is you now have skills that fit they are still way to short in range compared to other short range weapon systems and is an drake lost an missile atm its an loss of 1/7 dmg ... after the patch its 1/6 which is way to easy be done and an bad increase in dmg loss and since th defender missiles always hit it is an loss ... an turrent player even under an tracking desruptor can still hit with all guns and if ya speak of ballancing thats a point which always had caldari being weak and easyly to blow there dps so for the drake an enhanced launcher and less bonus would be the fairer way to adjust the drake

and then .. against an caldari you basicly only need to give as much as possible to kinetic ress since your forced to use em due to bonus ... all other factions can change the ammo as they like and so basicly the dmg efects they do so an +dons to heavy and heavy assault missiles instead of an +to one dmg type needs to be there in my eyes ... else all will play minmatar sooner or later because it will be the only logic choice then


I really shouldn't respond to this until you take the time to use common courtesy and actually read the post you are responding to.

However, without wasting any more time than necessary on it...

I said that range calculations are going to be reworked to make the listed range more closely match actual range. Key words: "are going to be".

As to the rest, I get the strong feeling you really don't have any experience using HAM's in actual combat situations. HAM's are excellent IF USED CORRECTLY. No, you can't sit at 70km and kite your target with HAM's... that's not thier function as a close range weapons system. You need to be in a brawling setup (or a Cavalry setup as they used to be called) and use appropriate tactics. If done even half way well, they can be devastating. I'd go into the various tactics you can use to get even more effective range out of them but I think you can probably figure them out on your own if you think about it a bit.

I also notice you again completely ingore heavy missile setups, which is fine but it shows a certain lack of flexibility on your part. Heavy missiles are still very, very effective for a longer range alternative... if the rest of your fit compliments their use (as well as your tactics).

Drakes will continue to be one of the best BC's in common use for both PVE and PVP, and if anything I'm suprised they didn't cut their resistance bonus and replace it with a range bonus... but I understand that would put a lot of mission runners in a bad position.

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Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#2133 - 2013-02-07 22:28:47 UTC
Change the Myrmidon's rep bonus to a drone tracking bonus. You will fix the Brutix vs Myrmidon same tank issue. The Myrm has always had it's triple rep niche that worked and the Brutix has always been a bit broken. As such changing the Myrm rather then the Brutix may seem a bit odd. It's probably the only way to create a clear delineation between the Gallente BCs though. It also fits with how most of the Gallente ship line works as well.

The Drake is a more difficult proposition. If you give it a missile velocity bonus it could obsolete the Caracal again. But then again the Caracal has become quite the nano ship, so maybe not. Difficult to say.

Either way, I'd say the Drake vs Ferox and Myrm vs Brutix are the major sources of contention at this point.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2134 - 2013-02-07 22:50:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
+1 to that idea, but either way one or the other needs to go. Drone speed would make a lot of sense for BC combat which needs heavies to be faster.
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2135 - 2013-02-07 22:58:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Personally I'm trying to figure out what the "different roles" these two ships will fill.
Myrm - Active tanking 1v1 ship - that is good at close range and uses drones (and turrets) to kill the opponent.
Brutix - Active tanking 1v1 boat - that is good at close range and uses turrets to (and drones) kill the opponent.

Some role differentiation please.

Lot of midslot + drones (capless) make the myrm better for solo.
Railguns make the brutix better for fleet.


Why use a rail gun Brutix in a fleet, vice Ferox? I mean you can I suppose but then, as usual, your flying a boat that is not using it's 2 bonuses. With a rail Ferox you get the shield resist and better range. You might think that the range bonus isn't as cool as the damage, but with the ferox you can use a closer in ammo type and match things up quite nicely. Also look at the differences in base shield HP and sig size. All adds up to not the most ideal rail boat. If you really really wanted to rail gun support a fleet with a Gal boat you could just go with a Talos no?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#2136 - 2013-02-07 23:34:41 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Change the Myrmidon's rep bonus to a drone tracking bonus. You will fix the Brutix vs Myrmidon same tank issue. The Myrm has always had it's triple rep niche that worked and the Brutix has always been a bit broken. As such changing the Myrm rather then the Brutix may seem a bit odd. It's probably the only way to create a clear delineation between the Gallente BCs though. It also fits with how most of the Gallente ship line works as well.
.
I think the goal for many of us Gallente pilots is to have a valid fleet ship. Drone boat and active reps don't really fit that mold and ought to be combined together.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2137 - 2013-02-07 23:43:30 UTC
Travasty Space wrote:
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
Travasty Space wrote:

Projectiles don't have the highest paper dps, that belongs to Lasers or Blasters.


I've never said about highest dps, just high actual dps. If projectiles had higher dps than blasters they would be absurdly overpowered.


"Actually high dps, lowest is probably missiles - both on paper and projection."

Highlighted the important bits.

To mare wrote:
so many words to just prove you dont have a clue about projected dps and the difference between shooting in optimal and shooting in falloff


All my numbers are accurate and as are my points.



Paper, dps, EFT and pyfa dps... gimmick !

How the heck can you talk about whatever gimmick paper dps brutix when Ferox can do the same at much different distance and actually apply it?

I don't care EFT/Pyfa show 1bazillion dps at 1.5km, I don't care at all, all I care is that using the Ferox at over web/scram range I'll be applying far mode dps than the lol gimmick bazillion DPS Brutix, and I'll kill it without a ounce of doubt.
Faster, more tank, enough dps at ranges Brutix can't even do with rails in optimal...

C'mon, common sense some one or some sand over your eyes is just enough the moment it's signed "CCP" ?

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2138 - 2013-02-07 23:54:52 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Either way, I'd say the Drake vs Ferox and Myrm vs Brutix are the major sources of contention at this point.



At this very moment it's no match for Brutix vs Ferox (even less vs Drake) and without gimmick triple rep Myrmidon vs Drake I'd give the Drake advantage without a doubt because:

1-plus lol reps = less low slots for buffer
2-lol reps aka "I micromanage warcraft like a boss" are funny vs noobs, one you are out of cap boosters you're just another idiot dieing and giving another gimmick killmail

Drake boosted with some implants it's about 850dps with about 90K EHP (high resists) and a huge natural shield regen.


Good luck finding noobs and idiots for those elite Eve players, gate and station games to prove/balance Gallente armor tanks are uber it's probably the most idiot think I've ever read about in whatever MMO game and god knows Eve is by far "special" nerds staging point. Well at this point I'm actually ashamed of sharing some of my free time with those, I don't feel very special but actually really stupid to accept such idiocy level.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#2139 - 2013-02-08 00:13:34 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

Big smile [snip] The root issue that needs to be addressed is that Amarr (and Caldari) drones need to be reworked to actually be useful. I think that would resolve any lingering RP issues you may have. Smile



Negative. Amarr drones will never outpower Gallente drones. I'd argue against it if it were proposed. The Gallente are the drone race. So my primary concern, that usage of my enemy's tech is being incentivized throughout the Amarr fleet will not change.

Besides, I don't see all races being made to suffer equally with each race having a BC being repurposed as a drone boat. The Prophecy is the red-headed stepchild here.

Let's take 2 missile launchers off the Drake, reduce it's powergrid, shields, hull, and align time - but increase the size of its drone bay - and see how the Caldari feel about that.

YK
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#2140 - 2013-02-08 00:16:05 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:
+1 to that idea, but either way one or the other needs to go. Drone speed would make a lot of sense for BC combat which needs heavies to be faster.
Either that or give it a unique bonus to drone speed (overall) so those Ogres can get to their targets(and keep up!) like they are Hammerheads!

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