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BUFF the Dragoon! - Amarr hulls needs love
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ijustTOOKyourMONEY
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-02-05 17:06:04 UTC  |  Edited by: IjustTOOKyourMONEY
Per: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=74231

Dragoon is used the least amount and is only 25% used and maybe even lower of what the other new destroyers is used by count.

TRULY pathetic ship, slow as hell, short-range, everything dies too quickly, only 2 mids!!!

Way to create balance, always amarr ships getting the end of the shaft. Oh and drone ship for PvP? I lol'd

Who agrees?
ijustTOOKyourMONEY
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-02-05 17:09:43 UTC
Here's the numbers to back it up. CLEARLY Dragoon is not being USED AT ALL!!

PvP in December 2012

Number of Ships Destroyed in PvP

4,959 - Algos

1,800 - Dragoon

- Percentage of PvP Losses

1.7% - Algos

0.6% - Dragoon

Number of Ships Destroyed by NPCs

1,597 - Algos

333 - Dragoon

Final Blows in PvP Made by Ship Type

3,121 - Algos

862 - Dragoon

- Percentage of Final Blows

1.1% - Algos

0.3% - Dragoon
Misspi en Divalone
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-02-05 17:42:48 UTC
I'll give you a famous quote: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Just because a ship or ship type is used less then others does not automatically mean it's bad. And besides the numbers show it actually is being used so your statement:
Quote:
CLEARLY Dragoon is not being USED AT ALL!!
is kinda lousy as an argument isn't it? The next time you might want to back up these kind of requests with a little more and definitely better arguments other then pointing to statistics.

Consider it might just be that players just haven't found out how to best use the Dragoon or it is best used as a more supportive destroyer so you don't need or even want the majority of destroyers/ships in gang being Dragoons. It's unique features kinda point to that is my personal view.
ijustTOOKyourMONEY
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-02-05 17:47:38 UTC
Misspi en Divalone wrote:
I'll give you a famous quote: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Just because a ship or ship type is used less then others does not automatically mean it's bad. And besides the numbers show it actually is being used so your statement:
Quote:
CLEARLY Dragoon is not being USED AT ALL!!
is kinda lousy as an argument isn't it? The next time you might want to back up these kind of requests with a little more and definitely better arguments other then pointing to statistics.

Consider it might just be that players just haven't found out how to best use the Dragoon or it is best used as a more supportive destroyer so you don't need or even want the majority of destroyers/ships in gang being Dragoons. It's unique features kinda point to that is my personal view.


Dude your a fool. Speaking statistics to me, I know the dragoon is not being used. I have mains in null sec in big alliances when i see a ship type dragoon in overview i wouldn't know what it is because I RARELY see 1. Maybe seen it once if ever. So from my perspective + the dev post I can guarantee you and even wager all my money it is the least used period.

And least used is not good, Dev's make a ship asset that's not used at all, good job CCP
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#5 - 2013-02-05 18:27:15 UTC
Have you flown the dragoon?

It out-right counters kiting frigates and can make energy brawlers DPS non-existent. Having 2 mids works if you fit right.

I have no idea why people fit missile and lasers to this hull - dump someones cap if they get close and your 1 -small neut will keep them capped out. At that point it's a 1-sided story.The dominix, curse and pilgrim have made a long and impressive career out of this.
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#6 - 2013-02-05 18:35:47 UTC
Hypothesis: Players who like flying drone boats are predominantly Gallente-skilled and their first inclination is to look for ships of that race.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#7 - 2013-02-05 19:55:15 UTC
Since when was something not being used often evidence for it being bad?
Belthazor4011
Battle BV Redux
#8 - 2013-02-05 20:54:46 UTC
ijustTOOKyourMONEY wrote:
Said a lot of dumb rude things


Congrats on having mains first of all, not that you can have more than one main but we'll look over that.

In big alliances as well, wow aren't you cool. How about you use one of those to rant on the forums instead of this piece of garbage alt eh?

Anyways I will take that wager, least used by which yard stick? Did you know Amarr is the least chosen race in EVE so therefore their ships are flown in smaller numbers than other races?

And at the end you blame CCP for you not liking a ship, dude this isnt 'American Idol'. Or we'd all be in a Drake, luckely CCP thinks about their development and stears clear of loud mouth dumbasses like yourself.

Also you have a nice day Big smile
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9 - 2013-02-05 21:28:42 UTC
Quote:
Number of Ships Destroyed in PvP

4,959 - Algos

1,800 - Dragoon


So what you're saying is that the Dragoon is dying much less often than the poor Algos because it is incredibly overpowered and the only people dying in their overpowered Dragoons are the clueless newbies who can't use it to its full potential. Conclusion: nerf the Dragoon. The evidence is indisputable.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#10 - 2013-02-06 01:48:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
The range bonus has no real use, any frig that needs to be in scram range will die anyway regardless of the silly neut range and any frig that wants to kite won't get caught by it. It doesn't do anything useful. The ONLY use it has is when doing Bloodraider pve because they have a tendency to keep you at 9km while you're webbed and neuted. So the bonus is for PVE purposes as there is ZERO realistic use for it in PVP.

Anyone claiming it has a use in PVP should state the exact scenario they think it's beneficial and I'll give you enough reasons to explain to you why you're an idiot for thinking that this actually happens. Lets see how many of the above posters come up with this amazing scenario where it's actually useful, I highly doubt any of them will.



Kahega Amielden wrote:
Since when was something not being used often evidence for it being bad?

dude, you're better than this.
Tsobai Hashimoto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-02-06 03:06:08 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
The range bonus has no real use, any frig that needs to be in scram range will die anyway regardless of the silly neut range and any frig that wants to kite won't get caught by it. It doesn't do anything useful. The ONLY use it has is when doing Bloodraider pve because they have a tendency to keep you at 9km while you're webbed and neuted. So the bonus is for PVE purposes as there is ZERO realistic use for it in PVP.

Anyone claiming it has a use in PVP should state the exact scenario they think it's beneficial and I'll give you enough reasons to explain to you why you're an idiot for thinking that this actually happens. Lets see how many of the above posters come up with this amazing scenario where it's actually useful, I highly doubt any of them will.



Kahega Amielden wrote:
Since when was something not being used often evidence for it being bad?

dude, you're better than this.




dragoon on plex beacon at 0km.....scram. nuet nuet nuet. drones already out...nuet nuet nuet



or. sit at 0km. web with no point fitted nuet nuet nuet kill! oh he warped? k i take the plex. push sov and earned 38k lp in a cheap dessy


im in this plex to earn isk and win a war. if i get a kill cool deal
Taoist Dragon
x Never Regret x
#12 - 2013-02-06 04:22:16 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
The range bonus has no real use, any frig that needs to be in scram range will die anyway regardless of the silly neut range and any frig that wants to kite won't get caught by it. It doesn't do anything useful. The ONLY use it has is when doing Bloodraider pve because they have a tendency to keep you at 9km while you're webbed and neuted. So the bonus is for PVE purposes as there is ZERO realistic use for it in PVP.

Anyone claiming it has a use in PVP should state the exact scenario they think it's beneficial and I'll give you enough reasons to explain to you why you're an idiot for thinking that this actually happens. Lets see how many of the above posters come up with this amazing scenario where it's actually useful, I highly doubt any of them will.



Kahega Amielden wrote:
Since when was something not being used often evidence for it being bad?

dude, you're better than this.



Pah! loads of frigs kite at the edge of scram range (incursus, Tormentor, rifter, merlin etc etc) without the range bonus and no primary damage bonus to a ship weapon system it has the real possibility of being kited to death. One of the most fun ways to screw dessy pilots off.

The range bonus gives it neut capability past scram range. Not everything is either 15+km's or at point blank. You need to get out more!

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#13 - 2013-02-06 09:15:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Pah! loads of frigs kite at the edge of scram range (incursus, Tormentor, rifter, merlin etc etc) without the range bonus and no primary damage bonus to a ship weapon system it has the real possibility of being kited to death. One of the most fun ways to screw dessy pilots off.

The range bonus gives it neut capability past scram range. Not everything is either 15+km's or at point blank. You need to get out more!


The only way that works is if the dragoon in question is sitting still and not acting nor reacting to some frigate taking its time to get into orbit (if that frig isn't careful he'll overshoot on his own), in which alternate universe does that happen? If a competent pilot would fly a non range bonused neut dragoon and you'd try to attack it with that scram frig you'd get 2 neuts cycled on you before you get into your orbit 2 out of 3 times, getting you into trouble before the fight starts for real. So it serves no purpose there.

Then we get to the ehp/dps stuff, your kiting frig will simply not last. apart from that you either lack the damage projection or you lack the tracking to deal with the Dragoon's drones, on top of that it has rockets.

All this theoretical "I'll orbit you at 8.5km so HAH" is exactly that; theoretical, could you overheat? sure but will it actually work against a competent pilot? not really because even if you were able to pull that off the dragoon's EHP/dps would still just crush you. So it, again, serves no purpose.

The range bonus does not help it killing frigs and it doesn't help it from dying to cruisers.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#14 - 2013-02-06 23:35:16 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
The only way that works is if the dragoon in question is sitting still and not acting nor reacting to some frigate taking its time to get into orbit (if that frig isn't careful he'll overshoot on his own), in which alternate universe does that happen? If a competent pilot would fly a non range bonused neut dragoon and you'd try to attack it with that scram frig you'd get 2 neuts cycled on you before you get into your orbit 2 out of 3 times, getting you into trouble before the fight starts for real. So it serves no purpose there.

Then we get to the ehp/dps stuff, your kiting frig will simply not last. apart from that you either lack the damage projection or you lack the tracking to deal with the Dragoon's drones, on top of that it has rockets.

All this theoretical "I'll orbit you at 8.5km so HAH" is exactly that; theoretical, could you overheat? sure but will it actually work against a competent pilot? not really because even if you were able to pull that off the dragoon's EHP/dps would still just crush you. So it, again, serves no purpose.

The range bonus does not help it killing frigs and it doesn't help it from dying to cruisers.

I'll call it the competent pilot bias : everything die to a competent pilot.
Even you admit that 1 out of 3 times your target won't be neuted before seting up its orbit at the edge of scram range. Here, a railgun incursus would be able to kill your drones and you.

It may be an edge case, or situational, but the bonus gove the dragoon a clear scram range superiority it wouldn't have without it.

BTW, balance the ships, not the bonuses.
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-02-07 02:37:54 UTC
3 way split DPS is what all the cool kids want.

It knows what you think.
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#16 - 2013-02-07 05:23:39 UTC
HAS to be a troll... there's... no way...

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
Gitanmaxx
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2013-02-07 15:36:40 UTC
Ok, so I don't believe it's never used, or it's the worst ship ever. That's a huge exaggeration. But it definitely could use a slight tweaking. The range bonus on neuts seems like a waste since they're small neuts so the range doesn't change enough to really matter. And when it comes to fitting the algos is much easier to fit. I fly amarr and like using drones, but when I try to put together a fitting for either the algos always seems to be more accommodating. Also the PG required to fit neuts and nos just doesn't seem to be able to be crammed into the dragoon without expensive fitting implants.

Is it an aweful ship, not at all. Could it use love, yes.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-02-07 22:31:46 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Since when was something not being used often evidence for it being bad?


Since the beginning - evolution of Gayllante and Winmatar from 2003 to today.P

FOTM defined.

Something not being used is not necessarily evidence of the player who uses it being bad, but it is the evidence of it itself being bad. Learn to distinguish the former from later.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#19 - 2013-02-07 22:37:37 UTC
Quote:
dude, you're better than this.


I am not defending the dragoon (I don't have an opinion as I haven't really messed with it much).

I am saying that usage statistics does not tell you anything about a ship's effectiveness.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-02-07 22:40:19 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
dude, you're better than this.


I am not defending the dragoon (I don't have an opinion as I haven't really messed with it much).

I am saying that usage statistics does not tell you anything about a ship's effectiveness.


It does.Roll
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