These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1961 - 2013-02-04 00:05:28 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
You're missing the point - T2 armor reps are usually better than Meta 4 with higher fittings in return.
Anyway active tanking still has huge issues keeping up with the damage from even a single battlecruiser...

Anyhow...

I've been mesing around with the Drake. I have been rather obsessed with getting a bit more CPU, however I noticed that dropping the Warfare link makes it capable of becoming an insane monster.
I think the real problem is the warfare links powergrid usage... 200/210 powergrid just enables people to fit a lot if they don't use the option.

The Drake being able to fit like this can be rather overpowered :
6x T2 HAMs, Empty slot,
Named MWD, 2x Meta 4 Shield Extenders, 2x T2 Invulns, T2 Scrambler,
T2 DC, 3x T2 BCS
3x Shield rigs (extender and perhaps an em)
5x Warrior II

~700 dps, ~75k EHP (85k EHP overloaded during entire fights) And thats without implants

This could also be subscriped to the Drake having both top dps, but also 6 medslots (the most medslots for the 8 battlescruisers) and a 5% resist bonus. Not many of the other ships can compete with that perhaps except the Prophecy?

Yes, this fit doesn't have a web and it's not that fast so being able to dictate range is a problem. However with HAMs reaching ~15km range that shouldn't really be an issue.


dunno were your getting the 700 dps on a drake from
Gosti Kahanid
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#1962 - 2013-02-04 01:34:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Gosti Kahanid
serras bang wrote:
Pinky Denmark wrote:
You're missing the point - T2 armor reps are usually better than Meta 4 with higher fittings in return.
Anyway active tanking still has huge issues keeping up with the damage from even a single battlecruiser...

Anyhow...

I've been mesing around with the Drake. I have been rather obsessed with getting a bit more CPU, however I noticed that dropping the Warfare link makes it capable of becoming an insane monster.
I think the real problem is the warfare links powergrid usage... 200/210 powergrid just enables people to fit a lot if they don't use the option.

The Drake being able to fit like this can be rather overpowered :
6x T2 HAMs, Empty slot,
Named MWD, 2x Meta 4 Shield Extenders, 2x T2 Invulns, T2 Scrambler,
T2 DC, 3x T2 BCS
3x Shield rigs (extender and perhaps an em)
5x Warrior II

~700 dps, ~75k EHP (85k EHP overloaded during entire fights) And thats without implants

This could also be subscriped to the Drake having both top dps, but also 6 medslots (the most medslots for the 8 battlescruisers) and a 5% resist bonus. Not many of the other ships can compete with that perhaps except the Prophecy?

Yes, this fit doesn't have a web and it's not that fast so being able to dictate range is a problem. However with HAMs reaching ~15km range that shouldn't really be an issue.


dunno were your getting the 700 dps on a drake from


His Fit with Scourge Rage HAMs makes over 700 DPS according to EFT (600 with Navy Scourge)
Denuo Secus
#1963 - 2013-02-04 04:59:35 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
...
I've been mesing around with the Drake. I have been rather obsessed with getting a bit more CPU, however I noticed that dropping the Warfare link makes it capable of becoming an insane monster.
I think the real problem is the warfare links powergrid usage... 200/210 powergrid just enables people to fit a lot if they don't use the option.

The Drake being able to fit like this can be rather overpowered :
6x T2 HAMs, Empty slot,
Named MWD, 2x Meta 4 Shield Extenders, 2x T2 Invulns, T2 Scrambler,
T2 DC, 3x T2 BCS
3x Shield rigs (extender and perhaps an em)
5x Warrior II

~700 dps, ~75k EHP (85k EHP overloaded during entire fights) And thats without implants

This could also be subscriped to the Drake having both top dps, but also 6 medslots (the most medslots for the 8 battlescruisers) and a 5% resist bonus. Not many of the other ships can compete with that perhaps except the Prophecy?

Yes, this fit doesn't have a web and it's not that fast so being able to dictate range is a problem. However with HAMs reaching ~15km range that shouldn't really be an issue.


Such a Drake wouldn't have much use in PvP. Rage HAMs and no web? Really? Lol

The resist bonus is needed to make medium slots free for at least one web without gimping the Drake's tank completely. As soon as you don't use all med slots for tanking EHP numbers look comparable to other BCs.

You just described an extreme niche fitting option every shield tank has. In a similar manner I could bring an armor tank (Brutix, Harb) fitted as glass cannon with 3 damage mods + 3 TE (+ ofc high damage t2 ammo) and call it OP because of "over 1000 DPS" on a BC hull.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#1964 - 2013-02-04 08:21:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakan MacTrew
serras bang wrote:
Pinky Denmark wrote:
You're missing the point - T2 armor reps are usually better than Meta 4 with higher fittings in return.
Anyway active tanking still has huge issues keeping up with the damage from even a single battlecruiser...

Anyhow...

I've been mesing around with the Drake. I have been rather obsessed with getting a bit more CPU, however I noticed that dropping the Warfare link makes it capable of becoming an insane monster.
I think the real problem is the warfare links powergrid usage... 200/210 powergrid just enables people to fit a lot if they don't use the option.

The Drake being able to fit like this can be rather overpowered :
6x T2 HAMs, Empty slot,
Named MWD, 2x Meta 4 Shield Extenders, 2x T2 Invulns, T2 Scrambler,
T2 DC, 3x T2 BCS
3x Shield rigs (extender and perhaps an em)
5x Warrior II

~700 dps, ~75k EHP (85k EHP overloaded during entire fights) And thats without implants

This could also be subscriped to the Drake having both top dps, but also 6 medslots (the most medslots for the 8 battlescruisers) and a 5% resist bonus. Not many of the other ships can compete with that perhaps except the Prophecy?

Yes, this fit doesn't have a web and it's not that fast so being able to dictate range is a problem. However with HAMs reaching ~15km range that shouldn't really be an issue.


dunno were your getting the 700 dps on a drake from

Overheat some Scourge Rage and that should hit 700+ no problem.

As for the lack.of a web, if your using this in a gang, the issue is far less important. Solo, I would probably opt for navy ammo instead and pack javelins for kiters.

Friends
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1965 - 2013-02-04 08:26:51 UTC
If the Drake needs the 6th slot for a web what does the Ferox need?

Rage HAMs are better than you think - they just got buffed against smaller targets due to skill changes and cruiser/battlecruiser size really isn't that problematic... Against smaller ships apply drones and use faction HAMs. Also this might not be the best solo ship but a couple of HAM Drakes can take on a couple of most other Battlecruisers out with confidence. Mix in a tackler on each side and those Drakes starts to look horrible overpowered copared to other options.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#1966 - 2013-02-04 08:41:58 UTC
I concur, and I use a Drake for PvP on another account. At least the tank is coming down, I hit around 90k ehp currently on a PvP fit.

I did suggest, earlier in the thread, that maybe swapping the resist bonus for a missile velocity bonus could be viable. Good arguments for and against have been put forward on that subject. I would not want to see every Caldari missile boat have the same bonuses, it would be boring. I also don't want to see both Caldari combat BCs have similar bonuses. That too would be boring.

So, how to distinguish both hulls without screwing over the other one, or indeed the other racial boats. Fozzie, I really don't envy you or your team.

What would the effects be of giving the Drake a velocity bonus instead of a damage bonus and giving it back its 7th launcher?
At the same time, swapping out the resist bonus on the Ferox for a damage bonus?

These are just suggestions and I would appreciate someone doing the numbers for me on them. I'm at work and on my phone so I can't really do them atm.

Friends
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#1967 - 2013-02-04 08:43:36 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
Such a Drake wouldn't have much use in PvP. Rage HAMs and no web? Really? Lol

The resist bonus is needed to make medium slots free for at least one web without gimping the Drake's tank completely. As soon as you don't use all med slots for tanking EHP numbers look comparable to other BCs.

You just described an extreme niche fitting option every shield tank has. In a similar manner I could bring an armor tank (Brutix, Harb) fitted as glass cannon with 3 damage mods + 3 TE (+ ofc high damage t2 ammo) and call it OP because of "over 1000 DPS" on a BC hull.

The new drake can easily field that sort of tank without compromising on tackle:

[NEW Drake, HAM + small neut]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Warrior II x5

80k EHP before heat, 93k EHP with the invulns heated. Full tackle and 700 dps before heat/implants. If you downgrade the damage control to meta 3 or 4, you can fit a t2 long point instead of the scram.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#1968 - 2013-02-04 11:19:22 UTC
Anybody have a good large gang setup for the Gallente Combat BCs yet? (Hint: Can we get rid of active rep bonus on one of these ships and change it to something useful for larger gangs?)
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1969 - 2013-02-04 11:47:15 UTC
I was playing with the new data files in EFT and came up with the following motives to fit active armor tank on a Brutix- list is not complete, add your own as you discover them!

1. You want a tank that can be neuted out
2. You prefer lower damage output
3. You think that shield buffer has too much EHP and choose smaller tank for altruistic purposes
4. You don't like to fit gang links
5. You like your Brutix slower
6. You only fight frigates




.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1970 - 2013-02-04 12:19:33 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Anybody have a good large gang setup for the Gallente Combat BCs yet? (Hint: Can we get rid of active rep bonus on one of these ships and change it to something useful for larger gangs?)



Yes, of course ! -But then I couldn't add anything else to Roimes exceptional and accurate list:

Roime wrote:
I was playing with the new data files in EFT and came up with the following motives to fit active armor tank on a Brutix- list is not complete, add your own as you discover them!

1. You want a tank that can be neuted out
2. You prefer lower damage output
3. You think that shield buffer has too much EHP and choose smaller tank for altruistic purposes
4. You don't like to fit gang links
5. You like your Brutix slower
6. You only fight frigates



And then came up with something I think it's a better Gallente Brutix than previous or ever future Gallente Brutix:

High: 6 Neutron Blaster II +whatever wildcard offline (heat sync)

Mids: 1 Experimental 10MN Microwarp Drive - 2x Invulnerability field II - 1 Large shield extender II

Lows: 1 DCU II - 3x MFS II - 2x TE II

Rigs: 3x Core defense field extenders

Drones: 1set of light ECM 1 set of warriors II

Don't fly this all alone unless for giggles, in gangs with tackle/logis must be totally hilarious. If you want more tank, more distance and slightly less dps just move to Ferox.

Conclusion: never not shield fit your blaster ships.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#1971 - 2013-02-04 12:25:16 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
More like when is the Myrmidon gonna be reverted into a viable ship? It sort of skirted the edge of viability before (you could go with either the triple-rep brawler fit or a surprise shield tanking setup) but now its down some high slots and still has god-awful agility (for god's sake, the Prophecy with one nano is more agile than a Myrm with two). So now you're stuck with a brick of a ship that can kind of tank things I guess (if the thing is a single opposing BC, for example) and does pretty mediocre damage in a format that's vulnerable to being exploded (hf when your drones get bombed or shot down). I guess it looks like an airfoil, which is cool?

v0v

Struggling to think of actual uses for the Myrm. As an active-tanked solo / small gang brawling ship it would need agility and speed to catch targets (which it hasn't got). As a fleet ship it's useless since it uses drones and has no buffer-tanking bonuses. Basically it's even more of a shitpile than it was before with pretty much zero redeeming qualities.


I am inclined to agree.

Just what role is it meant to fill these days, either in PvP (or PvE for that matter).

Aside from flavour/liking the model why would one undock it?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1972 - 2013-02-04 12:33:55 UTC
Roime wrote:
I was playing with the new data files in EFT and came up with the following motives to fit active armor tank on a Brutix- list is not complete, add your own as you discover them!

1. You want a tank that can be neuted out
2. You prefer lower damage output
3. You think that shield buffer has too much EHP and choose smaller tank for altruistic purposes
4. You don't like to fit gang links
5. You like your Brutix slower
6. You only fight frigates

3. You may like full tackle and capacitor booster or double prop. And comparing mediocre shield buffer to good active tank is a bit silly.
5. Active armor wont be slower anymore...
6. Full tackle is always good, not only against frigates.

You seem to be largely exagerating.
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1973 - 2013-02-04 12:52:31 UTC
Fozzie,

Why is it so hard to understand that no other race or ship class has two ships doing exactly the same role, and that nobody, and I mean no one, wants the two Gallente BCs to both be bad at engagements larger than a 1 v 1.

When I heard the BCs were getting changed I was overly excited to think about how the Brutix would finally become a viable fleet ship that was not always going to be primaried and has a real chance of surviving on the field alongside any armor cane. Instead the Eve community was slapped in the face. The Brutix is still left with too little PG, to little ehp, and a useless ship bonus.

There is a reason not many people have cried that the Myrm be changed to something different from the Brutix. The Myrm does its niche role well; taking on 1-2 other targets and usually coming out on top. The Brutix, on the other hand, is still bad at active tanking even with the extra low slot because it uses cap hungry reppers, cap hungry hybrids, and is plagued by PG issues.


So I'm asking you to change the active tanking bonus on the Brutix to something that benefits it in a fight over 3 people: a R.o.F bonus, a fall off bonus, a tracking bonus (that's what makes the thorax and talos good, even if it does compete with other ships). There is still plenty of time to address this issue. The Eve community is not going to be angry if CCP comes out and says, "we're delaying any changes until we get them right."

--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1974 - 2013-02-04 13:08:25 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

3. You may like full tackle and capacitor booster or double prop. And comparing mediocre shield buffer to good active tank is a bit silly.
5. Active armor wont be slower anymore...
6. Full tackle is always good, not only against frigates.

You seem to be largely exagerating.


3 - it's not "liking", cap booster is mandatory with active armor tank, you need at least one. No, you can't fit dual prop with active armor tank. And this "mediocre" shield buffer has more total EHP even if MAAR+MAR combo gets to run all the 8 nanite cycles.

5 - yes it is, since shield buffer has low slots to fit with whatever you want, including nano or overdrive

6. Full tackle is good, yeah. But considering you need to give up tank, damage, mobility and cap life for that, that web is kinda pricey.



.
Natasha Rachmaninova
Interminatus
#1975 - 2013-02-04 15:04:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Natasha Rachmaninova
I just wonder that the goal for rebalance is not even defined... When exactly are th bcs ballanced? Are they ballanced if they all are equally usefull in missions, incursions, pvp( 1on1/fleet )? Especialy in pvp... are they ballanced if every fight between 2 of the 8 ships ends everytime in a tie? Blink
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#1976 - 2013-02-04 16:22:29 UTC
Roime wrote:
I was playing with the new data files in EFT and came up with the following motives to fit active armor tank on a Brutix- list is not complete, add your own as you discover them!

1. You want a tank that can be neuted out
2. You prefer lower damage output
3. You think that shield buffer has too much EHP and choose smaller tank for altruistic purposes
4. You don't like to fit gang links
5. You like your Brutix slower
6. You only fight frigates






Wait, why is your brutix slower?

Are you using a armor resistance rig?

The Drake is a Lie
Qaidan Alenko
Eezo-Lution Inc.
#1977 - 2013-02-04 17:14:33 UTC
8 days to go, before this Feb 12th deployment... So, I take it what we see here is what we will be getting?
Go ahead... Get your Wham on!!!
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1978 - 2013-02-04 17:46:39 UTC
Xercodo wrote:
Roime wrote:
I was playing with the new data files in EFT and came up with the following motives to fit active armor tank on a Brutix- list is not complete, add your own as you discover them!

1. You want a tank that can be neuted out
2. You prefer lower damage output
3. You think that shield buffer has too much EHP and choose smaller tank for altruistic purposes
4. You don't like to fit gang links
5. You like your Brutix slower
6. You only fight frigates






Wait, why is your brutix slower?

Are you using a armor resistance rig?


No, because it has 6 lows, so the shield fit has ample room to fit an OD or nano even after fitting more magstabs and TEs than the armor fit.

.
Callduron
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1979 - 2013-02-04 17:56:31 UTC
The issue of certificates came up at the CSM Town Hall on Sunday. Is someone going to look at the relevant certificates as part of the rebalancing process. Cyclones currently have Cruiser Projectile Turrets (Standard) on its recommended list.

(I notice this has been done for the Retribution rebalanced ships so well done there).

I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/

I post on reddit as /u/callduron.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1980 - 2013-02-04 17:59:07 UTC
Callduron wrote:
The issue of certificates came up at the CSM Town Hall on Sunday. Is someone going to look at the relevant certificates as part of the rebalancing process. Cyclones currently have Cruiser Projectile Turrets (Standard) on its recommended list.

(I notice this has been done for the Retribution rebalanced ships so well done there).


Yes we've updated the recommended certificates for each of the Combat BCs as a part of this change.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie