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Dear CCP Seagull
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Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#81 - 2013-02-01 01:16:50 UTC
Starting a player corp was a bad idea for rookies who hadn't learned the ropes. I gave up trying to promote this game to my friends a long time ago. I enjoy the challenge of trying to survive in a game environment full of animals, but most gamers I know would not. It's CCP's game though, and if they chose to run the game in this manner, it's their call.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#82 - 2013-02-01 01:17:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Aren Madigan wrote:

If I had that kind of isk, I'd give it a try... I just know for the moment I'm no where close to flying T3s. I'm also not saying player knowledge isn't important, but, come on. Lets look at drone interfacing for example. Level 5 is a 100% damage boost to drones. Fully trained the skill doubles your drone DPS. There is no game... NO GAME where doubling your DPS isn't a big advantage over others. Even the 20% between 4 and 5 is a significant boost.


Yes, SP makes a difference, but ultimately there's a cap on the amount of SP you can dump into one ship. Furthermore, there's a pretty extreme point of diminishing returns. It's pretty rare that you can't get to 80-90% as good as max skilled in 10% of the time. You point out the 20% boost from Drone Interfacing, but that's 20% of 10% of your DPS. Why is that a problem?

-Liang

Ed: And really, you can always fly a Maller (no drones) if you don't feel your SP is up to the Omen. How much does that 2% extra damage from a million SP in gunnery help?

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2013-02-01 01:35:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Aren Madigan
Vaju Enki wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
[
If you are not willing to fight for what you have in EvE, you don't deserve it, and you will lose it. That's what makes EvE Online great. The problem is the lack of knowledge of themepark mindset players, they don't understand the concepts of competiton in the sandbox.


To a point, you're right, but I'm sorry, its just ignorant as hell to believe that its even possible in some cases to fight back. Its ignorant to believe that the SP gaps don't matter at all. At a point, yeah, it only matters for versatility, but lets be reasonable here. There is a point where its no longer about competition and just simply someone being an e-bully. Some corps really REALLY push that boundry. Its a legitimate reason to take an extreme dislike to something when you become a target. But as EVE is built on being cold and harsh, it does put one at a loss for how to ease people into this through gameplay without screwing it up, which would be unacceptable.


Survival of the fittest at its finest.

In EvE Online, knowledge is power. The big mistake alot of players do is underestimate the competitive nature of game, they usually try to make their own huge sandcastle when they lack the knowledge to keep it.


Which as I said, is a great concept to an extent, just not one people should be thrown in headon... a good metaphor would be that its like a dad throwing his kid into the deep end to teach him to swim... with no intention of saving him if he drowns. You know, minus the threat of ACTUAL death. Its just something I think they could ease people into better instead of going from relative safety to suddenly people hunting you down like maniacs with some of the most advanced weapons isk can buy and the skill and knowledge that the oldbies behind those ships provide, in addition to all the advantages their SP training brings. We're talking a triple whammy here the very instant you leave an NPC corp. To say that's difficult to adjust to would be an understatement. Its probably the highest barrier of the game.

Liang Nuren wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:

If I had that kind of isk, I'd give it a try... I just know for the moment I'm no where close to flying T3s. I'm also not saying player knowledge isn't important, but, come on. Lets look at drone interfacing for example. Level 5 is a 100% damage boost to drones. Fully trained the skill doubles your drone DPS. There is no game... NO GAME where doubling your DPS isn't a big advantage over others. Even the 20% between 4 and 5 is a significant boost.


Yes, SP makes a difference, but ultimately there's a cap on the amount of SP you can dump into one ship. Furthermore, there's a pretty extreme point of diminishing returns. It's pretty rare that you can't get to 80-90% as good as max skilled in 10% of the time. You point out the 20% boost from Drone Interfacing, but that's 20% of 10% of your DPS. Why is that a problem?

-Liang


Ed: And really, you can always fly a Maller (no drones) if you don't feel your SP is up to the Omen. How much does that 2% extra damage from a million SP in gunnery help?


Pretty much what I said, in terms of SPs effect, but here's the thing, getting to that point usually takes a few months. Not a problem in itself, I like the SP system, but when you get right down to it, the first couple months of a new player's gameplay are a period of extreme vulnerability for them. Not a problem in itself as there are plenty of safety factors, but then when you get to corps, its a little more troublesome. Its EXTREMELY common for groups of friends or online communities to want to start their own guild/corp/whatever, and that's fine and dandy most of the time. In EVE it suddenly becomes more problematic, because the instant they do, they lose their protection. Fine and dandy to the big corps that have safety in numbers, but a big barrier to smaller ones.

As for that 2% in gunnery? Not much on its own, but it gives access to things that give just as significant of a boost.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#84 - 2013-02-01 01:40:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Aren Madigan wrote:

Pretty much what I said, in terms of SPs effect, but here's the thing, getting to that point usually takes a few months. Not a problem in itself, I like the SP system, but when you get right down to it, the first couple months of a new player's gameplay are a period of extreme vulnerability for them. Not a problem in itself as there are plenty of safety factors, but then when you get to corps, its a little more troublesome. Its EXTREMELY common for groups of friends or online communities to want to start their own guild/corp/whatever, and that's fine and dandy most of the time. In EVE it suddenly becomes more problematic, because the instant they do, they lose their protection. Fine and dandy to the big corps that have safety in numbers, but a big barrier to smaller ones.

As for that 2% in gunnery? Not much on its own, but it gives access to things that give just as significant of a boost.


I have a great deal of trouble sympathizing with the argument that "the new are helpless". They're not helpless - they're just meek. I've been in low sec and null sec since literally day 1 in this game. But if that doesn't convince you, here's a KB link of someone who started the game ~5 months ago and immediately joined Heretics.

She has never ever lived in high sec, for even a day.

http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=21643

-Liang

Ed: The advantage that she had, however, is game knowledge. Again, game knowledge >>>>> pilot SP. And also, game knowledge will let you overcome "impossible" odds. :)

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2013-02-01 01:53:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Aren Madigan
Knowledge which has to come from somewhere and a pattern of running with other people (with some exception). In otherwords it was other players that helped soften the blow of entry rather than only the player itself, much like how E-UNI is the reason that I've finally started sticking with the game after my third, or fourth attempt... forget which. As I said, safety in numbers.