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Dear CCP Seagull

Author
XScornX
EVE University
Ivy League
#1 - 2013-01-31 00:48:22 UTC
Dear CCP Seagull

I've read through your blog about whats new for 2013 and beyond. It's good to see a fresh face working towards making this game better. I had a new experience this week that I wanted to share with you. I had to apologize to four of my friends because they feel like they wasted their money coming to Eve and went back to their various games. It killed me because of the months I spent talking up how much I love Eve and why they should come over. So I'm typing out the reasons they quit and what happened that went so wrong.

No matter how many times I explained to them that Eve is a harsh world and no joke, what they have experienced as new pilots to New Eden is, in my opinion the reason why at peak you see 50,000 + players and not 100,000 + players. I took for granted what its like to start out in new eden, because I have played for years.

The tutorial has improved quite a bit, I do have to admit. They had it a lot easier than I did when I started, unfortuantely when there was a problem, like any experienced gamer, they put up a petition for help. They still have yet to hear anything back (its been 3 weeks). Not a good start to their careers. I ended up just sending over the isk to buy the item that was missing on the market so they could continue. A glitch, not a big deal. It happens.

They went through the rest of their missions and set out together. They were in an NPC Corp with several other rookies and experienced players. I really couldn't wait until they could join my corp but we were getting War Dec'd at one of our High Sec outpostsby a group that wanted to harass a industry corp with almost no kills. We all docked up or just switched to non corp alts. After a couple of days, and ignoring the advice of a few people in their NPC corp, they formed their own player owned corp and started recruiting (in the recruitment channel), trying to build up the corp like they had done in their other respective games that they had played before. They had some success, but like us, they got war dec'd only they were extorted. Most of the money they had gotten in from the plex, went to replacing multiple ships and paying off their aggressors (since they are new they didn't know you could hire mercs to help. (even though mercs are more expensive most of the time)), who kept the war going a couple of weeks just for fun anyway. That was enough, they quit.

Now, when I heard about what happened, it didn't even phase me (which is sad in itself). It's just business as usual in Eve. Until I actually thought about it. It dawned on me that in general Eve is not only a harsh game but that the tutorial is completely lacking what people really need to learn in the game. You can do anything in Eve except play the game the way the tutorial tells you to play. If you actually read through it and do it, there is no training on Scamming in Jita, Suicide Ganking, Getting enough skill points to PVP and then High Sec War Dec smaller corps till they quit or disband. There's no training on watching local, no training on how important it is to never make a Player owned corp unless you have a group of players well beyond the point of being able to defend themselves and an allaince to back you up. No mention that if you use the recruitment channel to recruit you're going to get a lot of people who join just to spy, steal or destroy your new corps. Even if you're in High Sec and just trying to learn the game itself..

If you take a step back from the game there seems to be almost no reason to have low sec. If you're a big fish you either are in Null doing what big fish do, or you are in High Sec because you can pick and choose who you have to fight. If a corp is too strong, you just rescend the war and its a bad memory. You move on to harrassing other small corps. There's no one to step in and stop you.

However, If you are the small new person corp that just got war decced, you lost your ships, you paid a lot of isk to make them stop and you have to start over, even though you just started. Everyone you spent the time recruiting has quit in the process. In their place, would you A. Pay the monthly subscription for a year and just not play until you have the skills to MAYBE stand up for yourself? B. Quit and find a new game?

More money comes from more people in the game. Anyone who says, "Eve is harsh, if you dont like it go find another game." Is costing you money, a lot of money. The loudest voices in these forums against changing things in High Sec and Low Sec are the ones drowning out the people who actually need you to listen, the new player and his friends. The reason why you dont have more people yelling for help in High Sec is that the other voices have already told them where to spend their money. Elsewhere. And the biggest Irony of this sandbox, if you change things and make high sec a place that people can actually learn and keep playing are the very people who wont leave no matter what you do. Eve is a harsh place, if they were going to move on they would have already quit.

Thanks for your time,
XScornX




baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2013-01-31 00:57:07 UTC
Mine?
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#3 - 2013-01-31 01:07:33 UTC
So youre posting a "I quit because X" thread on behalf of your friends in an effort to turn Eve into Hello Kitty Superfuntime Hugfest Bestfriends Foreverandever Online?

If you think that SP is the barrier that keeps people from defending themselves, Its not. For a new player it might be more the ISK to replace those first losses, but those first losses should have given you lessons to learn from. Instead of going with an ostrich corp that simply hides from danger, why not join a PvP corp that teaches how to actually fight? There are even corps that will give you t1 frigates and fittings to play with!

You said that there is no training on watching local and other blah blah points, yet you yourself know these lessons, and you yourself failed to teach them to your 'friends'. Good friend there. Here is Eve, Goodluck. Aww you failed and quit? Dont worry! Ill head to the forums and avenge you!

Yes the new player experience could be tweaked. But there will never be a replacement for someone who is willing to show someone else the ropes, and frankly, Aura is NOT the teacher for that. Aura's job is to teach you how to get started, its up to the corps you choose to mold the new player into a good player. New players shouldnt be creating their own corps anyways. Only once they have learned the game and what to look out for, then they can go ahead and create that superfriends corp with the supercool name theyve always wanted.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#4 - 2013-01-31 01:13:56 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
So youre posting a "I quit because X" thread on behalf of your friends in an effort to turn Eve into Hello Kitty Superfuntime Hugfest Bestfriends Foreverandever Online?


If playing that actually turns out to be a "super fun time" for real, let me be the first to say: Meow!


/Nǐ hǎo is probably more apt.

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Alphax45
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-01-31 01:27:09 UTC
I agree with the OP: The tutorial needs to help the new players learn just how harsh this game is so they can make an informed decision and not just rage quit.
Pyre leFay
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-01-31 01:48:25 UTC
Alphax45 wrote:
I agree with the OP: The tutorial needs to help the new players learn just how harsh this game is so they can make an informed decision and not just rage quit.

Why would they want to do that? They rather you get your final decision after your first subscription.
Rengerel en Distel
#7 - 2013-01-31 02:58:05 UTC
Their first instinct when they encountered a problem was to file a petition? What game did they come from where that would ever be your first instinct? Why didn't they ask you? Was google down that day? Rookie help was closed? The initial starter corp just didn't have the people on at that time?

Not sure what kind of "friend" you are to have gotten them to join the game, then pretty much abandoned them to their own devices.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

Ckra Trald
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-01-31 03:11:19 UTC
Tutorials need to give hats. Everyone likes hats.

http://www.rusemen.com/ Join Tengoo xd

Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#9 - 2013-01-31 04:00:51 UTC
All the tutorial really needs to do is introduce them to emergent gameplay. The examples themselves are always changing.

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.

Lord Mandelor
Oruze Cruise
White Stag Exit Bag
#10 - 2013-01-31 04:00:55 UTC
Tutorial agent should ask if player wants ISK doubled. If player accepts, all money is immediately confiscated without return.

This would be mission one of the "Market tutorial".

Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-01-31 04:19:50 UTC
Alphax45 wrote:
I agree with the OP: The tutorial needs to help the new players learn just how harsh this game is so they can make an informed decision and not just rage quit.


Well said. TY
Posta Wifda Mosta
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-01-31 04:37:44 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
So youre posting a "I quit because X" thread on behalf of your friends in an effort to turn Eve into Hello Kitty Superfuntime Hugfest Bestfriends Foreverandever Online?

If you think that SP is the barrier that keeps people from defending themselves, Its not. For a new player it might be more the ISK to replace those first losses, but those first losses should have given you lessons to learn from. Instead of going with an ostrich corp that simply hides from danger, why not join a PvP corp that teaches how to actually fight? There are even corps that will give you t1 frigates and fittings to play with!

You said that there is no training on watching local and other blah blah points, yet you yourself know these lessons, and you yourself failed to teach them to your 'friends'. Good friend there. Here is Eve, Goodluck. Aww you failed and quit? Dont worry! Ill head to the forums and avenge you!

Yes the new player experience could be tweaked. But there will never be a replacement for someone who is willing to show someone else the ropes, and frankly, Aura is NOT the teacher for that. Aura's job is to teach you how to get started, its up to the corps you choose to mold the new player into a good player. New players shouldnt be creating their own corps anyways. Only once they have learned the game and what to look out for, then they can go ahead and create that superfriends corp with the supercool name theyve always wanted.


While I may not totally agree with the op, I can disagree with you. SP is a massive barrier initially, why do you think so many seasoned pilots go after newbies? I'll tell you why, because they are easy pickings. A seasoned pilot with maxed out support skills will wipe the floor with a newbie, specially if running navy or deadspace fits because they have a ton of ISK. There is however a sweet spot where if a new player trained properly they can compete on a relatively level playing field after say 6 or 7 months, until then they are just lambs to a wolf. You honestly think a player running basic or standard certificates in pertinent areas can compete with a player running elites across the board? Never in a million years.

The lower skilled player will have an inferior tank, inferior grids, inferior cap, inferior speed, inferior agility, inferior dps and inferior experience.

I have a friend fairly new to the game, been training for 3 months in a pure combat role with frigates and he is not even close to matching my veteran pilots

People like you just say that crap about SP not mattering to make yourselves feel good about your kills, when in fact your kills are a joke just like you.

Dea della Morte
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-01-31 04:48:36 UTC
OP is right kinda, but first.. Stuff?

Had to ask.

The tutorial is SO much better than before, but it still kinda sucks. Captains quarters actually made it alot more difficult to play, as a new player that is. They log in, WASD to move around, undock as the tutorial said, and a completley different world appears. It's literaly the most intimidating thing a new player can experience, 1,400+ OTHER places to go, and like me, that's what i did, not knowing any better. Got scamed, raped, pillaged, slapped, had my ass knocked into the ground multiple times, etc, much of that COULD have been avoided with a better ( and not 3 weeks long ) tutorial, Now i didn't care much that i was destroyed when i was a new player, i still don't care now, i go out and throw away Battleships like they're frigates. But i think that's what kept me playing, actually ignoring the non-informative tutorial, and learning everything the hard way.


I'm typing this after falling for a margin scam like 2 hours ago, i'm ashamed.... Who wants to buy 2x Officer Active EM armor Hardeners?
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#14 - 2013-01-31 04:53:10 UTC
Posta Wifda Mosta wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
So youre posting a "I quit because X" thread on behalf of your friends in an effort to turn Eve into Hello Kitty Superfuntime Hugfest Bestfriends Foreverandever Online?

If you think that SP is the barrier that keeps people from defending themselves, Its not. For a new player it might be more the ISK to replace those first losses, but those first losses should have given you lessons to learn from. Instead of going with an ostrich corp that simply hides from danger, why not join a PvP corp that teaches how to actually fight? There are even corps that will give you t1 frigates and fittings to play with!

You said that there is no training on watching local and other blah blah points, yet you yourself know these lessons, and you yourself failed to teach them to your 'friends'. Good friend there. Here is Eve, Goodluck. Aww you failed and quit? Dont worry! Ill head to the forums and avenge you!

Yes the new player experience could be tweaked. But there will never be a replacement for someone who is willing to show someone else the ropes, and frankly, Aura is NOT the teacher for that. Aura's job is to teach you how to get started, its up to the corps you choose to mold the new player into a good player. New players shouldnt be creating their own corps anyways. Only once they have learned the game and what to look out for, then they can go ahead and create that superfriends corp with the supercool name theyve always wanted.


While I may not totally agree with the op, I can disagree with you. SP is a massive barrier initially, why do you think so many seasoned pilots go after newbies? I'll tell you why, because they are easy pickings. A seasoned pilot with maxed out support skills will wipe the floor with a newbie, specially if running navy or deadspace fits because they have a ton of ISK. There is however a sweet spot where if a new player trained properly they can compete on a relatively level playing field after say 6 or 7 months, until then they are just lambs to a wolf. You honestly think a player running basic or standard certificates in pertinent areas can compete with a player running elites across the board? Never in a million years.

The lower skilled player will have an inferior tank, inferior grids, inferior cap, inferior speed, inferior agility, inferior dps and inferior experience.

I have a friend fairly new to the game, been training for 3 months in a pure combat role with frigates and he is not even close to matching my veteran pilots

People like you just say that crap about SP not mattering to make yourselves feel good about your kills, when in fact your kills are a joke just like you.



It's not just the SPs. If your morals and ethics don't exist, and you listen to the 'right' people, you can learn to destroy a ship in a few seconds. The SPs come in when you decide you want to build one.
Winchester Steele
#15 - 2013-01-31 04:54:02 UTC
0/10

What an awful awful post. You should feel bad and so should your imaginary friends.Sad

...

Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#16 - 2013-01-31 05:02:26 UTC
Dea della Morte wrote:
OP is right kinda, but first.. Stuff?

Had to ask.

The tutorial is SO much better than before, but it still kinda sucks. Captains quarters actually made it alot more difficult to play, as a new player that is. They log in, WASD to move around, undock as the tutorial said, and a completley different world appears. It's literaly the most intimidating thing a new player can experience, 1,400+ OTHER places to go, and like me, that's what i did, not knowing any better. Got scamed, raped, pillaged, slapped, had my ass knocked into the ground multiple times, etc, much of that COULD have been avoided with a better ( and not 3 weeks long ) tutorial, Now i didn't care much that i was destroyed when i was a new player, i still don't care now, i go out and throw away Battleships like they're frigates. But i think that's what kept me playing, actually ignoring the non-informative tutorial, and learning everything the hard way.


I'm typing this after falling for a margin scam like 2 hours ago, i'm ashamed.... Who wants to buy 2x Officer Active EM armor Hardeners?


I feel your pain. Honestly.
Early days, months, and even years have been painful for me.
I agree that the tutorials don't have much to do with the game.

The only advice I can give you, and I don't give advice, is NEVER GIVE AWAY YOUR STUFZ. If you have ever played this game past the trial account, you will keep on playing until this cesspool gets so deep that you can't stay afloat.

Oh. Sorry. I don't use armor. EVER.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-01-31 05:03:41 UTC
Winchester Steele wrote:
0/10

What an awful awful post. You should feel bad and so should your imaginary friends.Sad



Any particular post? All of them? None of them?
Hazzard
Chaotic Dynamics
#18 - 2013-01-31 05:15:19 UTC
Gah wall of text is blinding me. Quickly my Minmatar slaves give me your sunglasses!
Winchester Steele
#19 - 2013-01-31 05:19:27 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:
Winchester Steele wrote:
0/10

What an awful awful post. You should feel bad and so should your imaginary friends.Sad



Any particular post? All of them? None of them?



Oh idk....... The OP troll attempt maybe? Or maybe that other thread where you cry about hilariously losing your faction fit CNR to a glorious awox?

...

Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#20 - 2013-01-31 05:42:36 UTC
Winchester Steele wrote:
Not Politically Correct wrote:
Winchester Steele wrote:
0/10

What an awful awful post. You should feel bad and so should your imaginary friends.Sad



Any particular post? All of them? None of them?



Oh idk....... The OP troll attempt maybe? Or maybe that other thread where you cry about hilariously losing your faction fit CNR to a glorious awox?


WAAAAANNNNHHH! I lost my CNR. BFD. I have another now, and another billion ISK in my wallet, and an SNI.

What do you have?

Expectations? I doubt it.
Morals. Doubt that too.
Courage. Nah.
Encyclopedic knowledge of the game? Sorry, you probably don't know what that means.

So how about we meet? For a friendly exchange of ideas?

How about in 9F-7PZ?

How about if we use rookie ships? Only one slot full? (I suggest a high slot.)

You have 10 days to try to get there and scout the system.

I have no friends there. If you do, oh well.

The killboard will tell the tale.
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