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XScornX
State War Academy
Caldari State
#61 - 2013-01-31 23:36:42 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
You and your friends would have been happier and safer from "griefing" by moving out to low sec or null sec. In both of those you have the expectation that people are there to kill you, while in high sec you have the expectation that you can solo play the game and be 100% safe.

It turns out the common denominator here is your expectation. Best to set them to something more realistic: people want to shoot you in a pure PVP game.

-Liang

Ed: And also, it wasn't griefing. And Eve is a pure PVP game. No, really.


On a side note: That is the best answer I've read so far. It just needs to be made clear to the new players when they start!

We need to get rid of High Sec entirely or stop making it sound like you can do what you want and no one will bother you..
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#62 - 2013-01-31 23:38:56 UTC
XScornX wrote:
Katie Frost wrote:
The biggest mistake the OPs friends made was to have OP lead them into this game.

Quote:

They went through the rest of their missions and set out together. They were in an NPC Corp with several other rookies and experienced players. I really couldn't wait until they could join my corp but we were getting War Dec'd at one of our High Sec outpostsby a group that wanted to harass a industry corp with almost no kills. We all docked up or just switched to non corp alts.


It's like the blind leading the blind.

This is a PvP game man. If you helped your friends get into some T1 Frigs/Cruisers, train up for PvP and learn to defend themselves - they would have laughed off at the fail-PvPers that are high-sec war-deccers and gankers. As soon as you jump into low/0.0 they disappear. But of course, how would you know that, glued to your "high sec outpost"?


So why does the tutorial make it sound that you can stick to Industry, research and Manufacture? Why is that not added as a secondary part of training instead of making it sound like you can do it exclusively?


You can do whatever you want in EvE Online.

The Tears Must Flow
Skorpynekomimi
#63 - 2013-01-31 23:43:29 UTC
Drew Solaert wrote:
I'd like to see a tutorial more focused to Low SP roles.

What about a mission where you have to warp into a fight between 5 pirate NPC's and 10 Militia NPC's in a Condor/Atron/Slasher/Excutioner and have to point and web each of the battleships within a 5-10 time peroid to allow your NPC's to track and kill them, the entire time being shot at by the battleships, meaning you have to get in reallllll close and orbit.

You could build up to it in phases!


This!

Along with basic D-scan tutorials, ship fitting, a run-down of basic ship roles, and simple fleet doctrine.
Things like mining in industrials have to be explained. Although, the Venture goes a long way to stopping that with the ore bay.

Economic PVP
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2013-01-31 23:47:30 UTC
While a lot of people won't agree with the post, you REALLY can't say its wrong. Kind of fits in with basic psychology, strong picking on the weak, the vulnerability of being in unfamiliar territory, etc. Quite literally the only things that can reasonably argued are a) are the people who suffer from this worth keeping around and b) will fixing these issues cause people to leave. Both are kind of hard answers. I mean for "a" there's a point where obviously new players have to suck it up and take it as a learning experience, but when is that point? Where do you draw a line that minimally harms the oldbies? I'm not entirely sure how to answer those questions without information I don't have access to.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#65 - 2013-01-31 23:51:15 UTC
Bedtime tale.

Once upon a time, there was a great game called Ultima Online. It was the first sandbox mmo-rpg. Housing, PKs, full loot, all that good stuff. The economy was extremely well balanced, pvp was frenetic, twitchy and had an extremely high skill cap. You could steal from people, poison them, etc.

Then Trammel came. It split the world in to two halves. One half was the way it was before, the other half was pvp-free. If you stayed in the old world, you got double the resources you did in the new one, but at the same usual risk. In the new world, there was quite literally zero risk, so the economy got completely ****** and inflated. Everyone went mob-killing (ratting) in the best gear (deadspace) instead of basic blacksmithed (t2) gear, no one cared about ore/minerals anymore, etc, etc.

It was the deathknell for UO. Subscriptions dropped off massively and it never recovered. The game is god awful now, but a carebears absolutely sweetest heaven, full of opportunities for massive gold-accumulation and nothing to spend it on.

Good night.

The Tears Must Flow
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2013-02-01 00:03:47 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Bedtime tale.

Once upon a time, there was a great game called Ultima Online. It was the first sandbox mmo-rpg. Housing, PKs, full loot, all that good stuff. The economy was extremely well balanced, pvp was frenetic, twitchy and had an extremely high skill cap. You could steal from people, poison them, etc.

Then Trammel came. It split the world in to two halves. One half was the way it was before, the other half was pvp-free. If you stayed in the old world, you got double the resources you did in the new one, but at the same usual risk. In the new world, there was quite literally zero risk, so the economy got completely ****** and inflated. Everyone went mob-killing (ratting) in the best gear (deadspace) instead of basic blacksmithed (t2) gear, no one cared about ore/minerals anymore, etc, etc.

It was the deathknell for UO. Subscriptions dropped off massively and it never recovered. The game is god awful now, but a carebears absolutely sweetest heaven, full of opportunities for massive gold-accumulation and nothing to spend it on.

Good night.


And that's a good example of going too far... on the other hand, getting skills in UO was fairly easy and even new players reached the cap quickly. You didn't have the kind of griefer paradise that an SP gap can cause in this game prior to a player's first six months or so. Also, GUARDS!
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#67 - 2013-02-01 00:06:51 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Bedtime tale.

Once upon a time, there was a great game called Ultima Online. It was the first sandbox mmo-rpg. Housing, PKs, full loot, all that good stuff. The economy was extremely well balanced, pvp was frenetic, twitchy and had an extremely high skill cap. You could steal from people, poison them, etc.

Then Trammel came. It split the world in to two halves. One half was the way it was before, the other half was pvp-free. If you stayed in the old world, you got double the resources you did in the new one, but at the same usual risk. In the new world, there was quite literally zero risk, so the economy got completely ****** and inflated. Everyone went mob-killing (ratting) in the best gear (deadspace) instead of basic blacksmithed (t2) gear, no one cared about ore/minerals anymore, etc, etc.

It was the deathknell for UO. Subscriptions dropped off massively and it never recovered. The game is god awful now, but a carebears absolutely sweetest heaven, full of opportunities for massive gold-accumulation and nothing to spend it on.

Good night.


And that's a good example of going too far... on the other hand, getting skills in UO was fairly easy and even new players reached the cap quickly. You didn't have the kind of griefer paradise that an SP gap can cause in this game prior to a player's first six months or so. Also, GUARDS!


Knowledge is the power in EvE, not SP.

The Tears Must Flow
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2013-02-01 00:09:20 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Bedtime tale.

Once upon a time, there was a great game called Ultima Online. It was the first sandbox mmo-rpg. Housing, PKs, full loot, all that good stuff. The economy was extremely well balanced, pvp was frenetic, twitchy and had an extremely high skill cap. You could steal from people, poison them, etc.

Then Trammel came. It split the world in to two halves. One half was the way it was before, the other half was pvp-free. If you stayed in the old world, you got double the resources you did in the new one, but at the same usual risk. In the new world, there was quite literally zero risk, so the economy got completely ****** and inflated. Everyone went mob-killing (ratting) in the best gear (deadspace) instead of basic blacksmithed (t2) gear, no one cared about ore/minerals anymore, etc, etc.

It was the deathknell for UO. Subscriptions dropped off massively and it never recovered. The game is god awful now, but a carebears absolutely sweetest heaven, full of opportunities for massive gold-accumulation and nothing to spend it on.

Good night.


And that's a good example of going too far... on the other hand, getting skills in UO was fairly easy and even new players reached the cap quickly. You didn't have the kind of griefer paradise that an SP gap can cause in this game prior to a player's first six months or so. Also, GUARDS!


Knowledge is the power in EvE, not SP.


Yes, because I'm sure T3 ships can really be beaten by an equal or lesser number of T1 frigates, destroyers and cruisers if the T3 flyers are even remotely competent. That's not intelligence insulting at all :)
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#69 - 2013-02-01 00:12:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaju Enki
Aren Madigan wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Bedtime tale.

Once upon a time, there was a great game called Ultima Online. It was the first sandbox mmo-rpg. Housing, PKs, full loot, all that good stuff. The economy was extremely well balanced, pvp was frenetic, twitchy and had an extremely high skill cap. You could steal from people, poison them, etc.

Then Trammel came. It split the world in to two halves. One half was the way it was before, the other half was pvp-free. If you stayed in the old world, you got double the resources you did in the new one, but at the same usual risk. In the new world, there was quite literally zero risk, so the economy got completely ****** and inflated. Everyone went mob-killing (ratting) in the best gear (deadspace) instead of basic blacksmithed (t2) gear, no one cared about ore/minerals anymore, etc, etc.

It was the deathknell for UO. Subscriptions dropped off massively and it never recovered. The game is god awful now, but a carebears absolutely sweetest heaven, full of opportunities for massive gold-accumulation and nothing to spend it on.

Good night.


And that's a good example of going too far... on the other hand, getting skills in UO was fairly easy and even new players reached the cap quickly. You didn't have the kind of griefer paradise that an SP gap can cause in this game prior to a player's first six months or so. Also, GUARDS!


Knowledge is the power in EvE, not SP.


Yes, because I'm sure T3 ships can really be beaten by an equal or lesser number of T1 frigates, destroyers and cruisers if the T3 flyers are even remotely competent. That's not intelligence insulting at all :)


Why would a fleet of T1 frigates fight a fleet T3 ship? Again, lack of Knowledge is the problem, you should probably check goons EvE history.

The Tears Must Flow
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2013-02-01 00:21:30 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Bedtime tale.

Once upon a time, there was a great game called Ultima Online. It was the first sandbox mmo-rpg. Housing, PKs, full loot, all that good stuff. The economy was extremely well balanced, pvp was frenetic, twitchy and had an extremely high skill cap. You could steal from people, poison them, etc.

Then Trammel came. It split the world in to two halves. One half was the way it was before, the other half was pvp-free. If you stayed in the old world, you got double the resources you did in the new one, but at the same usual risk. In the new world, there was quite literally zero risk, so the economy got completely ****** and inflated. Everyone went mob-killing (ratting) in the best gear (deadspace) instead of basic blacksmithed (t2) gear, no one cared about ore/minerals anymore, etc, etc.

It was the deathknell for UO. Subscriptions dropped off massively and it never recovered. The game is god awful now, but a carebears absolutely sweetest heaven, full of opportunities for massive gold-accumulation and nothing to spend it on.

Good night.


And that's a good example of going too far... on the other hand, getting skills in UO was fairly easy and even new players reached the cap quickly. You didn't have the kind of griefer paradise that an SP gap can cause in this game prior to a player's first six months or so. Also, GUARDS!


Knowledge is the power in EvE, not SP.


Yes, because I'm sure T3 ships can really be beaten by an equal or lesser number of T1 frigates, destroyers and cruisers if the T3 flyers are even remotely competent. That's not intelligence insulting at all :)


Why would a fleet of T1 frigates fight a fleet T3 ship? Again, lack of Knowledge is the problem, you should probably check goons EvE history.


Because they wouldn't always have a choice. Something that was a big part of the point the OP was making. There are corps whose entire purpose is the fill up with T3, T2 and faction ships and pick on corporations with new players who don't stand a chance. Is there a way to avoid death? Sure, but on of those said ways is often to "dock up" which can also mean "stop playing and hope they get bored first".
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#71 - 2013-02-01 00:29:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Aren Madigan wrote:
Yes, because I'm sure T3 ships can really be beaten by an equal or lesser number of T1 frigates, destroyers and cruisers if the T3 flyers are even remotely competent. That's not intelligence insulting at all :)


They can be.

-Liang

Ed: Feel free to bring your massively pimped 5 billion ISK 100mn Tengu to Amamake and I'll show you how it's done.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2013-02-01 00:34:26 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Yes, because I'm sure T3 ships can really be beaten by an equal or lesser number of T1 frigates, destroyers and cruisers if the T3 flyers are even remotely competent. That's not intelligence insulting at all :)


They can be.

-Liang

Ed: Feel free to bring your massively pimped 5 billion ISK 100mn Tengu to Amamake and I'll show you how it's done.


I'm not at that sort of point yet, but feel free to post a video of it or something, with proof the guy has half a brain cell at least and a reasonable fit and proof you have the kind of a fit a new player in a T1 would have :)
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2013-02-01 00:35:36 UTC
http://eveuniversity.org/

http://rvbeve.com/

Problem solved.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#74 - 2013-02-01 00:42:37 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:


And that's a good example of going too far... on the other hand, getting skills in UO was fairly easy and even new players reached the cap quickly. You didn't have the kind of griefer paradise that an SP gap can cause in this game prior to a player's first six months or so. Also, GUARDS!


Knowledge is the power in EvE, not SP.


Yes, because I'm sure T3 ships can really be beaten by an equal or lesser number of T1 frigates, destroyers and cruisers if the T3 flyers are even remotely competent. That's not intelligence insulting at all :)


Why would a fleet of T1 frigates fight a fleet T3 ship? Again, lack of Knowledge is the problem, you should probably check goons EvE history.


Because they wouldn't always have a choice. Something that was a big part of the point the OP was making. There are corps whose entire purpose is the fill up with T3, T2 and faction ships and pick on corporations with new players who don't stand a chance. Is there a way to avoid death? Sure, but on of those said ways is often to "dock up" which can also mean "stop playing and hope they get bored first".


If you are not willing to fight for what you have in EvE, you don't deserve it, and you will lose it. That's what makes EvE Online great. The problem is the lack of knowledge of themepark mindset players, they don't understand the concepts of competiton in the sandbox.

The Tears Must Flow
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#75 - 2013-02-01 00:47:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Aren Madigan wrote:
I'm not at that sort of point yet, but feel free to post a video of it or something, with proof the guy has half a brain cell at least and a reasonable fit and proof you have the kind of a fit a new player in a T1 would have :)


Well I'm highly confident that I can show you how it's done. I'm willing to put my ISK where my mouth is. Are you?

-Liang

Ed: Also, in case it wasn't obvious: I fully endorse the idea that player knowledge is far more important than pilot SP.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2013-02-01 00:51:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Aren Madigan
Vaju Enki wrote:
[
If you are not willing to fight for what you have in EvE, you don't deserve it, and you will lose it. That's what makes EvE Online great. The problem is the lack of knowledge of themepark mindset players, they don't understand the concepts of competiton in the sandbox.


To a point, you're right, but I'm sorry, its just ignorant as hell to believe that its even possible in some cases to fight back. Its ignorant to believe that the SP gaps don't matter at all. At a point, yeah, it only matters for versatility, but lets be reasonable here. There is a point where its no longer about competition and just simply someone being an e-bully. Some corps really REALLY push that boundry. Its a legitimate reason to take an extreme dislike to something when you become a target. But as EVE is built on being cold and harsh, it does put one at a loss for how to ease people into this through gameplay without screwing it up, which would be unacceptable.

Liang Nuren wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
I'm not at that sort of point yet, but feel free to post a video of it or something, with proof the guy has half a brain cell at least and a reasonable fit and proof you have the kind of a fit a new player in a T1 would have :)


Well I'm highly confident that I can show you how it's done. I'm willing to put my ISK where my mouth is. Are you?

-Liang

Ed: Also, in case it wasn't obvious: I fully endorse the idea that player knowledge is far more important than pilot SP.


If I had that kind of isk, I'd give it a try... I just know for the moment I'm no where close to flying T3s. I'm also not saying player knowledge isn't important, but, come on. Lets look at drone interfacing for example. Level 5 is a 100% damage boost to drones. Fully trained the skill doubles your drone DPS. There is no game... NO GAME where doubling your DPS isn't a big advantage over others. Even the 20% between 4 and 5 is a significant boost.
Posta Wifda Mosta
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2013-02-01 00:52:04 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Bedtime tale.

Once upon a time, there was a great game called Ultima Online. It was the first sandbox mmo-rpg. Housing, PKs, full loot, all that good stuff. The economy was extremely well balanced, pvp was frenetic, twitchy and had an extremely high skill cap. You could steal from people, poison them, etc.

Then Trammel came. It split the world in to two halves. One half was the way it was before, the other half was pvp-free. If you stayed in the old world, you got double the resources you did in the new one, but at the same usual risk. In the new world, there was quite literally zero risk, so the economy got completely ****** and inflated. Everyone went mob-killing (ratting) in the best gear (deadspace) instead of basic blacksmithed (t2) gear, no one cared about ore/minerals anymore, etc, etc.

It was the deathknell for UO. Subscriptions dropped off massively and it never recovered. The game is god awful now, but a carebears absolutely sweetest heaven, full of opportunities for massive gold-accumulation and nothing to spend it on.

Good night.


lol, time for you to go to bed cause you have it all wrong (over tired perhaps). Why would people leave the game if they still had the old hardcore server that was so loved with the same play so many loved for so many years? I'll tell you why, better games came along. Ultima Onlines decline was not due to the fact they added a pve server (which they actually added to keep the game alove a little longer) but due to the fact better, more entertaining things came along.
Jace Errata
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#78 - 2013-02-01 01:04:53 UTC
Something I feel is worth noting here is that while it is technically possible to precision-train your way to combat competence within days or weeks, few new players will actually know enough about the game to actually do this. It's all very well being an alt of an experienced player, or having a good friend in a nullsec alliance, but if you're a complete stranger to the game, you will have no idea that kind of thing is possible (and you might not want to, even if you do).

tweeten

One day they woke me up so I could live forever

It's such a shame the same will never happen to you
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#79 - 2013-02-01 01:07:20 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
[
If you are not willing to fight for what you have in EvE, you don't deserve it, and you will lose it. That's what makes EvE Online great. The problem is the lack of knowledge of themepark mindset players, they don't understand the concepts of competiton in the sandbox.


To a point, you're right, but I'm sorry, its just ignorant as hell to believe that its even possible in some cases to fight back. Its ignorant to believe that the SP gaps don't matter at all. At a point, yeah, it only matters for versatility, but lets be reasonable here. There is a point where its no longer about competition and just simply someone being an e-bully. Some corps really REALLY push that boundry. Its a legitimate reason to take an extreme dislike to something when you become a target. But as EVE is built on being cold and harsh, it does put one at a loss for how to ease people into this through gameplay without screwing it up, which would be unacceptable.


Survival of the fittest at its finest.

In EvE Online, knowledge is power. The big mistake alot of players do is underestimate the competitive nature of game, they usually try to make their own huge sandcastle when they lack the knowledge to keep it.

The Tears Must Flow
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#80 - 2013-02-01 01:14:39 UTC
Posta Wifda Mosta wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Bedtime tale.

Once upon a time, there was a great game called Ultima Online. It was the first sandbox mmo-rpg. Housing, PKs, full loot, all that good stuff. The economy was extremely well balanced, pvp was frenetic, twitchy and had an extremely high skill cap. You could steal from people, poison them, etc.

Then Trammel came. It split the world in to two halves. One half was the way it was before, the other half was pvp-free. If you stayed in the old world, you got double the resources you did in the new one, but at the same usual risk. In the new world, there was quite literally zero risk, so the economy got completely ****** and inflated. Everyone went mob-killing (ratting) in the best gear (deadspace) instead of basic blacksmithed (t2) gear, no one cared about ore/minerals anymore, etc, etc.

It was the deathknell for UO. Subscriptions dropped off massively and it never recovered. The game is god awful now, but a carebears absolutely sweetest heaven, full of opportunities for massive gold-accumulation and nothing to spend it on.

Good night.


lol, time for you to go to bed cause you have it all wrong (over tired perhaps). Why would people leave the game if they still had the old hardcore server that was so loved with the same play so many loved for so many years? I'll tell you why, better games came along. Ultima Onlines decline was not due to the fact they added a pve server (which they actually added to keep the game alove a little longer) but due to the fact better, more entertaining things came along.


Wierd babbling, you are still in the state of language acquisition aren't you?

The Tears Must Flow