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Dear CCP Seagull
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Posta Wifda Mosta
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2013-01-31 14:51:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Posta Wifda Mosta wrote:


While I may not totally agree with the op, I can disagree with you. SP is a massive barrier initially, why do you think so many seasoned pilots go after newbies? I'll tell you why, because they are easy pickings. A seasoned pilot with maxed out support skills will wipe the floor with a newbie, specially if running navy or deadspace fits because they have a ton of ISK. There is however a sweet spot where if a new player trained properly they can compete on a relatively level playing field after say 6 or 7 months, until then they are just lambs to a wolf. You honestly think a player running basic or standard certificates in pertinent areas can compete with a player running elites across the board? Never in a million years.

The lower skilled player will have an inferior tank, inferior grids, inferior cap, inferior speed, inferior agility, inferior dps and inferior experience.

I have a friend fairly new to the game, been training for 3 months in a pure combat role with frigates and he is not even close to matching my veteran pilots

People like you just say that crap about SP not mattering to make yourselves feel good about your kills, when in fact your kills are a joke just like you.



30 min into EVE and you can be tackling dreads in a baby cepter.


Good luck and have fun.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#42 - 2013-01-31 15:05:26 UTC
XScornX wrote:
I had to apologize to four of my friends because they feel like they wasted their money coming to Eve and went back to their various games.



Yep, more "EVE would get more subs if" crap. I like to call it the "Appeal to CCPs wallet" fallacy.

So some dudes came into this game, didn't get from it what they got form other games (i will bet isk, aur or real money RIGHT NOW that the games the came from were themparks of instant gratification twitch games) and that somehow demonstrates a problem with EVE Online?

Brilliant, you probably live in high sec.

The best part was this:
Quote:
More money comes from more people in the game. Anyone who says, "Eve is harsh, if you dont like it go find another game." Is costing you money, a lot of money. The loudest voices in these forums against changing things in High Sec and Low Sec are the ones drowning out the people who actually need you to listen, the new player and his friends. The reason why you dont have more people yelling for help in High Sec is that the other voices have already told them where to spend their money. Elsewhere. And the biggest Irony of this sandbox, if you change things and make high sec a place that people can actually learn and keep playing are the very people who wont leave no matter what you do. Eve is a harsh place, if they were going to move on they would have already quit.


EVE is good in part because it is so exclusive. I'm all for ccp making more money, but not at the expense of one of the truly good, truly deep games in existence.
Why the insidious carebear "EVE should be for everyone!" crowd exists here rather than just playing games more suited to them is crazy to me. Let EVE be EVE, not some other game.
Posta Wifda Mosta
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2013-01-31 16:04:37 UTC
The problem for the most part is not with the game, the problem is some of the morons who play it. I think if the morons would just pack it up and leave then CCP's profit would triple and there would be some seriously good fights in null, low and highsec. It's the morons who are holding this game back, just look at them posting in this thread, they are completely clueless. If they just want and expect people to line up ships and pods for them to destroy so they can pad the useless killboards then they should just quit EvE and go play duck hunter on a console.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#44 - 2013-01-31 17:20:53 UTC
Content isn't going to be spoonfed to you, you have to make your own content. When people come to ruin the content you've made you either dock up or say OH HELL NAW and get rolling.

Not today spaghetti.
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-01-31 17:35:22 UTC
I'd like to see a tutorial more focused to Low SP roles.

What about a mission where you have to warp into a fight between 5 pirate NPC's and 10 Militia NPC's in a Condor/Atron/Slasher/Excutioner and have to point and web each of the battleships within a 5-10 time peroid to allow your NPC's to track and kill them, the entire time being shot at by the battleships, meaning you have to get in reallllll close and orbit.

You could build up to it in phases!

I lied :o
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2013-01-31 17:55:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Posta Wifda Mosta wrote:


While I may not totally agree with the op, I can disagree with you. SP is a massive barrier initially, why do you think so many seasoned pilots go after newbies? I'll tell you why, because they are easy pickings. A seasoned pilot with maxed out support skills will wipe the floor with a newbie, specially if running navy or deadspace fits because they have a ton of ISK. There is however a sweet spot where if a new player trained properly they can compete on a relatively level playing field after say 6 or 7 months, until then they are just lambs to a wolf. You honestly think a player running basic or standard certificates in pertinent areas can compete with a player running elites across the board? Never in a million years.

The lower skilled player will have an inferior tank, inferior grids, inferior cap, inferior speed, inferior agility, inferior dps and inferior experience.

I have a friend fairly new to the game, been training for 3 months in a pure combat role with frigates and he is not even close to matching my veteran pilots

People like you just say that crap about SP not mattering to make yourselves feel good about your kills, when in fact your kills are a joke just like you.



30 min into EVE and you can be tackling dreads in a baby cepter.


But you won't be.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#47 - 2013-01-31 19:40:46 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
As do I. It's a fine thing, provided they're able to run a corp and they know what they're getting into. These poor guys had no idea and no chance to have had an idea, because there's no message that joining an established corp to look out for you and develop you before you strike out on your own is a better idea than running into the wall before you've got your first 1M SP.

You solve such problems by removing the wall, but not by raising it or cutting off legs.


Apologies, but EVE is a PvP game. Special treatment is easily exploitable.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#48 - 2013-01-31 19:41:09 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Posta Wifda Mosta wrote:


While I may not totally agree with the op, I can disagree with you. SP is a massive barrier initially, why do you think so many seasoned pilots go after newbies? I'll tell you why, because they are easy pickings. A seasoned pilot with maxed out support skills will wipe the floor with a newbie, specially if running navy or deadspace fits because they have a ton of ISK. There is however a sweet spot where if a new player trained properly they can compete on a relatively level playing field after say 6 or 7 months, until then they are just lambs to a wolf. You honestly think a player running basic or standard certificates in pertinent areas can compete with a player running elites across the board? Never in a million years.

The lower skilled player will have an inferior tank, inferior grids, inferior cap, inferior speed, inferior agility, inferior dps and inferior experience.

I have a friend fairly new to the game, been training for 3 months in a pure combat role with frigates and he is not even close to matching my veteran pilots

People like you just say that crap about SP not mattering to make yourselves feel good about your kills, when in fact your kills are a joke just like you.



30 min into EVE and you can be tackling dreads in a baby cepter.


But you won't be.


Goons do it; why can't CVA?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Whitehound
#49 - 2013-01-31 19:43:51 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
As do I. It's a fine thing, provided they're able to run a corp and they know what they're getting into. These poor guys had no idea and no chance to have had an idea, because there's no message that joining an established corp to look out for you and develop you before you strike out on your own is a better idea than running into the wall before you've got your first 1M SP.

You solve such problems by removing the wall, but not by raising it or cutting off legs.


Apologies, but EVE is a PvP game. Special treatment is easily exploitable.

I see no connection between your response and what I said. I take the apologies, k?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Model Number 087
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#50 - 2013-01-31 20:05:55 UTC
The entry barrier to EVE is high. If you have no patience and interest to read, google, research information, just want to jump in, you will be lost. I realised that everytime I wanted to help newbies. It's meaningless to help them if they don't invest some energy and help / research the things themselves. This is not WOW where you start with 2 spells and need to kill 10 boars. EVE is hard from the beginning, and if CCP change that, 12 year old stupids swarm all chatchannels, and EVE will not be EVE any more, and I'll quit as well :)
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-01-31 20:11:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Nothing the tutorial could do would have kept your friends from quitting.

You're opinion is not fact.

You wrote a bunch of words, adressed to a dev, that amounted to whining that your friends weren't suited for EVE and quit.

You included lots of wonder "EVE myths" that are a bunch of bullshit.

You encourage people to exploit the NPC corps to avoid wardecs, you're a bit of a pussy.

You should quit and join your friends in whatever MMO they're playing, that if it isn't WoW is probably free to play after having failed under a subscription model, and very likely had just as many people or fewer playing it as EVE does.


The only subsicrption based game that is currently doing better than EVE is WoW.

250-300k players is pretty much the industry average with a sub model today.

But oh!
Guess what game DID compete with WoW.
Lineage 2 had just as many people playing it WORLDWIDE, as WoW did, before they basically came to the end of it's development. (Lineage 2 was only ever slated to recieve a set amount of "expansion", at which point NCsoft intended to stop further expansion fo the game to release a new Lineage. Guess what's coming out soon?)

Lineage 2, especially when it released, was more harsh than EVE. You spent MONTHS getting items, and then someone could gank you and you had a chance of not just losing something, but also possibly several days worth of XP.


All you guys that keep saying that CCP would have "so many more subs, if only they would make the game -safer-" are completely full of ****.



Show us all a subscription based game that isn't WoW that supports your rediculous idea.

Because Lineage 2 had over 10m people playing it at one point, with a subscription model.
You risk averse bads are WRONG.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#52 - 2013-01-31 20:39:50 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
As do I. It's a fine thing, provided they're able to run a corp and they know what they're getting into. These poor guys had no idea and no chance to have had an idea, because there's no message that joining an established corp to look out for you and develop you before you strike out on your own is a better idea than running into the wall before you've got your first 1M SP.

You solve such problems by removing the wall, but not by raising it or cutting off legs.


Apologies, but EVE is a PvP game. Special treatment is easily exploitable.

I see no connection between your response and what I said. I take the apologies, k?



You were referring to wardecs as "the wall"?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#53 - 2013-01-31 20:45:02 UTC
XScornX wrote:

If you take a step back from the game there seems to be almost no reason to have low sec. If you're a big fish you either are in Null doing what big fish do, or you are in High Sec because you can pick and choose who you have to fight. If a corp is too strong, you just rescend the war and its a bad memory. You move on to harrassing other small corps. There's no one to step in and stop you.


If you take a step back from the game there seems to be almost no reason to have high sec. If you're a big fish you either are in Null doing what big fish do, or you are in Low Sec because you can fight anyone you want to fight. If a corp is too strong, you just run away its a bad memory. You move on to killing everyone else. There's no one to step in and stop you.

Fixed that for you.

You're welcome.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#54 - 2013-01-31 20:48:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Whitehound wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
As do I. It's a fine thing, provided they're able to run a corp and they know what they're getting into. These poor guys had no idea and no chance to have had an idea, because there's no message that joining an established corp to look out for you and develop you before you strike out on your own is a better idea than running into the wall before you've got your first 1M SP.

You solve such problems by removing the wall, but not by raising it or cutting off legs.


Apologies, but EVE is a PvP game. Special treatment is easily exploitable.

I see no connection between your response and what I said. I take the apologies, k?

Not to pounce on you too hard Whitehound, but lets put it another way.

Having a drivers liscense is very helpful. So the logical thing is to remove the minimum age limit and waive taking the test. Just swing on into the DMV and pick up your's today.

Except, of course, you don't have the skills or necessary experience to drive that vehicle safely... and your efforts to drive will likely end you up with a wrecked vehicle at best or a wrecked body at worst.

The point of this silly analogy is that new players will understand that if that skill is difficult to train for, and the ISK investment substantial, then forming a corp is not something you should jump right into. Lets face it, you really can't just come right out (as a game company) and tell that new player he isn't capable of successfully doing so yet. No, the tactful (and successful) way to do so is to simply let the requirements to create a corp convey it for you on a practical level.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Whitehound
#55 - 2013-01-31 21:09:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Malcanis wrote:
You were referring to wardecs as "the wall"?

No. I was referring to raising the cost of creating a corporation as a means to solving a problem.

When a few players cannot handle the freedom then one should not restrict the freedom of the majority who can.

EVE is about making losses and learning from it. If you start holding hands of every new player then where do you stop with it? You will find yourself holding hands to the very last day! It is a dangerous road you are walking on and you better get off it as soon as possible and make sure not to take it again.

Rather bind the cost for corporation and alliance creation to the hard limits of the game mechanics so that we can have as much freedom within the sandbox without breaking it. Meaning, use the cost factor purely as a means to control the corporation numbers for technical reasons (such as software limitations), but do not use it for anything that goes on within the sandbox itself and especially not for social issues.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
XScornX
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-01-31 23:17:51 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
So youre posting a "I quit because X" thread on behalf of your friends in an effort to turn Eve into Hello Kitty Superfuntime Hugfest Bestfriends Foreverandever Online?

If you think that SP is the barrier that keeps people from defending themselves, Its not. For a new player it might be more the ISK to replace those first losses, but those first losses should have given you lessons to learn from. Instead of going with an ostrich corp that simply hides from danger, why not join a PvP corp that teaches how to actually fight? There are even corps that will give you t1 frigates and fittings to play with!

You said that there is no training on watching local and other blah blah points, yet you yourself know these lessons, and you yourself failed to teach them to your 'friends'. Good friend there. Here is Eve, Goodluck. Aww you failed and quit? Dont worry! Ill head to the forums and avenge you!

Yes the new player experience could be tweaked. But there will never be a replacement for someone who is willing to show someone else the ropes, and frankly, Aura is NOT the teacher for that. Aura's job is to teach you how to get started, its up to the corps you choose to mold the new player into a good player. New players shouldnt be creating their own corps anyways. Only once they have learned the game and what to look out for, then they can go ahead and create that superfriends corp with the supercool name theyve always wanted.


Where in the tutorial does it say to join a PVP corp to make sure you know how to fight?

So, even if someone is interested in only the industry manufacturing side that the tutorial shows is such a big part of Eve. A player interested in this should join a PVP corp they have no interested in to learn how to do something they dont want to do?

Since there are as many if not more skills involved in Industry a person should waste all the time with PVP skills and completely ignore the part of the game they are the most interested in?

So, even though Corps are a huge part of this game you shouldn't join one until you completely know how to play the game? Then you think there should be an SP limit on joiing a corp? Say 10 million before you're allowed to join a POC? Eve University and any other corp that trains players will LOVE you! By the way, I learn something new about Eve everyday, and I doubt that will ever stop.

So there shouldn't be any industry corps at all because everyone should be fighting?

Why would any experienced PVP player have any reason to fly in high sec except to exploit indy corps, new players and Pad their kill boards with easy kills?
XScornX
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-01-31 23:24:51 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Their first instinct when they encountered a problem was to file a petition? What game did they come from where that would ever be your first instinct? Why didn't they ask you? Was google down that day? Rookie help was closed? The initial starter corp just didn't have the people on at that time?

Not sure what kind of "friend" you are to have gotten them to join the game, then pretty much abandoned them to their own devices.


Sorry it took so long, had to make some phone calls to get your questions answered...

As experienced gamers in many different Genre's filing a petition is what you usually do.

Cross between My work schedule at the time I couldn't be on a lot / I tried to give input but they told me they wanted to figure it out themselves... Interesting point though... So no one should join the game unless they have a friend to hold their hand? CCP should stop advertising then.

Initial Starter Corp and Help Channel both asked if they had read the mission correctly and gave them hell for being noobs...

I'm the god father of one of their kids and the best man at anothers wedding, I'm a good friend...once again they wanted to figure it out for themselves. New players shouldn't have to know someone to get through.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#58 - 2013-01-31 23:27:57 UTC
You and your friends would have been happier and safer from "griefing" by moving out to low sec or null sec. In both of those you have the expectation that people are there to kill you, while in high sec you have the expectation that you can solo play the game and be 100% safe.

It turns out the common denominator here is your expectation. Best to set them to something more realistic: people want to shoot you in a pure PVP game.

-Liang

Ed: And also, it wasn't griefing. And Eve is a pure PVP game. No, really.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#59 - 2013-01-31 23:32:23 UTC
Welcome to EvE Online.

The Tears Must Flow
XScornX
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-01-31 23:34:55 UTC
Katie Frost wrote:
The biggest mistake the OPs friends made was to have OP lead them into this game.

Quote:

They went through the rest of their missions and set out together. They were in an NPC Corp with several other rookies and experienced players. I really couldn't wait until they could join my corp but we were getting War Dec'd at one of our High Sec outpostsby a group that wanted to harass a industry corp with almost no kills. We all docked up or just switched to non corp alts.


It's like the blind leading the blind.

This is a PvP game man. If you helped your friends get into some T1 Frigs/Cruisers, train up for PvP and learn to defend themselves - they would have laughed off at the fail-PvPers that are high-sec war-deccers and gankers. As soon as you jump into low/0.0 they disappear. But of course, how would you know that, glued to your "high sec outpost"?


So why does the tutorial make it sound that you can stick to Industry, research and Manufacture? Why is that not added as a secondary part of training instead of making it sound like you can do it exclusively?