Player Features and Ideas Discussion

at least 15km on HAM range and possible more with a rig is a huge advanateg for Drake - And it has a spare med for a web to keep Ferox away from Blaster optimal... Start the fight at 20-30km and the Ferox will suddenly be in trouble everytime even with Null ;-)

Fozzie

I' d like to get your point as how you see at CCP the Cyclone's role?

How the HAM Cyclone will perform better than the old one?

In case of fighting vs a cruiser
I checked how much (real) DPS an AC Cyclone can apply to LSE fit Bellicose, the cruiser is spining at 5km with a AB around the Cyclone.

220AC + rockets Cyclone with 2 gyro + 1 TE wil hit a Bellicose for 400 DPS (5 drones DPS included) in 3.5 - 9 km range

HAM Cyclone + 2 x150mm + drones nets me 300 - > 275 DPS in 3.5 - 9 km range

Both AC and HAM versions have equal DPS arround 13.5 km range beyond wich HAM is gettin an advantage.

So how it should be flown? It's not a brawling short range BC, nor multi-purpose like the old one (3 x Rocket Launchers vs frig)
To be effective it needs a web or a Target Painter . A module i cant fit it because i wont trade off the TANK the only ACE this ship has.

It can use T2 missiles, the give very nice DPS vs other BC but below that class of opponent it's DPS is laughable.
The 5th low slot helps boost dps but honestly i'll trade it for a mid slot any day.

6 slot ?
MWD
Scram
Invul Field
XL ASB
Boost AMP
WEB

The theoreticall DPS will be lower but it can be applied to more targets...

I feel the new Cyclone to be very limited in engagements solo and even in gank.

It will be good at :

Baiting - it already does this job

Tank sentry aggro - the old one does it well

Force enemy to waste ammo/missiles on you since your dps will be good only vs BC - Sitational

I'm sad that the ship that helped me learn EVE life the hard way will become from a underdog a waterpistol. The exception is fighting other BC where it can have a niche

Just my point of view

So you're going to leave the ferox as the turd of the bc's ... awesome i think i'll leave mine to rot until you can be arsed to fix them... great work fozzie :P

And furthermore although you're reasoning for the optimal range bonus is valid i don't think you are getting how little the dps is compared to other weapon systems which considering that's the point of blasters..... and that one switch of bonus would at least give it a role again as otherwise the drake just stomps all over it.

you realize the ferox does about 725 dps Armor brutix 734 shield cane 755 armor cane less then 700 Ham Drake 650. With close range ammo and drones. Tank and gank is pretty comparable between all the battle cruisers i have tested. (Drake,armor/shield cane, armor/shield brutix, Ferox.

Wiv

Yo Foz-man-- I really appreciate your decision to put utility highs back in!

OK I may have lied about the Cyclone. If you consider drone DPS as well its output isn't so bad. It could still use a little more speed, agility, and scan res though IMHO. Just a little something to differentiate it from the Drake-- something to trade that ~10k shield EHP for...

edit:

Oh, and the Hurricane. Upon casual inspection, the Hurricane now appears to be kind of... sad. It sort of does similar DPS to other BCs, but with a vastly shorter engagement range and way less tank. The only respect in which it's not average or below average is mobility, where it has a marginal advantage over other ships (still only ~400m/s faster than a Drake with MWD). With 2x damage mods and 2x TE, the DPS output of a 220 Cane shooting faction EMP is only ~40 DPS greater than that of a Brutix shooting Null (which has better range even with only 1 TE)-- and that's with the Cane fielding Warrior IIs and the Brutix not using drones... launch a flight of Hammerheads on the Brutix and it does almost 100 more DPS using long range ammo than the Cane does using closerange. To top things off, the Brutix has 10k more EHP, better agility, and is only 100m/s slower than the Cane.

This doesn't seem right. The Cane shouldn't be objectively inferior in pretty much every respect to a Brutix, Drake, or Cyclone. To buff and differentiate it a little I'd consider giving the Cane a falloff bonus and boosing its base speed a bit; I think its DPS output is about right but it should project damage significantly better than something like a Brutix. Just looking at a DPS graph for both ships (220 AC Cane with 2x Gyro 2x TE and a 5 Neutron, 1 Ion Blaster Brutix with 2x MFS 1x TE, both using long-range ammo and a flight of Warriors / Hammerheads, respectively) the Brutix has a massive DPS advantage over the Hurricane at close range (~200 DPS) while the Hurricane has a marginal advantage over the Brutix at longer range (the gap peaks at ~100 DPS at around 25km and shrinks back down as range increases). Adding a falloff bonus (and a hint of speed-- think +250m/s MWD speed) to the Cane would flatten out that DPS curve a bit and make the Cane a compelling kiting ship (where it's often worth trading tank and some DPS output for better damage projection and a speed advantage) rather than simply leaving it as an inferior brawling ship (the Drake, Cyclone, and Brutix all outclass the Cane in this role-- I haven't done any analysis vs the other BCs in this capacity but I suspect that these ships represent the best comparisons since they all currently lean towards buffer-fit, close-range, high-damage setups).

I agree 100% with this.

Wiv

It does seem a bit disrespectful fozzie doesn't seem to have listened to us at all on bc's and made even less changes in response it kind of seems like a rushjob and that he is too busy for this thread in particular... which he probably is but what does that tell you?

Just give the Ferox a DPS bonus so it's atleast partially useful and still not the ugly duckling people use for novelty.

I mean c'mon, it's a pretty straight forward fix.

Unlike the Cyclone and Drake or any droneboat you mean, whose weapons use cap? Oh wait...



Yes I see your point given how the Cane does less dps, has less tank, and has worse range than the other ships mentioned while having essentially the same mobility. Definitely an unfair advantage.

A lot of the bonuses are in place in an attempt to make each ship in a crowded environment their own unique snowflake. The battlecruisers have to balance against each other. On top of that they can't obsolete or overshadow the work just done on the cruisers.

The Moa has a damage bonus and a shield resist bonus. It has the equivalent of 6.25 turrets vs. the Ferox's 7. It has a good tank but not at the Ferox's level. If you gave the Ferox the same damage bonus rather then the optimal - i.e. - what everyone is asking for- then you have a super Moa. What then, is the purpose of the Moa? There is also the question of whether or not the Ferox could actually apply Blaster damage being as cumbersome as it is. With neutrons, one tracking enhancer, and Null you can get 11km + 11km of optimal and falloff. That's pretty nice. The Moa at least can get some speed behind it. The Ferox? Not so much.

When you compare the Brutix to the Ferox you get another favorable comparison - 9 effective turrets vs. 7. The Brutix has to have it's tank and gank compete for the same slots. The Ferox does not. The Brutix edges ahead with damage but the Ferox has range on it. It's a nice comparison.

The Brutix still has a tanking bonus because there isn't anything better for it. Tracking? We would then be comparing it to the Talos or Thorax. Falloff? The current and future Deimos might not like that.

What about the Drake keeping it's shield resist bonus? The caracal. It's bonuses are for velocity and a general 5% damage bonus. That's where most people would like to see the Drake go. That would dwarf the caracal.

The end result of all this balancing is there are awkard angles that will never quite fit. Naga vs. Ferox. Drake vs. Ferox. Etc. Etc.