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POSes: I am a small portion of the community

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Newt Rondanse
Magnificent Mayhem Mining
#2601 - 2013-01-27 20:43:27 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
What is so hard about designing a ship which acts like a supercarrier but doesn't leave space and fits pos modules instead of carrier/ship modules and consumes fuel blocks for various processes? Then call it the new "pos" and add other features later. You could do that by the summer for sure. You could even let the pos warp and jump like capital ships if the player has the right skills, and it will be like a mobile, small, player station. Let's do it already.

Edit: Lock it down so that the player who owns/deployed it is the only one that can use it. Allow the player to specify other players who can use it too.


Perhaps something like this, they should be prototyping potential designs *now* to see what works in play.

Not necessarily on Sisi or any other public server, but all the hypothetical designs in the world don't count squat against actually trying a few out.
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#2602 - 2013-01-27 23:43:42 UTC
Newt Rondanse wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
What is so hard about designing a ship which acts like a supercarrier but doesn't leave space and fits pos modules instead of carrier/ship modules and consumes fuel blocks for various processes? Then call it the new "pos" and add other features later. You could do that by the summer for sure. You could even let the pos warp and jump like capital ships if the player has the right skills, and it will be like a mobile, small, player station. Let's do it already.

Edit: Lock it down so that the player who owns/deployed it is the only one that can use it. Allow the player to specify other players who can use it too.


Perhaps something like this, they should be prototyping potential designs *now* to see what works in play.

Not necessarily on Sisi or any other public server, but all the hypothetical designs in the world don't count squat against actually trying a few out.



Actually, according to Seagull's one reply, they already have a prototype with graphics, they just don't have any functionality to speak of for the prototype.

o/
Celly

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Newt Rondanse
Magnificent Mayhem Mining
#2603 - 2013-01-28 03:29:42 UTC
If they don't have functionality, it isn't much of a prototype now, is it?
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#2604 - 2013-01-28 05:29:32 UTC
Newt Rondanse wrote:
If they don't have functionality, it isn't much of a prototype now, is it?


^ This FTW.

I honestly can't believe that they cannot take code from elsewhere in the game "that works" and scale it towards a corporate tower, or for lack of a better term, a corporate outpost.

It would function just like NPC stations or alliance built outposts in 0.0 except it would be at the corporate level. Some functions like cloning/medical services, repair services, and insurance wouldn't be available ..... however since all services aren't available at every station, the functionality I speak of translates over to a corp outpost rather well.

Modular POS'es (aka modPOS) would function just like outposts and stations; hangars, factories, labs, and refinery services would be simple add-ons that could be offlined/onlined at will, with the proper permissions, and would be available to all corp personnel (even remote research jobs from NPC stations for blueprints).

Even the artwork is already in the game. There are NPC hubs we've all shot at (Serpentis Hideout, anyone?) and good examples of modPOS'es (Forgotten Frontier Quarantine Outpost for example) that would simply need functionality added to them, that are modular, and wouldn't need new artwork since it's already in game and optimized.


Let's see if CCP can get on board with this.


Long live the failure of "Unified Inventory"!

POS fix dated back to 2006!
Beani Kliadi
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#2605 - 2013-01-28 12:09:08 UTC
I strongly support the improvement to the POS system, after using a POS on many occasions for wormholes, its a laborious task for maintaining and altering the use of the POS. And then you also have to trust all the members of your corporation if they are going to have access to the POS in wormhole space. Then theres the issue of ships floating out of the POS shield, removing the POS, personal Giant Secure Containers, roles and titles (really restrictive).

I also ran a moon mining network in low sec Aridia for my corporation, this became a full time job. Time invested in anchoring and organising 7 POS's over two regions was a logistical nightmare. The POS didn't make it any easier, flying to each Silo and taking the material, in each POS until everything was done. Then you had to start again.

Also had some research and investion POS's in high security space, this was a pain. Very difficult to setup for members role and title wise, and difficult to keep access for each member restricted to that member and not other members or even the corporation station assets.

I hope CCP fixes these issues with the POS system, I'd be quite reluctant to use POS's again unless something is done about roles and titles, structures, the POS bubble, accessability.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#2606 - 2013-01-28 15:12:21 UTC
Even the current system is somewhat salvageable if you'd go after the low-hanging fruit.

- Finish fixing CHAs so that containers, especially audit containers can be fully used (both deposit *and* withdraw) just like you can use them in a corporate hangar in a station.

- Add the ability to repackage items in a CHA.

- Remove the requirement of handing out the "Factory Manager" role in order for regular corp members to use the POS labs/arrays. Anyone without the role should be allowed to install jobs, but can only cancel their own jobs. This is one of the major impediments to doing null / w-space industry because you can't trust that someone won't cancel your jobs in larger corps.

- ME/PE jobs which get cancelled should get partial progress (should be reasonably easy, other then jobs that consume materials). This needs to be done anyway if there is ever a chance of opening up ME/PE research to the public. It mitigates the problem of "what if someone cancels my research job mid-stride".

- Corporate divisions in the SMA. Right now, corps have to abuse the "POS fuel-tech" role in order to setup SMAs which offer more security then the corporate-wide SMA, or you have to do fun things with shield passwords.

- Re-balance the currently useless refining arrays. Make them much faster, use slightly less CPU/PG, and remove the "you'll only ever get 75% back" restriction. Change them so that with skills + implants you can get close to 99%. This is another major roadblock to null-sec and w-space industry.

- Add the faction tower BPCs back into the game as drops.

- Fix the missile/torpedo launcher batteries to not consume CPU.

- Fix the gas refining silos to not require starbase config roles to function.

Higher-hanging fruit:

- Allow access to research/manuf slots based on "titles" (i.e. if you have title X out of the 14 corp titles).

- Add access logs (deposit/take) at the hangar level, not just the audit-container level.

- Add access logs for job cancellation at labs/arrays.

- Add new CHA sizes. Give us a 1M m3 version with same PG/CPU as existing CAA and call it a "small CHA". Add a 8M m3 "large" version which takes 2.5x the CPU/PG of the existing CHA.

- Add more SMA sizes. Specifically something in the 50M m3 range (that is 2x the anchor cost of the current SMA).

- Add new tower sizes. I think a XL (2x the size / cost / fuel of the current large) and a XXL (4x the size/cost/fuel) would be useful. If someone wants something bigger which eats more fuel, then this would be the choice for them.

- Create a "personal" storage array, with 100 slots, each with 100k m3 of storage that members can rent.

- Change hi-sec slot fees to float more. If a hi-sec station keeps <50% of their slots busy one day, then they should cut prices by 1%. Over 50% busy, bump prices up about 1%/day. Over 80% busy, bump prices up 2% per day. Change the base minimum fee to be around 2500 ISK/hr instead of 333 ISK/hr. Let the market decide just how much those slot fees are worth (at around 6-8k/hr POS manuf slots become competitive, and about 9-12k/hr for POS research).
Infinite Force
#2607 - 2013-01-28 16:34:25 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Even the current system is somewhat salvageable if you'd go after the low-hanging fruit.
(clipped)
- Re-balance the currently useless refining arrays. Make them much faster, use slightly less CPU/PG, and remove the "you'll only ever get 75% back" restriction. Change them so that with skills + implants you can get close to 99%. This is another major roadblock to null-sec and w-space industry.
(clipped)

^ This, this, this.

"We want more industry in Null" (or so we've been told).. That's great .. now DO something about it. A little less talk and a lot more action.

Over in the other forum, you can read about an EASY to do change -- [Proposal] Update the POS Refinery Arrays.

Actions will always speak louder than words. Given the lack of communication and lack of action we've seen over the years, there had best be some BIG actions soon.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Frothgar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2608 - 2013-01-28 21:14:25 UTC
I really want to see POS looked at. So many of the functions a POS could in theory do, they never will due to how terribly they do it compared to say a Highsec station.

Its annoyingly hard on WH residents, and I think we deserve some increased functionality for generating such good content for the rest of the players ;)
Astrojet
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2609 - 2013-01-28 21:58:08 UTC
CCP

Fix POS's for goodness sakes. There are numerous possible suggestions here that can be investigated. POS dwellers are everywhere: WH's, Null, Lowsec, Hisec << So this affects ALL of eve, not just one small segment.

I happen to live in a WH with a nice group of players, so I am just a small part of eve. But I have 4 accounts in that WH, and most others have a few accounts as well. At least once a week a corp directors says something about "can't wait for Dec 2013 so POS's are fixed."

We have been patient. Please do not dismiss how we feel about this; or what we will do if SOMETHING is not done.

Astrojet
Shamus O'Reilly
Candy Cabal
#2610 - 2013-01-29 00:53:41 UTC
Is CCP going to respond to this as they had said earlier in this thread? I'm curious as to what they would say

"I swear there are more people complaining over "nullsecers complaining" then actual nullsec people complaining."
Infinite Force
#2611 - 2013-01-29 01:14:59 UTC
Shamus O'Reilly wrote:
Is CCP going to respond to this as they had said earlier in this thread? I'm curious as to what they would say

The 131 pages saying the same thing (albeit important) needs to be 200, 250, 300 pages.

Spread the word to ALL your Corp and Alliance mates. If you know of someone that hasn't posted before, get them here. MAKE them post - make it a requirement before they can join the next PvP, PvE, Mining, Stealth, whatever Op.

Mr. CCP ... "Tear that POS down" and make it right!

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Shamus O'Reilly
Candy Cabal
#2612 - 2013-01-29 01:17:18 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:
Shamus O'Reilly wrote:
Is CCP going to respond to this as they had said earlier in this thread? I'm curious as to what they would say

The 131 pages saying the same thing (albeit important) needs to be 200, 250, 300 pages.

Spread the word to ALL your Corp and Alliance mates. If you know of someone that hasn't posted before, get them here. MAKE them post - make it a requirement before they can join the next PvP, PvE, Mining, Stealth, whatever Op.

Mr. CCP ... "Tear that POS down" and make it right!

heh Lol

"I swear there are more people complaining over "nullsecers complaining" then actual nullsec people complaining."
Haiiro Aurgnet
Celestial Phoenix Industries
#2613 - 2013-01-29 05:42:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Haiiro Aurgnet
no but seriously CCP, this is important =) i cant understand how anyone could ever say POSes are a "small part of the community." They're really prevalent in EVE actually. And really freaking annoying to use. Heck, my corp was just griefed by a long standing member. and there's no way to prevent this from happening without cutting off access to 95% of the corp. Not to mention that anchoring everything in a decent place is a pain in the arse, the refinery SUCKS, the defenses are subpar at best. there are a million logistical nightmares about POSes. dont get me wrong, i highly appreciate their existance, and i will continue to use them whether they change or not because i need to. but, if you want more support and love from your community, for the love of god, revamp these please =)

EDIT: and i do not mean nerf it like you do with every other problem you encounter
John Waddell
Garden Of The Gods
#2614 - 2013-01-29 07:48:19 UTC
Yeah, fix the POSes, plz.
Aroul
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2615 - 2013-01-29 08:24:47 UTC
POS´s must be fixed! By the love of god dont drop the ball on this CCP!
Galinn Ealur
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2616 - 2013-01-29 08:27:59 UTC
Yeah, this aspect affects ppl everywhere and needs to be revised! POS´s have my vote!
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#2617 - 2013-01-29 10:05:08 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Even the current system is somewhat salvageable if you'd go after the low-hanging fruit.

- Finish fixing CHAs so that containers, especially audit containers can be fully used (both deposit *and* withdraw) just like you can use them in a corporate hangar in a station.

- Add the ability to repackage items in a CHA.

- Remove the requirement of handing out the "Factory Manager" role in order for regular corp members to use the POS labs/arrays. Anyone without the role should be allowed to install jobs, but can only cancel their own jobs. This is one of the major impediments to doing null / w-space industry because you can't trust that someone won't cancel your jobs in larger corps.

- ME/PE jobs which get cancelled should get partial progress (should be reasonably easy, other then jobs that consume materials). This needs to be done anyway if there is ever a chance of opening up ME/PE research to the public. It mitigates the problem of "what if someone cancels my research job mid-stride".

- Corporate divisions in the SMA. Right now, corps have to abuse the "POS fuel-tech" role in order to setup SMAs which offer more security then the corporate-wide SMA, or you have to do fun things with shield passwords.

- Re-balance the currently useless refining arrays. Make them much faster, use slightly less CPU/PG, and remove the "you'll only ever get 75% back" restriction. Change them so that with skills + implants you can get close to 99%. This is another major roadblock to null-sec and w-space industry.

- Add the faction tower BPCs back into the game as drops.

- Fix the missile/torpedo launcher batteries to not consume CPU.

- Fix the gas refining silos to not require starbase config roles to function.

Higher-hanging fruit:

- Allow access to research/manuf slots based on "titles" (i.e. if you have title X out of the 14 corp titles).

- Add access logs (deposit/take) at the hangar level, not just the audit-container level.

- Add access logs for job cancellation at labs/arrays.

- Add new CHA sizes. Give us a 1M m3 version with same PG/CPU as existing CAA and call it a "small CHA". Add a 8M m3 "large" version which takes 2.5x the CPU/PG of the existing CHA.

- Add more SMA sizes. Specifically something in the 50M m3 range (that is 2x the anchor cost of the current SMA).

- Add new tower sizes. I think a XL (2x the size / cost / fuel of the current large) and a XXL (4x the size/cost/fuel) would be useful. If someone wants something bigger which eats more fuel, then this would be the choice for them.

- Create a "personal" storage array, with 100 slots, each with 100k m3 of storage that members can rent.

- Change hi-sec slot fees to float more. If a hi-sec station keeps <50% of their slots busy one day, then they should cut prices by 1%. Over 50% busy, bump prices up about 1%/day. Over 80% busy, bump prices up 2% per day. Change the base minimum fee to be around 2500 ISK/hr instead of 333 ISK/hr. Let the market decide just how much those slot fees are worth (at around 6-8k/hr POS manuf slots become competitive, and about 9-12k/hr for POS research).

This is damn good stuff.

I've never understood why POS industry was always punished for refineing this way. Why would anyone use a POS refinery over a station that could given them as much as 33% higher yield for their efforts and in a fraction of the time.

The containers are just common sense. Please act on this CCP!

Friends
ClickNWhir
30plus LLC
Brave Collective
#2618 - 2013-01-29 12:23:46 UTC
POS fix please. I cant think of anything that would make me happier. Except maybe a strip club in space....but people would probably steal my strippers because the strip club would probably suck like the POS system.

Now I'm sad again.

cnw
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#2619 - 2013-01-29 14:31:22 UTC
Newt Rondanse wrote:
If they don't have functionality, it isn't much of a prototype now, is it?


LOL, you'll get no argument from me on that point, but with that said, my understanding of CCP's design process is that art and functionality are 2 different things that at some point have to be combined, so they could realistically call an almost totally art "prototype" a prototype and be semantically correct even if the verbiage is misleading to the general public.

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#2620 - 2013-01-29 14:40:56 UTC
Balder Verdandi wrote:


I honestly can't believe that they cannot take code from elsewhere in the game "that works" and scale it towards a corporate tower, or for lack of a better term, a corporate outpost.

It would function just like NPC stations or alliance built outposts in 0.0 except it would be at the corporate level. Some functions like cloning/medical services, repair services, and insurance wouldn't be available ..... however since all services aren't available at every station, the functionality I speak of translates over to a corp outpost rather well.

Modular POS'es (aka modPOS) would function just like outposts and stations; hangars, factories, labs, and refinery services would be simple add-ons that could be offlined/onlined at will, with the proper permissions, and would be available to all corp personnel (even remote research jobs from NPC stations for blueprints).

Even the artwork is already in the game. There are NPC hubs we've all shot at (Serpentis Hideout, anyone?) and good examples of modPOS'es (Forgotten Frontier Quarantine Outpost for example) that would simply need functionality added to them, that are modular, and wouldn't need new artwork since it's already in game and optimized.

Let's see if CCP can get on board with this.



There's actually another great post such as this about using the current "outpost" mechanics as a template and just scaling down or using already in-game graphics several pages into this thread.

+100

:P

o/
Celly

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.