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Pod Decoy Module

Author
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1 - 2013-01-23 16:12:03 UTC
Have a module, make it a midslot, that has one purpose. Upon destruction of the host vessel, it shoots out multiple decoys of the pilot's pod.
(Skill level required to use, higher level equals higher number of decoys. Perhaps 2 per skill level)
This would generate 2 to 10 decoy pods if the ship was lost, each randomly attempting to align to a different overview beacon.
Upon the warp of the real pod, the others also enter warp towards their own destinations.

They never reach these, self destructing en route. Only the actual pod comes out the other end of the warp tunnel, hopefully clear of hostile pursuit.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-01-23 16:15:01 UTC
You'd think we would already have this, but that would make too much sense.Lol
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#3 - 2013-01-23 18:00:22 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
You'd think we would already have this, but that would make too much sense.Lol

It does seem to be a missing piece to what we have now.

And logic certainly follows to endorse it. Characters with higher clone costs, or expensive implants alone, make the extra effort and sacrifice worth it.

Sure, you loose a mid slot item in exchange. Are you flying in a fleet? Are you about to engage in a battle where you could find yourself in your pod due to ship loss?

Bringing your extra skills and or implants to the battle benefited your side, most likely, so why shouldn't you try to protect that investment?

Risk management. It shouldn't stop just because you are in a pod.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#4 - 2013-01-24 10:06:15 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Have a module, make it a midslot, that has one purpose. Upon destruction of the host vessel, it shoots out multiple decoys of the pilot's pod.
(Skill level required to use, higher level equals higher number of decoys. Perhaps 2 per skill level)
This would generate 2 to 10 decoy pods if the ship was lost, each randomly attempting to align to a different overview beacon.
Upon the warp of the real pod, the others also enter warp towards their own destinations.

They never reach these, self destructing en route. Only the actual pod comes out the other end of the warp tunnel, hopefully clear of hostile pursuit.

what?

it is already IMPOSSIBLE to catch a pod after blowing a ship, unless you use smartbombes (for wich your proposal would do nothing) or bubbles (which mean you are in null / WH, and shall be prepared to loose your pod anyway), or of course, the pilot screw upn meaning he deserve to loose his pod
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#5 - 2013-01-24 14:23:46 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Have a module, make it a midslot, that has one purpose. Upon destruction of the host vessel, it shoots out multiple decoys of the pilot's pod.
(Skill level required to use, higher level equals higher number of decoys. Perhaps 2 per skill level)
This would generate 2 to 10 decoy pods if the ship was lost, each randomly attempting to align to a different overview beacon.
Upon the warp of the real pod, the others also enter warp towards their own destinations.

They never reach these, self destructing en route. Only the actual pod comes out the other end of the warp tunnel, hopefully clear of hostile pursuit.

what?

it is already IMPOSSIBLE to catch a pod after blowing a ship, unless you use smartbombes (for wich your proposal would do nothing) or bubbles (which mean you are in null / WH, and shall be prepared to loose your pod anyway), or of course, the pilot screw upn meaning he deserve to loose his pod

IMPOSSIBLE?
By whose standards do you judge this as impossible?

The kill boards are littered with pod kills. Fear of this is what keeps many pilots from using clones with expensive implants.

It's fine to say you don't see a problem or a need, but let's not pretend it doesn't happen with this amount of evidence.
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#6 - 2013-01-24 14:40:05 UTC
I can't say that I see the need for this, but if you must, ten pods is excessive. One decoy per skill level at most. I shouldn't need an army of interceptors or a bunch of ships stationed with complete smartbomb coverage to pod one guy.

I think that if you commit to living in space where there are bubbles, you should live fast, die young, and leave a good looking set of implants on your lossmail, but that argument verges into "but profitability of nullsec!" and I just don't want to go there since it's beyond my experience and none of my concern.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#7 - 2013-01-24 15:23:14 UTC
DJ P0N-3 wrote:
I can't say that I see the need for this, but if you must, ten pods is excessive. One decoy per skill level at most. I shouldn't need an army of interceptors or a bunch of ships stationed with complete smartbomb coverage to pod one guy.

I think that if you commit to living in space where there are bubbles, you should live fast, die young, and leave a good looking set of implants on your lossmail, but that argument verges into "but profitability of nullsec!" and I just don't want to go there since it's beyond my experience and none of my concern.

I can see your logic, and it is just fine to have an interest in 'finishing the job', so to speak, and killing the pod.

Balance wise I must disagree, however.
I could concede that the skill should be high enough level to make it a burden to train beyond a certain point, like a level 8 skill which can take a month and a half for level 5 in some cases. After all, only characters with expensive clones or high value implants would have strong reason to choose using it.
And those quite often avoid engaging for that reason, meaning you never get a chance at all to fight them.

Two reasons:
1: They possibly lost the fight in order to fit the module.
This is hedging your bets, at the cost of not being able to fit many defensive modules that might easily turn the results of a battle from a loss into a victory. It is only a slam dunk winning idea to fit this if you know for certain that you will win, (and want coverage in case something unexpected happens)...
Or you know you are going to lose that ship, and have no chance of it surviving. Defensive actions, where your job is to play for time so someone else can either come fight, or invaluable assets can be given the chance to be saved. Whatever the reason, sometimes you go into a fight like someone who knows they are coming back in either a pod or their med clone.
Think about which pilots get called primary first in a fleet fight.

2: The pod has no direct offensive capability. Being able to stop or destroy it has not been balanced on this level. True, it is faster and harder to lock, but that means little in situations prepared like some ambushes.
In some situations this improves the pilots chance to survive.
In a few situations it is the pilot's only chance, since the hostile force can pop them casually due to circumstances.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#8 - 2013-01-24 16:17:18 UTC

interesting idea... but meh.... I'm not sure it's worth the developers time:

1.) Pods align instantly... so there is no reason to have dummy pods "align".

2.) I really don't think this is needed:
A.) Highsec/Lowsec... you should be spamming warp as your ship goes down... at which point your pod will insta-warp when you die. There's no reason to use this module here, as you can already get your Pod out safe 98% of the time.
B.) Nullsec... Either the same a case as High/Lowsec... or you are in a bubble, at which point your S.O.L. anyway...

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#9 - 2013-01-24 16:31:21 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

interesting idea... but meh.... I'm not sure it's worth the developers time:

1.) Pods align instantly... so there is no reason to have dummy pods "align".

2.) I really don't think this is needed:
A.) Highsec/Lowsec... you should be spamming warp as your ship goes down... at which point your pod will insta-warp when you die. There's no reason to use this module here, as you can already get your Pod out safe 98% of the time.
B.) Nullsec... Either the same a case as High/Lowsec... or you are in a bubble, at which point your S.O.L. anyway...

I agree, quite many pilots will have little or no use for it.

But there are always situations where you want to be able to fight, but these darned implants are sooo expensive. Qualify this with clone jumping not being a convenient option that is always available in every situation.
(Hold on, let me pop over to the station and change my socks... OOoo, better unplug these implants too, they won't do me any good being lost in this fight!)
Now, add in any pilot whose skills alone makes their med clone worth as much as any ship they would use in a roam.
(Yep, it's a just for fun roam, only using T1 frigs.... Bob won't come though, his med clone costs way more than a fitted frig)

It caters to perception, just like insurance does on anything but a T1 ship with T1 fittings. You feel better about taking risks doing it.
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#10 - 2013-01-24 17:21:45 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
DJ P0N-3 wrote:
I can't say that I see the need for this, but if you must, ten pods is excessive. One decoy per skill level at most. I shouldn't need an army of interceptors or a bunch of ships stationed with complete smartbomb coverage to pod one guy.

I think that if you commit to living in space where there are bubbles, you should live fast, die young, and leave a good looking set of implants on your lossmail, but that argument verges into "but profitability of nullsec!" and I just don't want to go there since it's beyond my experience and none of my concern.

I can see your logic, and it is just fine to have an interest in 'finishing the job', so to speak, and killing the pod.

Balance wise I must disagree, however.
I could concede that the skill should be high enough level to make it a burden to train beyond a certain point, like a level 8 skill which can take a month and a half for level 5 in some cases. After all, only characters with expensive clones or high value implants would have strong reason to choose using it.
And those quite often avoid engaging for that reason, meaning you never get a chance at all to fight them.

Two reasons:
1: They possibly lost the fight in order to fit the module.
This is hedging your bets, at the cost of not being able to fit many defensive modules that might easily turn the results of a battle from a loss into a victory. It is only a slam dunk winning idea to fit this if you know for certain that you will win, (and want coverage in case something unexpected happens)...
Or you know you are going to lose that ship, and have no chance of it surviving. Defensive actions, where your job is to play for time so someone else can either come fight, or invaluable assets can be given the chance to be saved. Whatever the reason, sometimes you go into a fight like someone who knows they are coming back in either a pod or their med clone.
Think about which pilots get called primary first in a fleet fight.

2: The pod has no direct offensive capability. Being able to stop or destroy it has not been balanced on this level. True, it is faster and harder to lock, but that means little in situations prepared like some ambushes.
In some situations this improves the pilots chance to survive.
In a few situations it is the pilot's only chance, since the hostile force can pop them casually due to circumstances.


The reason I give this the side-eye has nothing to do with fleet fights. It has to do with the "get out and stay out" nature of podding in w-space. One of these would become a mainstay of covops fits. I would benefit from it, sure, but I'd rather not trade the possibility of saving my pod from a hero tackle or surprise camp for the hassle of having to bring a small fleet to pod one covops. I'd rather see clonejumping become a little easier to deal with than a pod decoy system if people are really feeling restricted by their implants.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#11 - 2013-01-24 18:03:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikk Narrel
DJ P0N-3 wrote:
The reason I give this the side-eye has nothing to do with fleet fights. It has to do with the "get out and stay out" nature of podding in w-space. One of these would become a mainstay of covops fits. I would benefit from it, sure, but I'd rather not trade the possibility of saving my pod from a hero tackle or surprise camp for the hassle of having to bring a small fleet to pod one covops. I'd rather see clonejumping become a little easier to deal with than a pod decoy system if people are really feeling restricted by their implants.

If it was just implants alone, which I freely admit is the case for many players, that would solve it. Sadly it seems they won't touch clone jumping for fear it would somehow get twisted and abused.

But...
This also deals with perception. The expectation that you can take a limited risk, instead of blowing large amounts of ISK to have fun that is otherwise trivial.
(Yes, many older characters still do silly high risk things for fun. They have so much ISK, the idea of replacing a med clone is meaningless to their wealth)
This is for perception. The expectation that a player can't be careless with a clone that costs more than the fitted ship they are using. This puts them back into the fun business.

Now, the fact it puts them at a disadvantage fitting wise is just a bonus to their enemies.
Would they rather win the fight, but have trouble killing the pod....
Or would they rather loose the fight, pod not an issue for the target.

(Assuming this is not a one sided gank, but a "gud-fite")
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#12 - 2013-01-25 09:38:43 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Nikk Narrel wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Have a module, make it a midslot, that has one purpose. Upon destruction of the host vessel, it shoots out multiple decoys of the pilot's pod.
(Skill level required to use, higher level equals higher number of decoys. Perhaps 2 per skill level)
This would generate 2 to 10 decoy pods if the ship was lost, each randomly attempting to align to a different overview beacon.
Upon the warp of the real pod, the others also enter warp towards their own destinations.

They never reach these, self destructing en route. Only the actual pod comes out the other end of the warp tunnel, hopefully clear of hostile pursuit.

what?

it is already IMPOSSIBLE to catch a pod after blowing a ship, unless you use smartbombes (for wich your proposal would do nothing) or bubbles (which mean you are in null / WH, and shall be prepared to loose your pod anyway), or of course, the pilot screw upn meaning he deserve to loose his pod

IMPOSSIBLE?
By whose standards do you judge this as impossible?

The kill boards are littered with pod kills. Fear of this is what keeps many pilots from using clones with expensive implants.

It's fine to say you don't see a problem or a need, but let's not pretend it doesn't happen with this amount of evidence.


i pod ppl a lot in low, and beside the one i get using smartbombs (cannot be avoided), 90 to 99% of the rest is just fail pilot who sat there (i even catch some with my non sebo hurricane....)

once you know you will die (entering struct), select a nearby celestial spam warp.

even a 3500+ scan res stiletto cannot catch you because of the 1sec lag happening the moment your ship blow, and passed that one sec, you already are in warp.

regarding the pods killed:

1- nullsec, ofc pod get lost there
2- smartbombs
3- pilot fail

this are the only way to loose pod.

if you loose your pod, and there are no bubble or smartbomb (unavoidable) involved, you deserved it and need to go back to pvp school, a stop crying.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#13 - 2013-01-25 12:37:44 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Have a module, make it a midslot, that has one purpose. Upon destruction of the host vessel, it shoots out multiple decoys of the pilot's pod.
(Skill level required to use, higher level equals higher number of decoys. Perhaps 2 per skill level)
This would generate 2 to 10 decoy pods if the ship was lost, each randomly attempting to align to a different overview beacon.
Upon the warp of the real pod, the others also enter warp towards their own destinations.

They never reach these, self destructing en route. Only the actual pod comes out the other end of the warp tunnel, hopefully clear of hostile pursuit.

what?

it is already IMPOSSIBLE to catch a pod after blowing a ship, unless you use smartbombes (for wich your proposal would do nothing) or bubbles (which mean you are in null / WH, and shall be prepared to loose your pod anyway), or of course, the pilot screw upn meaning he deserve to loose his pod

or instalock frigs

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#14 - 2013-01-25 14:50:23 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
i pod ppl a lot in low, and beside the one i get using smartbombs (cannot be avoided), 90 to 99% of the rest is just fail pilot who sat there (i even catch some with my non sebo hurricane....)

once you know you will die (entering struct), select a nearby celestial spam warp.

even a 3500+ scan res stiletto cannot catch you because of the 1sec lag happening the moment your ship blow, and passed that one sec, you already are in warp.

regarding the pods killed:

1- nullsec, ofc pod get lost there
2- smartbombs
3- pilot fail

this are the only way to loose pod.

if you loose your pod, and there are no bubble or smartbomb (unavoidable) involved, you deserved it and need to go back to pvp school, a stop crying.

This assumes a perfectly level playing field.

It assumes the pilot's client correctly loads the new circumstances and portrays the pod as the appropriate ship.
It assumes the player to understand the circumstances, and this aspect also relies on the one above it.

Now, knowing perfectly well a pilot playing in a different country than his opponent, also very likely faces a different quality of internet connection with corresponding lag potential, and you see why other game aspects try to balance this using familiar mechanics.
(IE: When you gate into a new system, you have a gate cloak specifically so your client has the time to update and you don't see a first screen showing a station where your med clone is located)

This does not address that. At all.
Don't kid yourself, it is an accepted detail that some pod kills do happen outside the control of the defending pilot.
Even you acknowledge this, as shown by your reference "select a nearby celestial spam warp".
Quite simply, you don't need to spam anything if the client and server are properly sync'ed. The fact you suggested this means that on some level you are aware of this, even if you are just repeating something you heard somewhere else.

But like insurance, it helps soften the perception surrounding it, making it more acceptable as a risk.
From the forums, it is easy to say EVE is a game. But when you are making choices inside the game itself, it helps if you can feel safer taking risks.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#15 - 2013-01-28 10:32:06 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
i pod ppl a lot in low, and beside the one i get using smartbombs (cannot be avoided), 90 to 99% of the rest is just fail pilot who sat there (i even catch some with my non sebo hurricane....)

once you know you will die (entering struct), select a nearby celestial spam warp.

even a 3500+ scan res stiletto cannot catch you because of the 1sec lag happening the moment your ship blow, and passed that one sec, you already are in warp.

regarding the pods killed:

1- nullsec, ofc pod get lost there
2- smartbombs
3- pilot fail

this are the only way to loose pod.

if you loose your pod, and there are no bubble or smartbomb (unavoidable) involved, you deserved it and need to go back to pvp school, a stop crying.

This assumes a perfectly level playing field.

It assumes the pilot's client correctly loads the new circumstances and portrays the pod as the appropriate ship.
It assumes the player to understand the circumstances, and this aspect also relies on the one above it.

Now, knowing perfectly well a pilot playing in a different country than his opponent, also very likely faces a different quality of internet connection with corresponding lag potential, and you see why other game aspects try to balance this using familiar mechanics.
(IE: When you gate into a new system, you have a gate cloak specifically so your client has the time to update and you don't see a first screen showing a station where your med clone is located)

This does not address that. At all.
Don't kid yourself, it is an accepted detail that some pod kills do happen outside the control of the defending pilot.
Even you acknowledge this, as shown by your reference "select a nearby celestial spam warp".
Quite simply, you don't need to spam anything if the client and server are properly sync'ed. The fact you suggested this means that on some level you are aware of this, even if you are just repeating something you heard somewhere else.

But like insurance, it helps soften the perception surrounding it, making it more acceptable as a risk.
From the forums, it is easy to say EVE is a game. But when you are making choices inside the game itself, it helps if you can feel safer taking risks.

i have the chance of having a really good connection to the eve server, and the "lag" i'm referring between the ship kill and pod appearance is not the network lag, but the server tick required to change the pilot state from "in a ship" to "in a pod" + a wreck.

during this period of time, even a über seboed inty CANNOT grab a pod proided the pilot does it well.

only thing that could result in a pod kill are, as i said, bubbles, smartbombs, or pilot dumbness.

it could happen that a technical issue is involved, and in such a case, then a petition shall be filled, since the loss is not incured accordingly to game mechanics.

i play for several years pvp in eve, along with many friends, on many accounts, lost hundreds of ships, killed even more.

my point still stand, outside of the cases i've ennonced, one cannot loose his pod in low.

it is even easier to save the pod now, since the point are bugged, i saw 2 pods last weekend warp out while they were scrammed for at least 2 sec and at range (like if the were WCS).

10 months ago it was possible to catch pods on gates with a 3500+ scan res stiletto, this is not possible anymore, the pods agility has been buffed making them insta warp, you cannot even initiate lock now.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#16 - 2013-01-28 10:42:55 UTC
Having high SP is a direct benefit over lower SP, and this is balanced by clone costs
Having expensive implants give direct benefits over poor players, and this balanced by the risk of losing them.

Sounds like a having and eating the cake -case.



.

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#17 - 2013-01-28 14:38:41 UTC
Roime wrote:
Having high SP is a direct benefit over lower SP, and this is balanced by clone costs
Having expensive implants give direct benefits over poor players, and this balanced by the risk of losing them.

Sounds like a having and eating the cake -case.

If the module did not require a sacrifice to use, I might agree.

Losing a mid slot, on a great many fits, often makes the difference in flying home in your ship or not.
This costs that mid slot, as well as a good chunk of time training.

The value, quite simply, is that it will create a perception of better survivability in the post fight moments.
In a pod, you have lost all modules, the ship's hull, as well as anything it had in cargo or other storage areas.
You cannot shoot, or perform other direct offensive actions.

Being in this situation, with any degree of likelihood, is enough to deter some pilots from participating at all in events considered trivial.
It can be due to implants or high value med clones, but if the player avoids fighting, noone even got a chance at killing them.

So, in my opinion, it is not having and eating the cake -case.

It is either the cake only being served on special occasions, or making more occasions special -case.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#18 - 2013-01-28 14:42:18 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
10 months ago it was possible to catch pods on gates with a 3500+ scan res stiletto, this is not possible anymore, the pods agility has been buffed making them insta warp, you cannot even initiate lock now.

This would almost be good enough, except for the ease and availability of dictors, hictors, and basic anchorable bubbles.

Even assuming the pilot could get into warp normally, if noone can warp even this idea makes it a challenge to survive.

But it also makes it possible.
A pod in a bubble pops very easily on it's own, otherwise.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#19 - 2013-01-28 15:02:26 UTC
Don't mean to nit pick Nikk:

Player A gets ganked in the middle of a bubble in soviet mordor. His pod along with decoys gets popped before they leave ze bubbly.

Value added?

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#20 - 2013-01-28 15:41:11 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Don't mean to nit pick Nikk:

Player A gets ganked in the middle of a bubble in soviet mordor. His pod along with decoys gets popped before they leave ze bubbly.

Value added?

Absolutely.

Like I mentioned, the perception of risk is being addressed as much if not more than the reality of it.

If the player avoids going out at all, any PvP that still happens is lessened by their absence. Assuming the PvP happens at all without them being there.

Like insurance, it's a feel good thing that makes people more willing to take risks, it doesn't completely avoid the risks.

Big smile
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