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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Jane Travelstar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1761 - 2013-01-27 21:45:57 UTC
Krisaana Stormrider wrote:
Maybe I am missing something. Why is the Drake keeping the kinetic-only bonus? I figured this was a legacy thing that would surely be removed in the tier updates.

Has anyone ever explained the motivation for why this exists?

+1

Seriously,

What are we doing here, running Guristas-only missions?!
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#1762 - 2013-01-27 21:52:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Alidiana
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
Shade Alidiana wrote:
Or maybe there'll be a t2 version of each tier 2 BC, which will cost 300-400 mil isk and still be dedicated to pleasure of PVE as it can be on a BC?

Gosh, I'm willing to pay a billion just to get an operational Hurricane...


either switch to newcyclone, which should cater to your style much better then the cane, or train for a vargur which would be a one billion, fully operational, active shield tanked hurricane on steroids.
should not take more then 2 days to train HAMs to a good niveau.


Missiles (any kind of) are just... cheated easy. You press f1 and look at the result, the only thing your flight affects is incoming dps.
Artillery needs special patterns to hit fast targets, need the ship to maneuver all the time and keep close to deal high damage while being able to go far and avoid it or just to shoot fast/small targets, and 1001 other things to do with a ship only tanked with his guns, medium SB and 10mn AB.. Oh yes, how could I have forget a damage control, the only module to keep the ship alive on some missions.

I like Fleet Issue Tempest, yes, but it's not that challenging. Vargur? Even more boring, not talking about its new appearance (a nightmare for me).

I'll most likely have to switch to HAC..
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#1763 - 2013-01-27 21:58:01 UTC
miiriiah wrote:
Shade Alidiana wrote:
Could you at least sometimes think of PVEers?

Active shield-speed-dps tanked hurricane was so nice.. I've learned for a month with a bit to fully online it again, but now seems everything is damned and I have to... just sell my most loved ship?

Many other things seem to get worse as well.. Maybe except gallenteans and amarrs.

Hope to be heared,
Shade.


What exactly is being nerfed about your Hurricane for PVE? losing a high slot, WOW WHAT A WHOOPING HUGE NERF, stop whining and l2p, nothing is being nerfed about cane for PVE bar a tiny bit of velocity, loss of like... an unbonused launcher! WOW!

If that's too big of a nerf for you then I suggest you just quit ASAP


It seems to be moved to armor. And yes, the launcher.
And yes, the SPEED, which is unmatched now. I'll forget about t3s this time.

What is Hurricane? Fast agile thing with extreme dps (although not suited for most npcs resistances) without tank, which relies on its ability to outtrack and outrun enemies.
miiriiah
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1764 - 2013-01-27 22:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: miiriiah
Shade Alidiana wrote:
miiriiah wrote:
Shade Alidiana wrote:
Could you at least sometimes think of PVEers?

Active shield-speed-dps tanked hurricane was so nice.. I've learned for a month with a bit to fully online it again, but now seems everything is damned and I have to... just sell my most loved ship?

Many other things seem to get worse as well.. Maybe except gallenteans and amarrs.

Hope to be heared,
Shade.


What exactly is being nerfed about your Hurricane for PVE? losing a high slot, WOW WHAT A WHOOPING HUGE NERF, stop whining and l2p, nothing is being nerfed about cane for PVE bar a tiny bit of velocity, loss of like... an unbonused launcher! WOW!

If that's too big of a nerf for you then I suggest you just quit ASAP


It seems to be moved to armor. And yes, the launcher.
And yes, the SPEED, which is unmatched now. I'll forget about t3s this time.

What is Hurricane? Fast agile thing with extreme dps (although not suited for most npcs resistances) without tank, which relies on its ability to outtrack and outrun enemies.


You can still easily do that. losing like 10 ms isn't a very big deal.

If 10 m/s makes your ship obsolete, then you must be using your ship for something very strange.
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#1765 - 2013-01-27 22:12:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Alidiana
miiriiah wrote:
Shade Alidiana wrote:
miiriiah wrote:
Shade Alidiana wrote:
Could you at least sometimes think of PVEers?

Active shield-speed-dps tanked hurricane was so nice.. I've learned for a month with a bit to fully online it again, but now seems everything is damned and I have to... just sell my most loved ship?

Many other things seem to get worse as well.. Maybe except gallenteans and amarrs.

Hope to be heared,
Shade.


What exactly is being nerfed about your Hurricane for PVE? losing a high slot, WOW WHAT A WHOOPING HUGE NERF, stop whining and l2p, nothing is being nerfed about cane for PVE bar a tiny bit of velocity, loss of like... an unbonused launcher! WOW!

If that's too big of a nerf for you then I suggest you just quit ASAP


It seems to be moved to armor. And yes, the launcher.
And yes, the SPEED, which is unmatched now. I'll forget about t3s this time.

What is Hurricane? Fast agile thing with extreme dps (although not suited for most npcs resistances) without tank, which relies on its ability to outtrack and outrun enemies.


You can still easily do that. losing like 10 ms isn't a very big deal.

Hey, he's bigger now and that mass addition is going to decrease overal maneuvrability and AB speed.
+ I lose the launcher, almost 50 dps. Quite a lot for me. Maybe will have to switch another one to something else, one launcher isn't worth of carrying missiles for it..

Well, yes. Very strange. Just trying to play at NPC rules. No warp out, no RR, just the ship (not as overpowered as battleships are) and the way to fly it in continuous.. dance?
miiriiah
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1766 - 2013-01-27 22:18:30 UTC
Shade Alidiana wrote:
miiriiah wrote:
Shade Alidiana wrote:
miiriiah wrote:
Shade Alidiana wrote:
Could you at least sometimes think of PVEers?

Active shield-speed-dps tanked hurricane was so nice.. I've learned for a month with a bit to fully online it again, but now seems everything is damned and I have to... just sell my most loved ship?

Many other things seem to get worse as well.. Maybe except gallenteans and amarrs.

Hope to be heared,
Shade.


What exactly is being nerfed about your Hurricane for PVE? losing a high slot, WOW WHAT A WHOOPING HUGE NERF, stop whining and l2p, nothing is being nerfed about cane for PVE bar a tiny bit of velocity, loss of like... an unbonused launcher! WOW!

If that's too big of a nerf for you then I suggest you just quit ASAP


It seems to be moved to armor. And yes, the launcher.
And yes, the SPEED, which is unmatched now. I'll forget about t3s this time.

What is Hurricane? Fast agile thing with extreme dps (although not suited for most npcs resistances) without tank, which relies on its ability to outtrack and outrun enemies.


You can still easily do that. losing like 10 ms isn't a very big deal.

Hey, he's bigger now and that mass addition is going to decrease overal maneuvrability and AB speed.
+ I lose the launcher, almost 50 dps. Quite a lot for me. Maybe will have to switch another one to something else, one launcher isn't worth of carrying missiles for it..


50 dps?? not even a heavy assault missile launcher with all 5's and rage HAM does that much dps.


And what fit are you using exactly?
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#1767 - 2013-01-27 22:25:35 UTC
6 650 artys 2 HMLs
10mn ab, tracking computer, med shield booster with boost amplifier
dcu, pds, te, 3 gyros
collision accelerator, ambit extension (thinking of swapping to something for range), semiconductor

5 hobgoblins 1 armor bot

shooting mostly plasma and titanium while still carrying some emps and fusions for npcs that love them, all kinds of missiles, quakes for angel BS reaching and exceeding 600 dps with this. The fit is mixed t2/faction.
miiriiah
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1768 - 2013-01-27 22:32:42 UTC
Shade Alidiana wrote:
6 650 artys 2 HMLs
10mn ab, tracking computer, med shield booster with boost amplifier
dcu, pds, te, 3 gyros
collision accelerator, ambit extension (thinking of swapping to something for range), semiconductor

5 hobgoblins 1 armor bot

shooting mostly plasma and titanium while still carrying some emps and fusions for npcs that love them, all kinds of missiles, quakes for angel BS reaching and exceeding 600 dps with this. The fit is mixed t2/faction.


[Hurricane, New Setup 2]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

10MN Afterburner II
Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Explosive Deflection Field II

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
Salvager II
[empty high slot]

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Core Defense Operational Solidifier I

607 dps, cheaper faction ammo(slower RoF), can change gyro for more range, but even with 2 TE's it way outranges yours, tiny agi loss and 5-6 m/s loss is rather insignificant.

And warriors > hobgoblins for angels
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#1769 - 2013-01-27 22:43:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Alidiana
miiriiah wrote:
Shade Alidiana wrote:
6 650 artys 2 HMLs
10mn ab, tracking computer, med shield booster with boost amplifier
dcu, pds, te, 3 gyros
collision accelerator, ambit extension (thinking of swapping to something for range), semiconductor

5 hobgoblins 1 armor bot

shooting mostly plasma and titanium while still carrying some emps and fusions for npcs that love them, all kinds of missiles, quakes for angel BS reaching and exceeding 600 dps with this. The fit is mixed t2/faction.


[Hurricane, New Setup 2]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

10MN Afterburner II
Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Explosive Deflection Field II

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
Salvager II
[empty high slot]

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Core Defense Operational Solidifier I

607 dps, cheaper faction ammo(slower RoF), can change gyro for more range, but even with 2 TE's it way outranges yours, tiny agi loss and 5-6 m/s loss is rather insignificant.

And warriors > hobgoblins for angels


Anything more universal, without any refitting to run whatever mission out there? But I like the fitting (except the salvager and no TC), although it may have troubles in close. At least after some changes it's worth testing. (errrm what, small booster?!)

And I didn't even calculate my dps with faction ammo..
miiriiah
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1770 - 2013-01-27 22:45:40 UTC  |  Edited by: miiriiah
Shade Alidiana wrote:
miiriiah wrote:
Shade Alidiana wrote:
6 650 artys 2 HMLs
10mn ab, tracking computer, med shield booster with boost amplifier
dcu, pds, te, 3 gyros
collision accelerator, ambit extension (thinking of swapping to something for range), semiconductor

5 hobgoblins 1 armor bot

shooting mostly plasma and titanium while still carrying some emps and fusions for npcs that love them, all kinds of missiles, quakes for angel BS reaching and exceeding 600 dps with this. The fit is mixed t2/faction.


[Hurricane, New Setup 2]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

10MN Afterburner II
Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Explosive Deflection Field II

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion M
Salvager II
[empty high slot]

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Core Defense Operational Solidifier I

607 dps, cheaper faction ammo(slower RoF), can change gyro for more range, but even with 2 TE's it way outranges yours, tiny agi loss and 5-6 m/s loss is rather insignificant.

And warriors > hobgoblins for angels


Anything more universal, without any refitting to run whatever mission out there? But I like the fitting (except the salvager and no TC), although it may have troubles in close. At least after some changes it's worth testing. (errrm what, small booster?!)


Pithi B small > medium t2 booster

And TE > TC overall, and if you think you'd need the tracking script for 720's, you arent' flying your ship properly 8)
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#1771 - 2013-01-27 22:50:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Alidiana
More used to medium dread guristas. more boost at the cost of cap, and it's comparatively cheap. The fit lives around 6 minutes with my implants and skills.

I've tested 720 without any accuracy mods on a Huginn... Hurricane is slower, so might have troubles without the huginn's web and tp. And also there are range issues sometimes, maybe that's just the feeling because of huginn's huge lock.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#1772 - 2013-01-27 23:12:58 UTC
Shade Alidiana wrote:
all the things you said.


if you don't want to train missiles for the cyclone, thats ok. i have flown the cane for a long time too, with a very similar fitting.
however the cane is post-patch still fine for the things you want to do. there is now reason to boost it torwards PVE content.

(although off topic: i can't understand how you think the vargur is boring. you can do so much more PVE content with a vargur, the cane never could cope with.... but suit yourself ;) )
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#1773 - 2013-01-27 23:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Alidiana
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
Shade Alidiana wrote:
all the things you said.


if you don't want to train missiles for the cyclone, thats ok. i have flown the cane for a long time too, with a very similar fitting.
however the cane is post-patch still fine for the things you want to do. there is now reason to boost it torwards PVE content.

(although off topic: i can't understand how you think the vargur is boring. you can do so much more PVE content with a vargur, the cane never could cope with.... but suit yourself ;) )


That fit is what does every lvl4 out there for me since.. 2010? Maybe so. I continue to upgrade it and train for it, some time ago becoming capable to do what i said: no re-entering. At any mission. What can Vargur offer me? Tank, mostly. It's generally tankier and more accurate than tempest and more cost-effecient, but.. Tempest is enough for l4s as well.
BTW missiles are in all those fittings so I had to train them. What can be better then a HAM for AC ship or HM for arty one? There's always 1-2 empty "utility" high slots.

I started considering null/wh pve some time ago, still don't go to pvp because of.. just dislike blowing someone up, however it can cause interesting conversation after the fight. At the same time, I love shooting. So NPCs are like target drones.

P. S.
I really love Naga now, but it can't boast completing every mission.. Sometimes it needs assistance to takeb out orbiting frigs that are initially too close for rails to hit. And Hurri is always a ship for continuous joy of fight, when isk are not considered worth a thought (but with the concern to save ammo if possible)

P. P. S.
Under nullsec pve I mean not claimed nullsec but raiding. Maybe I'm an idiot, but that's a lot more entertaining
To mare
Advanced Technology
#1774 - 2013-01-28 03:50:50 UTC  |  Edited by: To mare
i dont really like all those 10% bonus (except the drones one)

they make kind of useless double damage bonused ships like the hurricane since it take 2 bonus to get a slightly better performance than 1, brutix drake harbinger get a +50% dps with 1 bonus, the cane get a +58% using 2 bonus and they all have the same nmuber of turrets or launchers (which is why the assault ships whit a 10% bonus have only 1 bonus and not 2 )

they put too much difference from lv4 to lv5





no one fit gang links now on BCs i dont see the situation changing anytime soon so i dont really see the reason for this last last rebalancing most of the ppl just want a free utility high for a neut also this last change really boost a ship wich dont need boosting the drake and it boost the brutix in a wrong way, that ship need its armor rep changed for something else i dont really care what give it back 7 turret and the 5% bonus and switch the rep bonus for something useful tracking, falloff, hell even another damage bonus but at leas it will use 2 bonus for the uber dps


edit
also the cyclone im not against the change to missile boat BUT 5 launcher whit 33% dps bonus VS drake 6 launchers whit 50% bonus, a active tanking bonus of 7,5% which give the SAME results of the 5% resistance of the same drake for active shield boosting and no EHP goodies just balance with an extra flight of lights or 60 more dps if you want to use a flight of medium instead of smalls.
this ship really need some love.
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1775 - 2013-01-28 04:36:56 UTC
I'm confused about the Cyclone too.

I'd go as far and say I'm actually happy with Cyclone's current bonuses/layout - even if it is crap in public and on the field. I really don't know if the Sebiestor engineers are going to listen to this one :D.
I'm not a fan of a Hurricane clone (no pun), so I understand the idea of going missiles as that is intended to be Minmatar's secondary. But in all honesty, I just find it doesn't fit this ship well.

Since it is a Command Ship's base hull, I was hoping if we could actually see more buddy-orientated traits. Somewhere, Ferox could need this too as the other two BCs outweight specific aspects.
In other words, I'd almost want to see Cyclone/Ferox have additional midslots so they can at least be flexible enough to provide Ewar or buddy-buffing stuff.
The role bonus imo should be changed to a general gang supporting modules bonus; that being Tracking Links, Remote Sensor Booster, ECCM.

Or heck, neut range, despite that being more of an Amarr trait. But you get my drift regarding some versatility/out of the box suggestion.

I don't see any sense in asking for more DPS as one would just have to go for Hurricane or anything else non-Ferox on Caldari BC side. Likewise, missile RoF for Cyclone -> meh. In other words, I don't really see why anyone should go for Cyclone when Hurricane is clearly going to be topdog - and I'm already excluding the Tornado.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1776 - 2013-01-28 05:21:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
To mare wrote:
i dont really like all those 10% bonus (except the drones one)

they make kind of useless double damage bonused ships like the hurricane since it take 2 bonus to get a slightly better performance than 1, brutix drake harbinger get a +50% dps with 1 bonus, the cane get a +58% using 2 bonus

It's 66.(6)% actually (1*1.25/0.75) since bonuses multiply each other, but yeah...

No idea why CCP insists on such a big difference between cruisers and BCs. I mean, extra slot or two plus twice HP is already a fair trade for mobility, why should there also exist such a huge DPS gain from bonuses? This 'special treatment' case introduces a really dangerous precedent.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#1777 - 2013-01-28 05:32:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
I got on today and tried out both the Harbinger and Cyclone. My current fit on TQ with the Harb is heavy pulses and a 1600 plate. In order to achieve that I need both a genolution set of implants (3% more pg) AND a medium ACR. I'm happy to say that the implants are enough with the future Harb to get the same fit without the rig help. As I'm able to fit a third trimark the EHP doesn't take a hit.

You can of course skip the implants and use a MACR but your EHP will suffer then. The firepower was pretty jaw-dropping. I have damage implants. With those, conflag, two heat sinks, and a flight of Valkyries I was getting a blistering 890 DPS overheated. Room for a small nuet and a flight of lights gives the Harb some frigate protection. I took it into a few fights and it handled pretty well. A little slow to warp out but we all expected that.

The Cyclone is a ridiculously tight fit. I posted a fit for it earlier. Here it is again:
High:
HAM II x 5
Medium unstable neut
Small unstable neut
Mid:
Experimental MWD
X-LASB
Adaptive Invuln II
Faint Epsilon Scrambler
Fleeting propulsion inhibitor
Low:
Internal force field array
BCU II x 2
Overdrive II
Nano II
Rigs:
EM shield x 2
Thermal

2-3 CPU to spare. I didn't have my geno set on this one. Consistent if mediocre DPS. One medium and one small neut is great utility even if it drives my OCD crazy. Great Burst tank. The one outstanding feature that is unsung is it's speed. 2268m/s overheated.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#1778 - 2013-01-28 07:38:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakan MacTrew
To mare wrote:
i dont really like all those 10% bonus (except the drones one)

they make kind of useless double damage bonused ships like the hurricane since it take 2 bonus to get a slightly better performance than 1, brutix drake harbinger get a +50% dps with 1 bonus, the cane get a +58% using 2 bonus and they all have the same nmuber of turrets or launchers

The Drake will gain 3% overall kinetic damage from its missiles and a utility slot it will struggle to fill. In exchange it is losing almost 15% of any other missile types damage. Please do enlighten me as to how terrible this buff is for all non Drake users.

Admittedly, for PvE purposes, of the 13 races you can fight, (not including Jove or Sleepers given their omnitank,) kinetic is only the primary or secondary vulnerability for 69%. What a crying shame...

Friends
Alghara
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#1779 - 2013-01-28 09:47:45 UTC
About Prophecy.

Pls make a modification on the bandwitch 75 is really not easy to use.

Drone bonus (10%) ---> 12.5 %
Bandwitch (75) --> 50

That will be better

Harbinger Still to difficult for the fitting ( we have some problem pwd or cpu) depend what you would like to fit.

Drake damage bonus on all resistance.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#1780 - 2013-01-28 11:42:50 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
To mare wrote:
i dont really like all those 10% bonus (except the drones one)

they make kind of useless double damage bonused ships like the hurricane since it take 2 bonus to get a slightly better performance than 1, brutix drake harbinger get a +50% dps with 1 bonus, the cane get a +58% using 2 bonus and they all have the same nmuber of turrets or launchers

The Drake will gain 3% overall kinetic damage from its missiles and a utility slot it will struggle to fill. In exchange it is losing almost 15% of any other missile types damage. Please do enlighten me as to how terrible this buff is for all non Drake users.

Admittedly, for PvE purposes, of the 13 races you can fight, (not including Jove or Sleepers given their omnitank,) kinetic is only the primary or secondary vulnerability for 69%. What a crying shame...



my complain its a boost for pvp where you goin to se kin anyway but i understand pve user.
so thats my point give it back the 7 launcher and 5%bonus.