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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#1741 - 2013-01-26 23:36:17 UTC
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
However put "Combat Battlecruiser" is as non-sensical as using a word as a "garden tool rake" since a gardener in his infinite wisdom decided his rakes needed categorizing since he had several.
That said I liked your post :D

Apparently there's nothing important left to discuss. /thread. Big smile
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
#1742 - 2013-01-27 00:46:30 UTC
Luc Chastot.
I understand their class definition, it doesn't make sense from a lingual point of view.
That is all, it is using the same definition twice essentially.
Tag the ship as "Combat class" in ship details.
But don't name it, and shame it.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1743 - 2013-01-27 01:41:46 UTC
Having tested the Hurricane with a handfull of various fits/setups it looks like I always had plenty cpu and PG wasn't really an issue either. I've come to believe the Hurricane could easily be without 15-20 base cpu and still pull off amazing setups easily.

Pinky
Rabbit P
Nuwa Foundation
Fraternity.
#1744 - 2013-01-27 03:06:33 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ok time to get feedback on the next iteration.

Drake:
Change Kinetic Missile damage bonus from 5 to 10% per level
Launchers: -1
Powergrid: -40
CPU: -15
Hull: -250

Brutix:
Change Medium Hybrid damage bonus from 5 to 10% per level
Turrets: -1
Powergrid: -75
Hull: -250
Mass: +250,000
Align time: +0.1s



more and more ships are getting a 10% damage bonus per level
I concern about this will make the ship's ability concentrate in one skill.

Refer to
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2153564#post2153564
"bonus is too big a part of the overall picture at the moment"
and
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2503173#post2503173
"and many players will find quickly training it to level 2-3 will get them most of the way to the bonus enjoyed by an older player at a far lower time commitment. "

It seem the 10% bones "won't get them most of the way to the bonus enjoyed by an older player "
it is ok for T2 hull but may not for damage bonus on T1 hull.

Maybe that's not a big problem and difficult to find another way to free one high slot, but I just want to raise this concern .
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1745 - 2013-01-27 04:55:13 UTC
So Drake's damage output is now actually getting increased overall? That's unpredictable, to put it mildly. Who could have thought of it few months ago, back when you nerfed heavy missiles mainly because of Drake.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Mund Richard
#1746 - 2013-01-27 05:03:54 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
So Drake's damage output is now actually getting increased overall? That's unpredictable, to put it mildly. Who could have thought of it few months ago, back when you nerfed heavy missiles mainly because of Drake.

Only it's kinetic, the rest are getting nerfed.

But yes, it's funny.
At least the Tengu isn't getting buffed.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1747 - 2013-01-27 05:09:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
All in all these changes now make very little sense if bringing down what was probably the most OP ship class in the whole game (bar supers, ofc) was the initial goal. Binger and Drake now deal increased damage, Cane hardly loses anything at all. What's the point? There was a reason tier2s were that popular and they surely didn't become balanced just cause of you rolling out yet another OP class of battlecruisers (tier3s). Re-shaping tier1s is a good thing, but then again, seems like you're bringing more ships to tier2s level rather than fixing just them alone. How is that not a power creep? Now HACs and all the others will inevitably get boosted quite considerably, too.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1748 - 2013-01-27 05:21:39 UTC
I agree the amounts of dps and the amount of suddenly 10% bonus are very concerning.
Don't forget however these gank mobiles have much less EHP than former tier 2 BCs with these changes and it will at least rule out Drakes for the same kind of fleets as before and cruisers have a much easier time taking down a battlecruiser after these changes. Unfortunately it is these amounts of dps screwing over active tanking, but apart from that the battlecruisers aren't that bad (still waiting for tier 3 balance).

Still I see lots of weird choices and decissions like Amarr having one 7 lowslot ship with resist bonus and one 6 lowslot ship with no tank bonus and a boring cap bonus to lasers... And both Gallente ships having a rep bonus just because they want to promote their new "forget-the-old-imbalance-and-use-our-new module" philosophy.

Also Drake and Ferox doing about the same dps, both having a resist bonus but Drake having one more medslot than the other. Ferox will need web more than anything though ofcouse it's very handy on a HAM Drake too.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1749 - 2013-01-27 05:32:59 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:

Also Drake and Ferox doing about the same dps, both having a resist bonus but Drake having one more medslot than the other.

Right. I don't see how anyone can come with such an idea and still proclaim a tiercide. Extra high causes way less problems balance-wise than another low or mid. Should you give a NH 8th high right now hardly anyone would notice it, but make it another mid or low... wow, that would be gorgeous.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1750 - 2013-01-27 13:20:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
If you want to keep up the "Amarr have few midslots" thing you need to make up for it somehow. And seeing how amarr are supposedly the cap warfare race i'd think a slot for nos would be great
If a Maller has terrible tracking wouldn't it be a bad idea to be close enough to be in Nos range? I'm asking as a legit question cuz I have ZERO experience using lasers. I would of thought that a cap booster would be almost mandatory on a laserboat, leaving only 2 slots for prop and a point.


Maller is to slow to dictate range, thus at some point your target will be closed to you.
The Maller tracks other cruisers decently as long it has a web
If nos was buffed and the change i suggested done the Maller could fit a web instead of a cap booster. It would probably still not be very good because lasers are kinda lol at everything other than doing the scorch thing. But it wouldn't be the pile of **** it is today.


Johnson Oramara wrote:


So my corp has been under wardecs constantly and there's nothing we can do about it, not even fight back...

Me and all my corp mates are all caldari pilots and used to run L4's happily. We have decent skills for caldari ships and missiles only.

At beginning we had little success but now our enemies learned that we can only fly caldari ships and use missiles decently and very poor skills on gunnery they just slap 2 kinetic hardeners on their ships and since drakes has been the only option against them there is nothing we can really do against them now. Our other damage types dps are laughable and with their hardeners we barely tickle them with kinetic missiles too.

This proposed change to drake will make it even worse. Is it really intended that you can counter these ships so easily?


If you know they fit kinetic missiles use other missiles... Even with the massive lack of damage bonus you will be hitting them in a completely untanked hole

Its not their or CCP's fault that you are being predictable. (Note that with the proposed changes you could train to use a cyclone in 2-3 days and give them a nasty surprise with their kin hardeners?)

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1751 - 2013-01-27 16:09:54 UTC
amarr are the (victims of-) cap warfare race

people still want to lose all those cap bonuses apparently
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1752 - 2013-01-27 16:10:03 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
If you want to keep up the "Amarr have few midslots" thing you need to make up for it somehow. And seeing how amarr are supposedly the cap warfare race i'd think a slot for nos would be great
If a Maller has terrible tracking wouldn't it be a bad idea to be close enough to be in Nos range? I'm asking as a legit question cuz I have ZERO experience using lasers. I would of thought that a cap booster would be almost mandatory on a laserboat, leaving only 2 slots for prop and a point.


Maller is to slow to dictate range, thus at some point your target will be closed to you.
The Maller tracks other cruisers decently as long it has a web
If nos was buffed and the change i suggested done the Maller could fit a web instead of a cap booster. It would probably still not be very good because lasers are kinda lol at everything other than doing the scorch thing. But it wouldn't be the pile of **** it is today.


Johnson Oramara wrote:


So my corp has been under wardecs constantly and there's nothing we can do about it, not even fight back...

Me and all my corp mates are all caldari pilots and used to run L4's happily. We have decent skills for caldari ships and missiles only.

At beginning we had little success but now our enemies learned that we can only fly caldari ships and use missiles decently and very poor skills on gunnery they just slap 2 kinetic hardeners on their ships and since drakes has been the only option against them there is nothing we can really do against them now. Our other damage types dps are laughable and with their hardeners we barely tickle them with kinetic missiles too.

This proposed change to drake will make it even worse. Is it really intended that you can counter these ships so easily?


If you know they fit kinetic missiles use other missiles... Even with the massive lack of damage bonus you will be hitting them in a completely untanked hole

Its not their or CCP's fault that you are being predictable. (Note that with the proposed changes you could train to use a cyclone in 2-3 days and give them a nasty surprise with their kin hardeners?)


Well like i said previously shooting unbonused missiles has low dps. And my bad for being predictable but my concern is how easily they can overcome the whole damage bonus of the ship and dps with any other damage type missiles is just a joke, i mean it's good to have counters but isn't this way too limited? I mean other weapons cause atleast 2 different damage types that you need to tank for. Now if they fit 2 kinetic resists and adaptive one they have effectively countered my dps while using autocannons themselves able to shoot my weakest resists.

And yes, cyclone might do the trick but why isn't it limited to explosive damage bonus only then? Why the caldari hate? So i can't fly the ships i like and trained for effectively?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#1753 - 2013-01-27 18:43:26 UTC
I just found an oddity on the Brutix on SiSi.

But first I am happy to report that it is now possible to fit a full rack of 6 heavy ion blaster II's, 2 medium reps, an mwd and a medium cap booster without fitting implants - yeay!!

The odd thing is that the Brutix now has around 100 cpu left and maybe 5 powergrid.

I hope with the upcoming changes she can trade some of the cpu for some powergrid.

Playing a little with fittings and the rare case scenario when a battlecruiser fits a warfare link, I give you a summary on the ships I can fly and fit and even fit a warfare link instead of a neut.

Myrmidon:
You still have to ditch a gun, which still hurts my feelings. I rather have 4 bonused guns and 5 highs.

Brutix:
Now with 6 gun slots and 7 highs she has the slot for the link module but she lacks the powergrid to do so. Maybe she could trade some cpu for the powergrid?

Ferox:
With 7 gun slots and 8 highs she can fit a link module (yes or a neut) with ease, no fitting implants required

Drake:
From 7 down to six launcher hardpoints she has the slot to fit a link module but she needs a little more cpu and powerdgrid to do so.

Prophecy:
Fitting is no big deal for her, no matter what you want to do. The last high can be used for the dubious neut or a link module or a nos - I will leave that for everyone to decide on thier own.
She is a very tanky droneboat on the lower end of the damage department which you may see as tradeof for being longer on the field anyway.

My apologies for not being able to make any concusions about the Harbinger, since I lack the skills to fit medium laser turrets and it would seem unwise for me to make conclusions on things I know nothing about (yet).

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1754 - 2013-01-27 19:42:48 UTC
Why is it that you think BC's should be able provide gang support without axing something from their 'personal' fits?

When we get to tweaking the CC's then the idea of linking + full fit will have its day, but for T1 .. more grid/CPU will inevitably lead to even more excessive buffer/gank fits with links never entering peoples thoughts, and that is even with links coming on-grid Soon™, T1 will/should be backup link platforms to T2/T3 specialized ditto.
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#1755 - 2013-01-27 20:49:01 UTC
Could you at least sometimes think of PVEers?

Active shield-speed-dps tanked hurricane was so nice.. I've learned for a month with a bit to fully online it again, but now seems everything is damned and I have to... just sell my most loved ship?

Many other things seem to get worse as well.. Maybe except gallenteans and amarrs.

Hope to be heared,
Shade.
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
#1756 - 2013-01-27 20:53:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Alidiana
Or maybe there'll be a t2 version of each tier 2 BC, which will cost 300-400 mil isk and still be dedicated to pleasure of PVE as it can be on a BC?

Gosh, I'm willing to pay a billion just to get an operational Hurricane...


P. S. or maybe faction instead of t2.. I don't mind. Just something inacceptably expensive for pvp with no bonuses making it sweet for pvp (like Vindicator), but just giving it what pvers are dreaming it to have. 8th launcher for drake, for example.. I don't know what could I dream Hurri to have. It suited my tastes just perfectly.. Maybe one more med or extra shield. Harbinger and Myrm pilots might be dreaming of something to their ships as well..
I can accept you forcing me to switch to t3/BS for isk/hr, but why not leave BC for fun?
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1757 - 2013-01-27 20:54:55 UTC
Johnson Oramara wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
If you want to keep up the "Amarr have few midslots" thing you need to make up for it somehow. And seeing how amarr are supposedly the cap warfare race i'd think a slot for nos would be great
If a Maller has terrible tracking wouldn't it be a bad idea to be close enough to be in Nos range? I'm asking as a legit question cuz I have ZERO experience using lasers. I would of thought that a cap booster would be almost mandatory on a laserboat, leaving only 2 slots for prop and a point.


Maller is to slow to dictate range, thus at some point your target will be closed to you.
The Maller tracks other cruisers decently as long it has a web
If nos was buffed and the change i suggested done the Maller could fit a web instead of a cap booster. It would probably still not be very good because lasers are kinda lol at everything other than doing the scorch thing. But it wouldn't be the pile of **** it is today.


Johnson Oramara wrote:


So my corp has been under wardecs constantly and there's nothing we can do about it, not even fight back...

Me and all my corp mates are all caldari pilots and used to run L4's happily. We have decent skills for caldari ships and missiles only.

At beginning we had little success but now our enemies learned that we can only fly caldari ships and use missiles decently and very poor skills on gunnery they just slap 2 kinetic hardeners on their ships and since drakes has been the only option against them there is nothing we can really do against them now. Our other damage types dps are laughable and with their hardeners we barely tickle them with kinetic missiles too.

This proposed change to drake will make it even worse. Is it really intended that you can counter these ships so easily?


If you know they fit kinetic missiles use other missiles... Even with the massive lack of damage bonus you will be hitting them in a completely untanked hole

Its not their or CCP's fault that you are being predictable. (Note that with the proposed changes you could train to use a cyclone in 2-3 days and give them a nasty surprise with their kin hardeners?)


Well like i said previously shooting unbonused missiles has low dps. And my bad for being predictable but my concern is how easily they can overcome the whole damage bonus of the ship and dps with any other damage type missiles is just a joke, i mean it's good to have counters but isn't this way too limited? I mean other weapons cause atleast 2 different damage types that you need to tank for. Now if they fit 2 kinetic resists and adaptive one they have effectively countered my dps while using autocannons themselves able to shoot my weakest resists.

And yes, cyclone might do the trick but why isn't it limited to explosive damage bonus only then? Why the caldari hate? So i can't fly the ships i like and trained for effectively?



Dude, it doesn't matter what ship you fly... If you only fly one ship its really freaking easy to set something up to kill it.

If you only flew harbingers all you would need is a semi fast ship with one TD to kill you for example...

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1758 - 2013-01-27 21:15:34 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
...If you only flew harbingers all you would need is a semi fast ship with one TD to kill you for example...

Only because CCP refuse to introduce the missing M/L pulse lasers .. give me Gatlings!!!!

I want the situational hyper-tracking, low-dps option with no fall-off to speak of for all my boats. Big smile
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#1759 - 2013-01-27 21:34:26 UTC
Shade Alidiana wrote:
Or maybe there'll be a t2 version of each tier 2 BC, which will cost 300-400 mil isk and still be dedicated to pleasure of PVE as it can be on a BC?

Gosh, I'm willing to pay a billion just to get an operational Hurricane...


either switch to newcyclone, which should cater to your style much better then the cane, or train for a vargur which would be a one billion, fully operational, active shield tanked hurricane on steroids.
should not take more then 2 days to train HAMs to a good niveau.
miiriiah
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1760 - 2013-01-27 21:43:33 UTC  |  Edited by: miiriiah
Shade Alidiana wrote:
Could you at least sometimes think of PVEers?

Active shield-speed-dps tanked hurricane was so nice.. I've learned for a month with a bit to fully online it again, but now seems everything is damned and I have to... just sell my most loved ship?

Many other things seem to get worse as well.. Maybe except gallenteans and amarrs.

Hope to be heared,
Shade.


What exactly is being nerfed about your Hurricane for PVE? losing a high slot, WOW WHAT A WHOOPING HUGE NERF, stop whining and l2p, nothing is being nerfed about cane for PVE bar a tiny bit of velocity, loss of like... an unbonused launcher! WOW!

and like microscopic agility nerf and speed nerf. which should be unnoticable for pve.

If that's too big of a nerf for you then I suggest you just quit ASAP