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Removal of passive resist bonus on shield/armour hardeners

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Tolkenmoon
Hogan's Heroes
#1 - 2013-01-27 17:51:42 UTC
So i have just been on sis and noticed that active hardeners no longer have the passive resist element to them, Is this a good or bad thing? personaly i think it is a bad idea. What i want to know is why after all these years of being ok ccp feel the need to change so many things.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#2 - 2013-01-27 19:40:10 UTC
Tolkenmoon wrote:
So i have just been on sis and noticed that active hardeners no longer have the passive resist element to them, Is this a good or bad thing? personaly i think it is a bad idea. What i want to know is why after all these years of being ok ccp feel the need to change so many things.


...Wasn't the passive bonus on these hardeners on the order of 1%? I'm not seeing this mattering. Ever.
Illest Insurrectionist
Sparta.
#3 - 2013-01-27 19:57:22 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Tolkenmoon wrote:
So i have just been on sis and noticed that active hardeners no longer have the passive resist element to them, Is this a good or bad thing? personaly i think it is a bad idea. What i want to know is why after all these years of being ok ccp feel the need to change so many things.


...Wasn't the passive bonus on these hardeners on the order of 1%? I'm not seeing this mattering. Ever.


It is 15% at max skills. So a invuln when not on gives 15% to each. That is half effect with no cap. Far from usless imo.
Dultas
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2013-01-27 20:41:01 UTC
My sisi isn't up to date so I can confirm this but I would think the compensation skill would effect it with or without the base 1% so you would still get the 15% from the compensations skills.
Illest Insurrectionist
Sparta.
#5 - 2013-01-27 20:50:41 UTC
I'm on sisi right now and the bonus when off is definitely gone.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#6 - 2013-01-27 21:07:25 UTC
That was actually one of the cool effects that nobody knew about. Shame.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Illest Insurrectionist
Sparta.
#7 - 2013-01-27 21:12:19 UTC
It would be interesting to know if this makes the cap warfare folks even less likely to use shield fleet or what not.
Freyya
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-01-27 22:41:04 UTC
Well whooptiedoo, just a small bonus using active hards is missing. WHO wouldve guessed.
Capped out on your active tank? Dont count on that small but helpfull passive bonus to make you last just that little bit longer....
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#9 - 2013-01-28 00:55:06 UTC
Illest Insurrectionist wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Tolkenmoon wrote:
So i have just been on sis and noticed that active hardeners no longer have the passive resist element to them, Is this a good or bad thing? personaly i think it is a bad idea. What i want to know is why after all these years of being ok ccp feel the need to change so many things.


...Wasn't the passive bonus on these hardeners on the order of 1%? I'm not seeing this mattering. Ever.


It is 15% at max skills. So a invuln when not on gives 15% to each. That is half effect with no cap. Far from usless imo.


Wasn't aware of that.

Then yeah, this should probably be put back.
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#10 - 2013-01-28 10:20:18 UTC
passive bonus has been there for a good few years, no changes nessesary i belive.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#11 - 2013-01-28 11:31:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
If the reasoning is "armor doesn't have active omni so why is shield having a passive one?" I can understand it. Invul field is VERY good and one of the reasons why shield is more used than armor. So if their logic is "you wanted an active omni? sure but you'll lose its passive bonus" then yeah, makes sense.

But per usual it's probably just a sisi bug.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#12 - 2013-01-28 13:23:23 UTC
tl;dr yes, this has been removed, because we felt that for a number of reasons it wasn't a function we wanted on active hardeners


This bonus came to the top of our work due to a defect, which prompted us to discuss whether we even wanted this feature in the first place. After fairly extensive discussion, we decided we would prefer to just remove it outright, for the following reasons:


  • We're not, in general and with exceptions, fans of multi-function modules. EVE fitting is about trade-offs, not about having your cake and eating it. In this particular case, it was making the decision to take an active hardener over a passive one easier than it otherwise would be, which isn't a particularly good thing.
  • The UX of this feature as implemented is pretty bad - there's two sets of resist attributes on the hardeners with very little explanation, the skill descriptions need to be unusually complicated to explain exactly what's going on, and it's not at all obvious from the modules that this feature even exists (see Liang's comment above).
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-01-28 13:49:05 UTC
so will there be any passive omni shield resis mods being introduced?

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#14 - 2013-01-28 14:06:49 UTC
Not a huge fan of this.

* Proper skills + 2x Adaptive Invulns at least gave a little bit of a resistance buffer when neuted out, somewhere on par with the lowest resistances on armour tanked ships. Vs armour which are almost always passive and have greater EHP to boot.

* It does make the Shield Compensation skills pretty much useless outside a small handful of roles.

* There is no shield equivalent to the EANM. Even if there was, at a lower resistance %, they would likely still fail pretty bad EHP wise compared to the armour fits.
Markku Laaksonen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-01-28 14:40:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Markku Laaksonen
[Type] Shield Compensation

To active shield hardeners: 3% bonus per skill level to Shield [Type] resistance when the modules are not active
To passive shield hardeners: 5% bonus per skill level to Shield [Type] resistance

Contrary to Liang's statement, I thought it was an obvious trait of active hardeners. The reason I thought that is because I can (and do) read.

I assume the first half of this skill will be removed. The first half of the skill is the entire reason I trained it. Removing the inactive resistances of active hardeners removes the entire reason I trained the skills. Therefore, will there be a full SP reimbursement? If players still want to use these skills for the passive bonus, they can put the reimbursed SP right back into the modified skills.

Also, this skill will now give less of a bonus than it had previously. Will this skill set's training time multiplier be reduced? Failing a full SP reimbursement, will there be a partial SP reimbursement if the training time multiplier is reduced?

I understand that CCP generally doesn't reimburse SP when making changes like this. I'm also aware that as a newer player, my character skills will never catch up to those of veterans because of the skill training system. To compete, I have to specialize. To specialize, I have to control where my SP goes. At the time, this was a useful skill to train. When the change takes place it will not be useful, and how ever much time spent specializing my skill set will be wasted.

Edit: Reading through the posts, two options stick out. They revolve around maintaining the skill set's usefulness.

The best option is to change the bonus to active hardeners to give some bonus while they are active. Something like

"To active shield hardeners: x% bonus per skill level to Shield [Type] resistance"

Another good option is to expand the bonus to passive mods to include rigs, such as

"To passive shield hardeners modules and rigs: x% bonus per skill level to Shield [Type] resistance"

Either way, if usefulness of the skills is diminished, training time should be diminished to reflect that, and at least a partial SP reimbursement would be reasonable.

Adding a mod seems like it would introduce all kinds of balancing issues.

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Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#16 - 2013-01-28 14:41:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Vilnius Zar
Sentient Blade wrote:
Not a huge fan of this.

* Proper skills + 2x Adaptive Invulns at least gave a little bit of a resistance buffer when neuted out, somewhere on par with the lowest resistances on armour tanked ships. Vs armour which are almost always passive and have greater EHP to boot.

* It does make the Shield Compensation skills pretty much useless outside a small handful of roles.

* There is no shield equivalent to the EANM. Even if there was, at a lower resistance %, they would likely still fail pretty bad EHP wise compared to the armour fits.


I have a good idea, we'll swap. You get passive only omni for shield and armor gets an active omni instead. Yes? No?

If your answer is no then your whole post is silly nonsense, what you're whining about is having your cake and eat it. Same goes for the above poster.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#17 - 2013-01-28 15:03:21 UTC
This is a huge buff to energy neutralizing and a huge nerf to active shield tanking.
I hope lots of thoughts have been put into this...
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#18 - 2013-01-28 15:09:21 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
This is a huge buff to energy neutralizing and a huge nerf to active shield tanking.
I hope lots of thoughts have been put into this...

If only you had some insanely OP shield boosting module that didn't run on cap. Hmmm

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#19 - 2013-01-28 15:10:20 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Pinky Denmark wrote:
This is a huge buff to energy neutralizing and a huge nerf to active shield tanking.
I hope lots of thoughts have been put into this...

If only you had some insanely OP shield boosting module that didn't run on cap. Hmmm


Doesn't count for much when you end up with a 0% resistance hole.
Eternal Error
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-01-28 15:11:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternal Error
CCP Greyscale wrote:
tl;dr yes, this has been removed, because we felt that for a number of reasons it wasn't a function we wanted on active hardeners


This bonus came to the top of our work due to a defect, which prompted us to discuss whether we even wanted this feature in the first place. After fairly extensive discussion, we decided we would prefer to just remove it outright, for the following reasons:


  • We're not, in general and with exceptions, fans of multi-function modules. EVE fitting is about trade-offs, not about having your cake and eating it. In this particular case, it was making the decision to take an active hardener over a passive one easier than it otherwise would be, which isn't a particularly good thing.
  • The UX of this feature as implemented is pretty bad - there's two sets of resist attributes on the hardeners with very little explanation, the skill descriptions need to be unusually complicated to explain exactly what's going on, and it's not at all obvious from the modules that this feature even exists (see Liang's comment above).

WHEN YOU MAKE CHANGES LIKE THIS, ANNOUNCE THEM. This is far too important to be a stealth nerf.

Also, this change sucks. This basically makes the shield compensation skills even less worthwhile. Maybe remove the passive effects from the invulns, but leave it on the specific hardeners? Or just reduce the passive resist boost amount? It's a useful, albeit uncommonly used trait to have on the hardeners that adds a bit of flavor based on your compensation skills. I honestly see no reason why you'd change it.
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