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Removal of passive resist bonus on shield/armour hardeners

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Dark Reignz
Four-Q
#341 - 2013-02-27 01:02:47 UTC
Anachronic wrote:
Dark Reignz wrote:
I've been back 3 weeks after a very long break from eve (partly because of continued nerfing to Caldari (Shield/Long range missile boats)

Come back to even more facking nerfs. Everything trained since creating my Caldari 100km+ Missile shield tanking char in 2006 is becoming more and more irrelevant.

Missiles & shield boats were always second to Armour tanking with turrets and being the sort of person to go with the underdog I went the way of Missiles & Shield boats.

Since 2006 my heavy launchers for example, the range has dropped from 90km to 64km, damage has been nerfed, the Drake nerfed and looses a launcher slot amongst the other nerfs and to top it off, my shield skills which I spent "TIME" on, increased passive resists on harderners now also become nerfed into oblivion.

Must admit, coming back after the break, getting into null sec to do a spot of ratting and struggling to kill one lone Guristas Battleship with 700k bounty in a Tengu fitted with T2 gear was absolutely depressing to say the least. (never mind the perma-ecm)

Go ahead CCP, you may aswell remove everything that makes out races different. Wipe all chars, give us bog standard shield and armour ships & modules which are the same no matter what your race is. Make turrets and missile equipment exactly the same stat wise but with different graphics and save us all the god damn time and money waisted training in such a specific way. Doing it merely to neutralise blobdonut fleets.

When you make such changes as removing a stat which some of us specifically trained for then some kind of reimbursement should be granted.

STOP FCKING NERFING UNIQUENESS! I was proud to be Caldari years ago and now I have to question... who am I now ?



QQ, can I have your stuff, and HTFU...yup, I pretty much think that covers it...


Typical generic response from an average yet primitive eve persona. Why don't you think of something constructive and interesting to respond with rather than generic garbage or can your 1 brain cell not handle it ?

If you want my stuff, I'll give you my RL address, then you can come and say that to my face big boy.

Troll Mode - ON
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#342 - 2013-02-27 08:00:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
The reply by the developer here was flippant to say the least, which certainly got my back up, and still does, the passive resistences had value and this is a buff to neuting, as if it needed that by the way.

I was trying to work out the benefit in terms of coding for this decision, the server still has to check if the module is off and recalculate the resistences with those that are still running, the issue is I guess that a further call has to be made to the server to get the training level. If CCP Greyscale could at least tell me straight out that there is a benefit in reducing lag in large fleet combats then I will shut up and let it go, even though its something that I valued a lot in small gang combat where neuting ships are a right pain in the butt.

The only thing I ask is that CCP introduce a passive all round shield resistence module like the EANM, at that point I can live with it.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Ark Destroyer
BLOMI
#343 - 2013-02-28 19:56:32 UTC
Does anyone have a link to where they said the SP will simply vanish into nothingness? Or do you keep the skills and just remove the "active" part of it? I have level 5 shield and armor trained on 2 characters.... I should hope the complete skill isn't removed, that's ALLOT of Sp...

Neutral Talent CEO Specializing in "complete" super-capital packages

Complete supercapital packages
Allus Nova
#344 - 2013-02-28 20:21:33 UTC
Maggeridon Thoraz wrote:
somehow i get the feeling ccp is changing so many fundamental things at all that they should give all players a totall reset of the skillpoints and let the users decide where to redistribute them :-)



If only =)
Allus Nova
#345 - 2013-02-28 20:23:08 UTC
Dark Reignz wrote:
Anachronic wrote:
Dark Reignz wrote:
I've been back 3 weeks after a very long break from eve (partly because of continued nerfing to Caldari (Shield/Long range missile boats)

Come back to even more facking nerfs. Everything trained since creating my Caldari 100km+ Missile shield tanking char in 2006 is becoming more and more irrelevant.

Missiles & shield boats were always second to Armour tanking with turrets and being the sort of person to go with the underdog I went the way of Missiles & Shield boats.

Since 2006 my heavy launchers for example, the range has dropped from 90km to 64km, damage has been nerfed, the Drake nerfed and looses a launcher slot amongst the other nerfs and to top it off, my shield skills which I spent "TIME" on, increased passive resists on harderners now also become nerfed into oblivion.

Must admit, coming back after the break, getting into null sec to do a spot of ratting and struggling to kill one lone Guristas Battleship with 700k bounty in a Tengu fitted with T2 gear was absolutely depressing to say the least. (never mind the perma-ecm)

Go ahead CCP, you may aswell remove everything that makes out races different. Wipe all chars, give us bog standard shield and armour ships & modules which are the same no matter what your race is. Make turrets and missile equipment exactly the same stat wise but with different graphics and save us all the god damn time and money waisted training in such a specific way. Doing it merely to neutralise blobdonut fleets.

When you make such changes as removing a stat which some of us specifically trained for then some kind of reimbursement should be granted.

STOP FCKING NERFING UNIQUENESS! I was proud to be Caldari years ago and now I have to question... who am I now ?



QQ, can I have your stuff, and HTFU...yup, I pretty much think that covers it...


Typical generic response from an average yet primitive eve persona. Why don't you think of something constructive and interesting to respond with rather than generic garbage or can your 1 brain cell not handle it ?

If you want my stuff, I'll give you my RL address, then you can come and say that to my face big boy.



Where do you live? If you're close to Boston, I'll swing by and bring a case of beer, then I'll take your unused stuff.
Anachronic
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#346 - 2013-02-28 22:33:45 UTC
Ark Destroyer wrote:
Does anyone have a link to where they said the SP will simply vanish into nothingness? Or do you keep the skills and just remove the "active" part of it? I have level 5 shield and armor trained on 2 characters.... I should hope the complete skill isn't removed, that's ALLOT of Sp...



SP have never just "vanished" into thin air. When a skill is removed they reimburse the correct amount as unallocated. However in this case the skill still has a use so fat chance of these skills getting reimbursed...also they don't need reimbursement
Anachronic
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#347 - 2013-02-28 22:34:57 UTC
Allus Nova wrote:
Dark Reignz wrote:
Anachronic wrote:
Dark Reignz wrote:
I've been back 3 weeks after a very long break from eve (partly because of continued nerfing to Caldari (Shield/Long range missile boats)

Come back to even more facking nerfs. Everything trained since creating my Caldari 100km+ Missile shield tanking char in 2006 is becoming more and more irrelevant.

Missiles & shield boats were always second to Armour tanking with turrets and being the sort of person to go with the underdog I went the way of Missiles & Shield boats.

Since 2006 my heavy launchers for example, the range has dropped from 90km to 64km, damage has been nerfed, the Drake nerfed and looses a launcher slot amongst the other nerfs and to top it off, my shield skills which I spent "TIME" on, increased passive resists on harderners now also become nerfed into oblivion.

Must admit, coming back after the break, getting into null sec to do a spot of ratting and struggling to kill one lone Guristas Battleship with 700k bounty in a Tengu fitted with T2 gear was absolutely depressing to say the least. (never mind the perma-ecm)

Go ahead CCP, you may aswell remove everything that makes out races different. Wipe all chars, give us bog standard shield and armour ships & modules which are the same no matter what your race is. Make turrets and missile equipment exactly the same stat wise but with different graphics and save us all the god damn time and money waisted training in such a specific way. Doing it merely to neutralise blobdonut fleets.

When you make such changes as removing a stat which some of us specifically trained for then some kind of reimbursement should be granted.

STOP FCKING NERFING UNIQUENESS! I was proud to be Caldari years ago and now I have to question... who am I now ?



QQ, can I have your stuff, and HTFU...yup, I pretty much think that covers it...


Typical generic response from an average yet primitive eve persona. Why don't you think of something constructive and interesting to respond with rather than generic garbage or can your 1 brain cell not handle it ?

If you want my stuff, I'll give you my RL address, then you can come and say that to my face big boy.



Where do you live? If you're close to Boston, I'll swing by and bring a case of beer, then I'll take your unused stuff.



Hell if it's within a day's car drive of me I'd do it...
Karl Mattar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#348 - 2013-03-01 17:36:22 UTC
Well, if you are really concerned about being able to use a passive shield resistance skill bonus, there are always Officer-quality mods that hold up remarkably well when compared to actives.

Just going to cost you a bit.

Ultimately, I think this change is minor. If I have to rely on the passive resistance quality of my shields in pvp, I certainly have bigger issues to be worried about than if I'm getting x% or y%...
Kodama Ikari
Thragon
#349 - 2013-03-01 21:02:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Kodama Ikari
For the record, this was mostly a problem with the invuln getting full bonuses from each skill. they could have left the skills on type-specific armor and shield hardeners. That said, i don't care, this is a minor change.

Dark Reignz wrote:


Typical generic response from an average yet primitive eve persona. Why don't you think of something constructive and interesting to respond with rather than generic garbage or can your 1 brain cell not handle it ?


Your entire post was a whine about things changing. Including things that changed that you're upset about that most people agree was a good change. You're even whining about changes to caldari that were even buffs. Missiles are stronger in pvp than they've been in a long time, and if you can't kill rats in a t2 fit tengu, then take it from me, the missiles are not the problem.

Dracvlad wrote:


The reply by the developer here was flippant to say the least, which certainly got my back up, and still does, the passive resistences had value and this is a buff to neuting, as if it needed that by the way.


Not thinking the issue is as significant as you think it is does not mean he was flippant.

Quote:
I was trying to work out the benefit in terms of coding for this decision.. If CCP Greyscale could at least tell me straight out that there is a benefit in reducing lag in large fleet combats then I will shut up and let it go


To my knowledge, they never stated this was anything beyond a game design decision, which is sufficient reason to change something.

Quote:
The only thing I ask is that CCP introduce a passive all round shield resistence module like the EANM, at that point I can live with it.


LOL. What a reasonable and completely original request. I'm sure CCP have never heard this asked for before.

Some first-hand PI tips
PAPULA
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#350 - 2013-03-02 08:24:51 UTC  |  Edited by: PAPULA
CCP Greyscale wrote:
tl;dr yes, this has been removed, because we felt that for a number of reasons it wasn't a function we wanted on active hardeners


This bonus came to the top of our work due to a defect, which prompted us to discuss whether we even wanted this feature in the first place. After fairly extensive discussion, we decided we would prefer to just remove it outright, for the following reasons:


  • We're not, in general and with exceptions, fans of multi-function modules. EVE fitting is about trade-offs, not about having your cake and eating it. In this particular case, it was making the decision to take an active hardener over a passive one easier than it otherwise would be, which isn't a particularly good thing.
  • The UX of this feature as implemented is pretty bad - there's two sets of resist attributes on the hardeners with very little explanation, the skill descriptions need to be unusually complicated to explain exactly what's going on, and it's not at all obvious from the modules that this feature even exists (see Liang's comment above).

Yes ccp keep nerfing items, people will leave and you'll get less and less people in game.
Removing passive resists is very stupid move another skill just became obsolete.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#351 - 2013-03-02 11:44:46 UTC
PAPULA wrote:
Yes ccp keep nerfing items, people will leave and you'll get less and less people in game.
Removing passive resists is very stupid move another skill just became obsolete.

OR the game will be better, and more people will enjoy it (even despiter the left of whiners whom Santa Claus never disapointed) and they will, infact, EARN customers !
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#352 - 2013-03-02 11:54:06 UTC
PAPULA wrote:
[quote=CCP Greyscale]Yes ccp keep nerfing items, people will leave and you'll get less and less people in game.
Removing passive resists is very stupid move another skill just became obsolete.



if the number of true passive tank players left eve...they would not be laying off devs. I rarely see true passive drakes for example. being a purist a true passive drake would be passive resists. You don't get this in pvp. Its at least invul II which technically violates true passive fit. Pve drake fits, I rarely see this. For good reason. I happen to run passive resists on my tengu. Gist B's (especially em, tie the priciest of the lot) is not worth it the cost for a drake imo. Depending on market the 1 em resist alone can buy 2-3 drakes ffs.


For the armour peeps, it is worth noting many went hmm....we could do that? they did not even know about the recent loophole until ccp sealed it up. Those who have lost it...they did not not lsoe much. Once cap is dead to actively use the mod not having power, ships is dead generally. The boosted non-active bonus of invul II never saved a caldari ship...because that means its usually paired em II hard is now dead and that EM hole jsut got gaped real bad. Armour would be the same.


And also worth noting for shield and armour the training of resist comp skills has always been a good debate as to whether to train them in the first place. If you ask certain people, these were already worhtless skills to train for years. they only pay off when you ds or higher resist fittings. Going back to my tengu, with my gist b fittings I only equal or slighlty edge out a plain ole t2 active hard resist fitting wise.

My most expensive fit is em/therm....I pay current market price around 200 mil to get about the same resists as a 4 mil 2 active hard fit. Its value to me in the past was tis help me get cap stable. And there in lies the value of passive resists. they have always sucked unless uber blinged (A types and officer are nice...and cost 4 arms and 4 legs) but if you wanted better cap performance they got you that.

Don't need cap stable or close...I would not fault anyone for avoiding them. I'd encourage it.

Beyond this the most common reason to train passive resists was caps. Because you would bling them a bit resist wise and well at around 2 bil to lose 20 days to master em and thermal passive resists it might be worth it. Do what you can to get the 2 bil ship home kind of thing. master the passive skills to keep your rifter alive....not even worth it.

Skorpynekomimi
#353 - 2013-03-02 12:03:58 UTC
Looks to me like the shield comp skills are now actually useful to train. Flat bonuses!

Economic PVP
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#354 - 2013-03-02 12:07:17 UTC
So some shield tankers claim this has made armor better deslite rhis affecting armor too? Why would you even depend on something which clearly makes another mod useless without draining cap and expect that not to be fixed?

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#355 - 2013-03-02 15:12:23 UTC
Kodama Ikari wrote:
For the record, this was mostly a problem with the invuln getting full bonuses from each skill. they could have left the skills on type-specific armor and shield hardeners. That said, i don't care, this is a minor change.


You may not care but others do, you may find it minor, but I have been in a number of combats 1v1 or in small gangs where having the skill trained up to 5 and having the passive resistence saved my butt. Now neuting ships become even more over powered.

Kodama Ikari wrote:
Not thinking the issue is as significant as you think it is does not mean he was flippant..


Again I disagree, because as I said I have benefitted from this skill and passive resistence, you obviously have not, but it seemed like a snap decision to make programming the code easier. As I code SQL myself I know the difference that this call would make in a high lag situation, and as I said if it was done to make lag less then I would accept it, but do not think it was right because he decided that it was too difficult to code.

Kodama Ikari wrote:
To my knowledge, they never stated this was anything beyond a game design decision, which is sufficient reason to change something..


Like a game design putting it in in the first place, because neuting was over powered, its fun having friends who have been in the game a long time and remember the passive resistence being added.

Kodama Ikari wrote:
LOL. What a reasonable and completely original request. I'm sure CCP have never heard this asked for before.


Its in this thread, its needed because at this point we have an issue in terms of fitting shield tanks, a neuting ship now is more overpowered against shield ships than armour ships because they have a passive general resistence module. So I repeat my point, CCP need to introduce one for shield, it does not matter if its a original request or not, before they removed the passive bonus I was OK with not having one, now without the passive bonus its needed.

I am going to watch your KB for any loss with you in a shield ship against neuting ships and send you an amused mail, but found that you had no ready available record on Eve Kill or Battleclinic, so can only assume that you don't PvP much, hence your ignorance on the value.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Bloody Wench
#356 - 2013-03-23 10:27:13 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Bloody Wench wrote:
Adding my voice to the change it back chorus.

I have 3 characters with shield resist comps to 5 especially for the Invul while neuted crap.

Change it back.

When you alter how a skill interacts I believe it's customary to refund those skill points. Change it back or refund those points.

32-33 days training per character is no fuckin joke Greyscale.


The change is bad for newer pilots that are shield tankers since the removal of passive resists combined with recent armor tank buffs makes shield look much less appealing. I can do both so it's only slightly annoying to me.

I would like to see CCP refund SP for skills that no longer have the same purpose when they were trained but good luck with that. How do you think Iteron Mark V pilots are going to feel when the skill goes from a month to 30 minutes.... No lube used by CCP on that one!





I know i'll be switching over to itty Mk5's the second it goes live, despite currently using mammoths at lvl 4 for my lowbie alts.

[u]**Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: **[/u]  CCP should not only make local delayed in highsec, but they should also require one be undocked to use it. Then, even the local spammers have some skin in the game. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack