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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Perihelion Olenard
#1701 - 2013-01-25 18:31:31 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
Racial bonuses are called Racial bonuses for a reason :)

And some are more equal in more situations than others. Roll

Not that I'm envious of other race's bonuses (not that I ain't), but if I - and many othes - feel like mine is not good, why do both my combat ships have it...

Because they are diverse enough?
Well, I can fly the Prophecy at skill V just as much as the Myrm, and be less dependant on the limited (now mildly buffed) drone bay.
Both use ACs anyways, so no change there as well, no need to cross-train Roll

Did anyone plan to say anything about racial weapons? Roll

You're making it sound like autocannons are the only weapons that go there. There's nothing stopping you from using blasters on the myrmidon or lasers on the prophecy. Just because it doesn't have a damage bonus to it doesn't mean it must have autocannons fit. I plan to use blasters on the prophecy and myrmidon.
Ragnar D IX
Ayn Rand Corporation
#1702 - 2013-01-25 18:33:14 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
Ragnar D IX wrote:


I dont consider "Blobs" of Drakes as an argument.... why does it take a 'blob' for it to be effective? Put enough of anything in a blob and you'll see results. In a 1v1 fight, generally, the Drake is at a disadvantage in both speed and dps . Now, one could point to the HAM Drake and offer an arguement, but you have to GET to the target in the first place.

i think you meant to say Amarr ewar... the Amarr ships get the TD bonuses. With regard to that, given that Caldari ships are pretty much bonused missile boats, it would make more sense to give it a TD bonus. Where ECM is problematic in that you have to use up mids to be race specific (and they do laughable damage, btw), TD would be effective vs gunships in general.


The Drake is at an advantage in both tank and range, and a MWD will easily get a Drake in range for HAM's unless its facing a proper kitey fit, in which case, all sorts of ships are at a disadvantage, and the kiter is prone to damage or death if caught.

You can't have 100,000 EHP + Awesome DPS + Awesome Speed + Awesome Range, its just not how EVE works and when it does, it gets Nerfed - Aka. Nano Drake.

And I confused TD for TP - a Target Painter would actually be useful on a Drake in all situations, where as a TD is very situational. But each of those is tied to another race, whether it be Amarr or Minmitar. To start giving different races, racial bonuses is nuts, which is why I'm against the Brutix getting a 5% Armor bonus? Because then where does it end? The Megathron would be next. Then why not the capital ships? Or... the titans?

Racial bonuses are called Racial bonuses for a reason :)



I hear ya matey. I dont think the TD is that situational, however, as 3/4 races are centered on gunships... tho.. not sure you can affect the range of a BS enough to be worthwile. Dont get me wrong, I love the Drake and plan to fly it for pvp... I just dont like the bias to gunships for pvp, and since Caldari are pretty much only missile race... seems to make sense to bonus them with the TD. I have gone 1v1 with a Cane a couple times and won in a Drake... so, maybe i'm just full of it.
Ragnar D IX
Ayn Rand Corporation
#1703 - 2013-01-25 18:38:44 UTC

I see the fact that that empty highslot was meant for the Warfare Link in the Drake occured to someone.

Unfortunately, the Drake will now lose a launcher, handicapping its DPS in a significant way. Ugh
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#1704 - 2013-01-25 18:40:26 UTC
Ragnar D IX wrote:

I see the fact that that empty highslot was meant for the Warfare Link in the Drake occured to someone.

Unfortunately, the Drake will now lose a launcher, handicapping its DPS in a significant way. Ugh


Its getting 5% more DPS per level than before to make up for it. Technically a DPS increase...

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#1705 - 2013-01-25 18:42:37 UTC
And no Caldari are literally 50/50 between missiles and gunnery... Merlin/Kestrel, Moa/Caracal, Ferox/Drake Rokh/Moa and the Scorpion comes in as a e-war boat. They are not a missile race by any stretch, its just half of what they do. I would argue they are one of the best gunnery races since Hybrids were buffed.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#1706 - 2013-01-25 18:43:42 UTC
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
Racial bonuses are called Racial bonuses for a reason :)

And some are more equal in more situations than others. Roll

Not that I'm envious of other race's bonuses (not that I ain't), but if I - and many othes - feel like mine is not good, why do both my combat ships have it...

Because they are diverse enough?
Well, I can fly the Prophecy at skill V just as much as the Myrm, and be less dependant on the limited (now mildly buffed) drone bay.
Both use ACs anyways, so no change there as well, no need to cross-train Roll

Did anyone plan to say anything about racial weapons? Roll

You're making it sound like autocannons are the only weapons that go there. There's nothing stopping you from using blasters on the myrmidon or lasers on the prophecy. Just because it doesn't have a damage bonus to it doesn't mean it must have autocannons fit. I plan to use blasters on the prophecy and myrmidon.

AC don't eat up cap, have lower fitting requirements, and have middling tracking. It amplifies your damage almost for free. And they have decent range.

Of course, you're right. You can use other things. AC's are just a no-brainer when you want something you can slap up in your highs, activate, and then forget, all while having no negative impact on your cap life. Also, you have selecatble damage types for when you actually ARE paying attention to your guns.
Ragnar D IX
Ayn Rand Corporation
#1707 - 2013-01-25 18:55:11 UTC

When are the changes happening? I just looked at my Drake hull and got a boost on my resists, without any modules? Not sure if that is from the skills i just finished or if it is the BC change???
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#1708 - 2013-01-25 19:03:04 UTC
Ragnar D IX wrote:

I see the fact that that empty highslot was meant for the Warfare Link in the Drake occured to someone.

Unfortunately, the Drake will now lose a launcher, handicapping its DPS in a significant way. Ugh


It's funny, because with the exact same Drake fit from before but lacking one launcher I get about twenty more DPS than before thanks to the 10% damage bonus rather than 5%.

No real issues with the Drake at this point. With HAMs it's a respectable close-medium range ship, albeit a slow one. This was hardly a nerf compared to when HMLs were made buddies with medium railguns in the 'worst weapons in the game' club. And even then that was a completely different kind of nerf, not a tweaking like what is being done with the Drake now.
Perihelion Olenard
#1709 - 2013-01-25 19:03:09 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

AC don't eat up cap, have lower fitting requirements, and have middling tracking. It amplifies your damage almost for free. And they have decent range.

Of course, you're right. You can use other things. AC's are just a no-brainer when you want something you can slap up in your highs, activate, and then forget, all while having no negative impact on your cap life. Also, you have selecatble damage types for when you actually ARE paying attention to your guns.

If ACs work for you I have no problem with that. Different weapons have their own advantages and disadvantages.
Qaidan Alenko
Eezo-Lution Inc.
#1710 - 2013-01-25 20:13:28 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
Ragnar D IX wrote:

I see the fact that that empty highslot was meant for the Warfare Link in the Drake occured to someone.

Unfortunately, the Drake will now lose a launcher, handicapping its DPS in a significant way. Ugh


Its getting 5% more DPS per level than before to make up for it. Technically a DPS increase...

The new drake will lag behind the old one, until lvl IV where they will break even.... at V will the new drake get a nominal increase (just under 3%) over the old hull.
Go ahead... Get your Wham on!!!
PavlikX
Scan Stakan
HOLD MY PROBS
#1711 - 2013-01-25 21:05:19 UTC
Well, why only 4 gun or launcher slots for Prophecy? Let it be 5 (both types) with 5 high slots entirely.
Mund Richard
#1712 - 2013-01-25 22:09:19 UTC
PavlikX wrote:
Well, why only 4 gun or launcher slots for Prophecy? Let it be 5 (both types) with 5 high slots entirely.

Well, compared to the Myrm, having the option of fitting 4 HAMs ain't bad at all.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Naomi Anthar
#1713 - 2013-01-25 22:27:55 UTC
Dear Fozzie. You listen to players. Then hear me ! I'm new player, but i think i can say few things already about this or that.

I will repeat something i said before. Make Prophecy bandwitch 80. You had no problem adding 25 bay to myrmidon, then you will not have problem adding 5 bandwitch to Prophecy. Atm 75 bandwitch ain't better than 50 to be honest. And 80 is obviously a upgrade over Arbitrator(2 heavy and 3 medium). Or care to explain me what you are sending from your droneboat with 75 bandwitch.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#1714 - 2013-01-25 22:35:20 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Atm 75 bandwitch ain't better than 50 to be honest. And 80 is obviously a upgrade over Arbitrator(2 heavy and 3 medium). Or care to explain me what you are sending from your droneboat with 75 bandwitch.


2 heavies, 2 mediums, 1 light drone. It's been used on 75 bandwidth ships extensively in the past.
Naomi Anthar
#1715 - 2013-01-25 22:45:02 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Atm 75 bandwitch ain't better than 50 to be honest. And 80 is obviously a upgrade over Arbitrator(2 heavy and 3 medium). Or care to explain me what you are sending from your droneboat with 75 bandwitch.


2 heavies, 2 mediums, 1 light drone. It's been used on 75 bandwidth ships extensively in the past.


And this combination failed since always. I can explain how. So light and medium and heavy ? 3 diffrent types of tracking. Sure send this vs dunno cruiser and heavies will miss. Send this vs frigate and maybe light will hit. And even if all hit. Let's see how much damage upgrade is that over 5 mediums(75 bandwitch) : 5 x 24 damage = 120. 2 heavy + 2 medium +1 light =96+48+15=159. Sure it's upgrade over arbitrator but it's at tremendous cost of having 3 diffrent tracking , 3 diffrent signature drones, 3 diffrent SPEED drones. Maybe you like gimmick combos like this. I'm not asking for much really. Just 5 bandwitch.

I don't get myrmidon this , myrmidon that. Brutix this, Brutix that. "fozzie be gallente hero" etc. Hello ? So prophecy was worst BC ever and it does deserve more love than myrmidon and brutix combined. Hell yeah it deserves to be very best now once.

Talking about crap bonuses on your ships ? Well what about : 10% less cap usage of hybrid weapons per level ? Yeah ...
Mund Richard
#1716 - 2013-01-25 22:48:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Atm 75 bandwitch ain't better than 50 to be honest. And 80 is obviously a upgrade over Arbitrator(2 heavy and 3 medium). Or care to explain me what you are sending from your droneboat with 75 bandwitch.

2 heavies, 2 mediums, 1 light drone. It's been used on 75 bandwidth ships extensively in the past.

Which does not make it good.
Ogres are slower than almost any MWDing ships you are after (heck, including the Myrm itself - not to mention the new faster and lighter Prophecy) unless the target is scrammed, and the Ogre's guns have BS-sized resolution and tracking...

I still wish cruiser-sized drone boats that regularly field Ogres had less dronebay/bandwidth and a stronger drone damage bonus instead.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1717 - 2013-01-25 22:54:47 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Atm 75 bandwitch ain't better than 50 to be honest. And 80 is obviously a upgrade over Arbitrator(2 heavy and 3 medium). Or care to explain me what you are sending from your droneboat with 75 bandwitch.


2 heavies, 2 mediums, 1 light drone. It's been used on 75 bandwidth ships extensively in the past.

Yep. I always fit two large guns, two medium, and one small on my gunboat battleships. It's freakin awesome.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Edward Pierce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1718 - 2013-01-25 23:10:01 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Atm 75 bandwitch ain't better than 50 to be honest. And 80 is obviously a upgrade over Arbitrator(2 heavy and 3 medium). Or care to explain me what you are sending from your droneboat with 75 bandwitch.

2 heavies, 2 mediums, 1 light drone. It's been used on 75 bandwidth ships extensively in the past.

Which does not make it good.
Ogres are slower than almost any MWDing ships you are after (heck, including the Myrm itself - not to mention the new faster and lighter Prophecy) unless the target is scrammed, and the Ogre's guns have BS-sized resolution and tracking...

I still wish cruiser-sized drone boats that regularly field Ogres had less dronebay/bandwidth and a stronger drone damage bonus instead.

Ogres are too slow, and I would hope more drone boats get bonuses similar to the new destroyers where they get extra drone speed bonus.

However, on the tracking and sig resolution, I believe that Ogres are closer to cruiser sized guns than BS sized guns:
Ogre ii Sig 125 Tracking 0.36
Cruiser Neutron Blaster Sig 125 Tracking 0.1
BS Neutron Blaster Sig 400 Tracking 0.0433

So Ogre iis can track and shoot cruisers pretty well, might need it to get it tackled to actually hit it, but that applies to your ship's guns most of the times as well.

Also lets not forget the 3x sentry option.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#1719 - 2013-01-25 23:14:37 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
And this combination failed since always. I can explain how....

It is called target selection, with the max dps drone setup you obviously stay well clear of small/fast targets .. for general hunting using Valks is superior especially if one has neuts/webs available.
Took on an "easy prey" Vexor in my Maller once .. he was full gank fit (including the odd drone mix) and shredded my boat so insanely fast it wasn't even funny .. so it is a matter of what one does with it that can be fail and not the 2.2.1 setup.
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Talking about crap bonuses on your ships ? Well what about : 10% less cap usage of hybrid weapons per level ? Yeah ...

Actually been thinking about that most hated bonus, being Amarr only and all. We have some active rep options coming our way and since Amarr has always been the cap race .. why not change the consumption bonus for a recharge bonus? Lets Amarr be the race that uses batteries (will need a slight boost too) while Gallente use injectors.
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#1720 - 2013-01-25 23:33:33 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Dear Fozzie. You listen to players. Then hear me ! I'm new player, but i think i can say few things already about this or that.

I will repeat something i said before. Make Prophecy bandwitch 80. You had no problem adding 25 bay to myrmidon, then you will not have problem adding 5 bandwitch to Prophecy. Atm 75 bandwitch ain't better than 50 to be honest. And 80 is obviously a upgrade over Arbitrator(2 heavy and 3 medium). Or care to explain me what you are sending from your droneboat with 75 bandwitch.


Ok - since you are a new player you should know that about 90% of the posters here don't give a rat's ass about practical aspects such as tracking, range and damage projection.
We don't fly those ships anyway, hell, most of don't even undock anymore.
All we want is that Fozzie provides us some nifty EFT numbers.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.