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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1601 - 2013-01-24 15:57:57 UTC
Ribikoka wrote:

without implant and 1124dps in your dream.
And that 65 more damage is 23 dps but 100+ dps for harbinger.


[Myrmidon, Ribikoka's Dream]

Internal Force Field Array I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I


Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x2
Hobgoblin II x1


Practical everyday fit? No, but these kinds of edge case fits are something to be aware of when considering damage output potential of ships.


.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1602 - 2013-01-24 15:58:59 UTC
Ribikoka wrote:
10%/lvl for harbinger -1gun its a dps boost.
-1 guns from myrmi and same bonuses as before it's a nerf.

This is the balance ????
WTF ? All CCP developer lost his brain ? Another drone boat nerf. Bravo.


Please stop posting about things you clearly know nothing about.

As many others have said, +25m3 nets more dps than the loss of a turret... So when you go ahead and say "the myrmidon is nerfed!" you're either not very smart, or intentionally trolling. For your sake i'm going to assume the latter.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1603 - 2013-01-24 16:06:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Ribikoka wrote:
And that 65 more damage is 23 dps but 100+ dps for harbinger.


Harbinger with 2 HSs and 1 Burst Aerator (BC5, medium pulse spec lvl 4, 5% energy turret damage implant, 5% rof implant) gained:
IN Multifrequency: ~17 turret dps
Conflag: ~20 turret dps
Scorch: ~14 turret dps

So, I don't know where you got that 100+ dps from.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1604 - 2013-01-24 16:18:42 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Best guns ?

Of course (And even then, depends on which BC you're talking about). What ship is supposed to fit 425mms if you can't fit them on a Hurricane ? What caldari ship is supposed to fit Heavy Neutrons ? None, except the god damn Ferox.

Best guns is fine.

Full tank ? Well, they're battlecruisers. Cruisers can fit those mods already, why BCs shouldn't ?

Ever heard about fitting choices ? You don't seem to have. What choice are you making when you can fit your Cyclone with XLASB, HML, medium neutS and everything ? What choice are you making if you can fit your Harbinger with a whole rack of pulse, a 1600mm plate and everything you can need ?

Easy fitting was a reason for the nerf of the Hurricane, remember ?

Want to fit a whole rack of neutron blasters ? forget the 1600mm plate ; forget the double LSE too. You know, choose between tank and gank ?
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1605 - 2013-01-24 16:22:07 UTC
Roime wrote:
Ribikoka wrote:

without implant and 1124dps in your dream.
And that 65 more damage is 23 dps but 100+ dps for harbinger.


[Myrmidon, Ribikoka's Dream]

Internal Force Field Array I
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I


Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x2
Hobgoblin II x1


Practical everyday fit? No, but these kinds of edge case fits are something to be aware of when considering damage output potential of ships.




Please u tard bring to me this crap fitted myrm against my harbinger and let see how fast die
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1606 - 2013-01-24 16:28:46 UTC
@CCP Fozzie the myrmidon still has a full rack of guns tut tut...
Also why does the prophecy have such excessive tank wasn't that supposed to be part of the nerf to bc's also drake still has better base hp why?

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1607 - 2013-01-24 16:32:48 UTC
Ribikoka wrote:


Please u tard bring to me this crap fitted myrm against my harbinger and let see how fast die


Is that a public call-out for a 1vs1?

Just say when, baby, I'm game Cool

.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#1608 - 2013-01-24 16:39:46 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:
@CCP Fozzie the myrmidon still has a full rack of guns tut tut...
Also why does the prophecy have such excessive tank wasn't that supposed to be part of the nerf to bc's also drake still has better base hp why?


Because the Prophecy is meant to be similar to a Drake and be more tanky, for less DPS, given these are these ships could be considered 'Fleet' boats because of the resist bonus.

You can drop the tank down and go crazy DPS if you want, which is also great.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#1609 - 2013-01-24 16:48:40 UTC
Tried the Ferox and Drake out. Both feel fine now you've increased the Power Grid on the Ferox so it can fit the guns, an LSE and MWD. I'd still like 6 mid slots on the Ferox, but I guess Santa didn't get the memo. Big smile Appreciate this perhaps pushes it too far.

I can make use of that high slot though, and its far more useful to me than the low slot.

Agree with others, that the Drake could do with 10 more CPU. Depending what you're doing, its to limiting.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1610 - 2013-01-24 16:53:58 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:

Finally, your response to Zarnak's post about the Ferox was spectacularly off-base and disingenuous. Using ion blasters rather than neutrons is a perfectly reasonable choice - you trade in ~5% of your dps and a little range for a lot of extra fitting room and slightly better tracking. You're not giving up on a hull bonus, you're not changing your engagement profile or susbtantially altering your ship's capabilities, you're just giving yourself a little fitting headroom. Comparing it to an RLML cyclone, which loses ~40% of a HAM setup's damage output, ignores the hull bonus, and has a completely different operating range/engagement profile, is absurd. FWIW, if I were going to fit up a straight brawling blaster ferox after the changes, I'd go with this:


You're just completely oblivious to sarcasm aren't you, holy cow. The use of Roll is a dead giveaway to most people. My point was that the Cyclone has no reasonable way to "trade in ~5% of your dps and a little range for a lot of extra fitting room", which makes holding up a ferox that does exactly that disingenuous in its own right, as does holding up a current version of the cyclone that does the same thing (by using 180mm instead of 220mm ACs).

Anyway, like I said before - I think the cyclone is fine. If you don't, I'm the wrong person to argue with. Put together your argument complete with fits and stats for several ships for comparison... all stats, speed, tank, DPS, etc... present them to Fozzie, and see if you can convince him.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#1611 - 2013-01-24 16:59:49 UTC
Roime wrote:
Ribikoka wrote:


Please u tard bring to me this crap fitted myrm against my harbinger and let see how fast die


Is that a public call-out for a 1vs1?

Just say when, baby, I'm game Cool



And I'll frapps it :)

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#1612 - 2013-01-24 17:02:54 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
Roime wrote:
Ribikoka wrote:


Please u tard bring to me this crap fitted myrm against my harbinger and let see how fast die


Is that a public call-out for a 1vs1?

Just say when, baby, I'm game Cool



And I'll frapps it :)


I was hoping someone would.... simply seeing a harbinger killmail would not tell the whole tale. :)

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Mund Richard
#1613 - 2013-01-24 17:11:13 UTC
mynnna wrote:
My point was that the Cyclone has no reasonable way to "trade in ~5% of your dps and a little range for a lot of extra fitting room", which makes holding up a ferox that does exactly that disingenuous in its own right, as does holding up a current version of the cyclone that does the same thing (by using 180mm instead of 220mm ACs).

Anyway, like I said before - I think the cyclone is fine.
And it was a fair point to consider.
But I like sarcasm, so I was biased for your post. Smile
Moonaura wrote:
Roime wrote:
Ribikoka wrote:
Please u tard bring to me this crap fitted myrm against my harbinger and let see how fast die
Is that a public call-out for a 1vs1?
Just say when, baby, I'm game Cool
And I'll frapps it :)
Please do, and link everywhere.

In fact, make it best two out of three! Lol

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#1614 - 2013-01-24 17:14:05 UTC
SMT008 wrote:

Best guns ?

Of course (And even then, depends on which BC you're talking about). What ship is supposed to fit 425mms if you can't fit them on a Hurricane ? What caldari ship is supposed to fit Heavy Neutrons ? None, except the god damn Ferox.

Best guns is fine.

Full tank ? Well, they're battlecruisers. Cruisers can fit those mods already, why BCs shouldn't ?


Damn straight. I hate it when I have to think about what I put on my ship. Clever fitting choices are for suckers.
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1615 - 2013-01-24 17:15:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ribikoka
War Kitten wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
Roime wrote:
Ribikoka wrote:


Please u tard bring to me this crap fitted myrm against my harbinger and let see how fast die


Is that a public call-out for a 1vs1?

Just say when, baby, I'm game Cool



And I'll frapps it :)


I was hoping someone would.... simply seeing a harbinger killmail would not tell the whole tale. :)


Or a sh*t fitted myrmi mail, which has low EM tank and need to move short range to reach his target or lost his half damage.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14908367 Wait wtf happened the time was not enough to jump when enemy didnt pointed him ? :D
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#1616 - 2013-01-24 17:18:08 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Quote:
Practical everyday fit? No, but these kinds of edge case fits are something to be aware of when considering damage output potential of ships.

This Myrm fit is really fun to fly. Not great against some ships, but puts out omgwtfpwn dps from a ship that is usually not the primary.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1617 - 2013-01-24 17:19:55 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
SMT008 wrote:
Best guns ?

Of course (And even then, depends on which BC you're talking about). What ship is supposed to fit 425mms if you can't fit them on a Hurricane ? What caldari ship is supposed to fit Heavy Neutrons ? None, except the god damn Ferox.

Best guns is fine.

Full tank ? Well, they're battlecruisers. Cruisers can fit those mods already, why BCs shouldn't ?

Ever heard about fitting choices ? You don't seem to have. What choice are you making when you can fit your Cyclone with XLASB, HML, medium neutS and everything ? What choice are you making if you can fit your Harbinger with a whole rack of pulse, a 1600mm plate and everything you can need ?

Easy fitting was a reason for the nerf of the Hurricane, remember ?

Want to fit a whole rack of neutron blasters ? forget the 1600mm plate ; forget the double LSE too. You know, choose between tank and gank ?


Fitting choices. Sure. You either fit tank and short-range guns, or don't fit tank and long-range gun.

That's a good choice.

Not being able to fit a tank and best short-range guns when a T1 cruiser is capable of doing it, that's just not right.

Glad it had been fixed.

You sound like someone who would have been fine with pre-buff Caracals. You're apparently the 1% Blink

Quote:
Damn straight. I hate it when I have to think about what I put on my ship. Clever fitting choices are for suckers.


Don't talk like you don't understand what you've read. Having to choose between a tank and long-range guns is fine. Having to choose between an obscene tank and good guns is fine. Not being able to fit a reasonable tank (Yes, a single 1600mm plate is reasonable on a BC considering most cruisers can fit it) along with good guns doesn't work.

Now please, don't talk about clever fitting choices. This rebalancing is clearly trying to make unfittable/unused ships fittable/used again. This is exactly what's happening.

If you don't like it, well, tell Fozzie about it.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1618 - 2013-01-24 18:08:40 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Don't talk like you don't understand what you've read. Having to choose between a tank and long-range guns is fine. Having to choose between an obscene tank and good guns is fine. Not being able to fit a reasonable tank (Yes, a single 1600mm plate is reasonable on a BC considering most cruisers can fit it) along with good guns doesn't work.

Cruiser with 1600mm plate can barely fit medium guns (yeah, even lowest grade), so your assertion is a bit dishonest. BC already have more dps and tank than cruisers because of their base stats.

1600mm is not more reasonnable than on a cruiser, only a little less overtanked. And actually, reasonable would be more like the 2 mid shield tank a *lot* of BC were fielding some times ago (50kehp, like with a 800mm plate, versus 65-70kehp of a 1600mm plate BC). 1600mm plate is BS module, you remember ?

Truth is that no sub BS ship ever was able to fit top tier guns with MWD on top of a 1600mm plate without fiting mods. That's only a wet dream from apparently a lot of people, but that don't mean it's normal.

Oh, and lower tier guns exists for a reason too : fitting choices ; and that's not supposed to be binary like your ridiculous "LR with no tank vs SR with tank".
Shin Dari
Covert Brigade
#1619 - 2013-01-24 18:19:58 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Why is the Ferox keeping the optimal range bonus? A damage bonus would be stronger for blasters and nobody snipes with a Ferox!

There's a couple of things going on here. I completely think that PVP Ferox fits will continue to be mostly blaster fit after these changes, I want to be clear that we are not trying to force people into rails with the optimal bonus. However there are a few reasons we decided on keeping the optimal bonus:
1) The Blaster Ferox works quite well with the current stats, and the optimal bonus is in fact useful with blasters (especially with Null or Void ammo, as well as alongside a TE module) and creates a nice (if subtle) gameplay distinction between the Ferox and other blaster ships. []
2) We have metrics on how people are fitting their ships, and many of you may be surprised to know that the most common highslot modules fit to Ferox in the game are named 250mm rails. []
3) The issue of balance between long range fit Combat BCs and Tier 3 BCs is an important one. In the end the solution will likely revolve around making sniping with medium weapons and sniping with large weapons more distinct.[]

My suggestion is to change the bonus to a hybrid tracking bonus, that is useful no matter what the range and its still distinct.

Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#1620 - 2013-01-24 19:18:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Shin Dari wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Why is the Ferox keeping the optimal range bonus? A damage bonus would be stronger for blasters and nobody snipes with a Ferox!

There's a couple of things going on here. I completely think that PVP Ferox fits will continue to be mostly blaster fit after these changes, I want to be clear that we are not trying to force people into rails with the optimal bonus. However there are a few reasons we decided on keeping the optimal bonus:
1) The Blaster Ferox works quite well with the current stats, and the optimal bonus is in fact useful with blasters (especially with Null or Void ammo, as well as alongside a TE module) and creates a nice (if subtle) gameplay distinction between the Ferox and other blaster ships. []
2) We have metrics on how people are fitting their ships, and many of you may be surprised to know that the most common highslot modules fit to Ferox in the game are named 250mm rails. []
3) The issue of balance between long range fit Combat BCs and Tier 3 BCs is an important one. In the end the solution will likely revolve around making sniping with medium weapons and sniping with large weapons more distinct.[]

My suggestion is to change the bonus to a hybrid tracking bonus, that is useful no matter what the range and its still distinct.



No, actually the range bonus is very useful on the Ferox, and when scaled to the Rokh, is one of the few reasons that ship has potential with blasters.

There are plenty of ways to improve tracking, through enhancers, faction ammo, tracking computers, and the drop boosters, as well as any additional e-war such as webs, target painters etc.

But I would say, that the Damage bonus on the Moa was the right move at cruiser size because its mobile.

Off topic: I'm wondering if that is the way to go when they finally get to the Eagle to be akin to the Moa if at all possible, you can because you can be more mobile. And well... 'Eagle', because everyone flies those right? Shocked Oh wait!

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans