Player Features and Ideas Discussion

10%/lvl for harbinger -1gun its a dps boost.
-1 guns from myrmi and same bonuses as before it's a nerf.

This is the balance ????
WTF ? All CCP developer lost his brain ? Another drone boat nerf. Bravo.

First, a request: can we not do this chop-posts-up-and-reply-piecemeal thing? It makes for really snippy and annoying discussion.

Second, I'm not at all sure where you got the idea that I'm talking exclusively about 1v1s or arguing on that basis, and casting my arguments in that way is a cheap and lazy way of trying to delegitimise them. Comparisons of different ships' abilities to control the terms of an engagement, tank, and apply damage are relevant for pvp regardless of scale. I have consistently said that I am talking about the use of the tank-bonused BCs in small-scale combat (i.e. fights involving no more than 1-10 people per side), and comparing their performance on that basis. I'm focusing on small scale pvp because that's the environment in which active tanking bonuses are useful and we're discussing a ship with an active tanking bonus; if that seems unreasonable to you, say so, but don't try and mischaracterise my position in order to avoid defending your own.

To reiterate: the original version of the new cyclone had an unremarkable tank by the standards of tank-bonused BC hulls, mediocre damage with little room for utility, and required at least two fitting mods to achieve a useful setup. Knocking 100 PG off from that baseline means that the only way to fit the hull is to either accept a tank that is much weaker than that achieved by other tank-bonused BC hulls (and several BCs with no tanking bonus, for that matter) with no compensatory advantages, or to go ahead and use 3+ fitting mods.

Third, your statement that the current cyclone and the original version of the new one both require three fitting mods is way off base. If we just look at dual medium neut setups:

[Cyclone, XLASB - TQ dual neut]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Co-Processor II

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Dual 180mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I


Hammerhead II x3
Hobgoblin II x2



[NEW Cyclone, HAM - original new]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II
Co-Processor II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Hammerhead II x5

Note that neither uses more than two fitting mods. Also, talking about the fitting of the current TQ versions of any tier 1 BC is pretty meaningless because it's widely acknowledged that they were unreasonably short on fitting room and they've all received either significant increases in fitting space or have had changes that indirectly increase their fitting room (e.g. revised slot layouts or changes to their primary weapon systems). You can do perfectly reasonable Prophecy, Brutix, and Ferox fits that require at most one fitting mod; the cyclone alone stands out in needing 3+ in order to be at all competitive.

Finally, your response to Zarnak's post about the Ferox was spectacularly off-base and disingenuous. Using ion blasters rather than neutrons is a perfectly reasonable choice - you trade in ~5% of your dps and a little range for a lot of extra fitting room and slightly better tracking. You're not giving up on a hull bonus, you're not changing your engagement profile or susbtantially altering your ship's capabilities, you're just giving yourself a little fitting headroom. Comparing it to an RLML cyclone, which loses ~40% of a HAM setup's damage output, ignores the hull bonus, and has a completely different operating range/engagement profile, is absurd. FWIW, if I were going to fit up a straight brawling blaster ferox after the changes, I'd go with this:

[NEW Ferox, XLASB - ions]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Internal Force Field Array I

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Medium Diminishing Power System Drain I

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Warrior II x5

Note that it requires only one fitting mod and has full tackle with more tank and damage than the cyclone.

(fake edit: jesus that's a long post)

This is simply untrue. Off the top of my head, the following shield tankers can all fit class-appropriate tanks with full tackle:

Condor, Breacher, Slasher, Merlin, Jaguar, Harpy, Hawk, Caracal, Moa, Ferox, Drake

The shield ships that can't do it fall into one of three categories: fleet BS (Rokh, Scorpion), useless piles of crap that see very little use in pvp because of their severe limitations (hi Raven, 'sup nighthawk), and mid-range turret based ships that are several hundred m/s faster and a lot more agile than other ships in their class, operate outside web/scram range, and can use their superior speed and maneuverability to control transversal against targets and thus apply effective damage without requiring additional tackle (vaga, tempest, old nanocane, old rupture, etc.). The new cyclone certainly doesn't belong to the latter group - it uses missiles and drones for damage rather than turrets with good range, isn't appreciably faster than its counterparts (before heat/implants, it's about 80 m/s faster than a brutix with identical agility), and is most well-suited to close range brawling. It's also clearly not a fleet ship, and so only two options remain: full tackle or useless pile of crap.



The original version of the new HAM cyclone had less DPS than most other close range BCs (just over 600 before heat when fit with three damage mods and loading rage HAMs), an unremarkable tank, and no substantial advantage in terms of speed or maneuverability. The revised version is substantially weaker. You're talking nonsense.

With these changes and the armor tanking tweaks, Brutix starts looking promising. However, I doubt it will be capable of tanking well in larger fleet as a blaster brawler BC, therefore this role remains open. Ferox would need a damage boost to qualify, imo.

And if we are trying to keep gang links in mind, the Hurricane would have to sacrifice the neut to fit the link. And neuts are kinda minmatar trademark. Please don't murder cane any further!

Can you give the Brutix more powergrid? I want to use the new utility high for a medium nosferatu but they use 200 powergrid which is more than the heavy ion blaster uses.

this is sad for the ferox it will still be in the shadow of the superior brawler drake EVEN though the drake isn't a natural brawler considering the range of missiles the ROF bonus makes much more sense than the sh resist.

Myrmidon is also a bit odd considering the line of hybrid drone ships that are versatile allowing for shield tanking high dps ships at least consider the railgun algos design here.

And why the high sig radius still they are based on cruiser hulls afterall amarr bs shouldn't have lower sig than any shield buffed bc.

Realy, thats a real damage boost or ship bonuses ? LOL Still idiots playing in FW.
Check the differences -1 guns (that's ~10% damage) but get + 25% all damage bonus at lvl5 with harbinger which has insta damage and overheat ability. (almost +15% damage boost)

Myrmi lost more insta damage (because -1 gun) and change to +1 heavy drone (no overheat). (almost same damage such as old, but lost + damage in dangerous situation when need overheat)

Why don't they just make the utility/Warfare slot on the Battlecruisers Solely a Warfare slot (You are already retrofitting the BC's now, might as well go hogwild). Hell just change the slot itself to only fit a gangmod... lets just shoot the utility slot in the foot and make it fit what we expect the battlecruisers to fit, those being Warfare/Gang Mods.

The concept of the utility slot is bad in itself specifically for battlecruisers due to the Warfare modules. You want neutralizers in your highslots, use a cruiser or a battleship's utility slots.... you want it on a Battlecruiser, you will have to give up a gun for it, the "utility" slot is solely for Warfare modules. Of course if you do that, you'll have to redo warfare modules in itself (they need an update regardless).

I know, no one wants to give up their Neutralizer/Nos/SmartBomb... but if you want to get people using these T1 battlecruiser with Warfare Modules.. there goes the simple answer.

To rectify the module issue and the skill training people may or may not have, create a set of modules to do the following

New Highslot Self Warfare Module (same cpu/powergrid requirements of the current gang mods, except this mod effects solely the pilots ship)

1) Minimum leadership/module training, Module effects only the ship pilot (self warfare module, no gang support, 1/2 the effect of an actual warfare module, does not stack with other gangmods (gets overwritten by superior gang mod of those who are the booster in the fleet "Sorry no double dipping"). Module Training Cost requires leadership 3, and the warfare specialist training to 1. Change the requirement for the Warfare specialist down from leadership 5 to leadership 3, but still require leadership 5 for the current T1 Gang Mods.

Q) how do you stop people from just fitting either Armor resistance modules, shield resistance modules, etc.

A) You don't. What you do is give people flying battlecruisers a method of fitting a self selected Warfare Module of their own choosing. The want their resist higher, they can fit the module themselves (ibet less effective than the fleetwide version, but requires much less training). They want their repair quicker, their choice, shields harder, their choice, speed faster, also their choice.

Q) Some ships would be overpowered with such a choice?

A) As these BC's can only fit 1, and they are only at half power, it should have relatively minimal impact, but make the ship overall more enjoyable for the pilot. If it gets out of hand, balance the ship by giving it a bonus to a certain type of module.

Its somewhat of a ridiculous solution, but as an option to quell the whole utility highslot... just make it a pure gang module slot, and lock out any other equipment from going in there. If people want something else in there highslot, let them give up a gun... if they do not want to, then they can make a friend who can fly something else to do it. There is no solo/utlimate ship fit that can do it all. Battlecruisers were suppose to be more of a "group" ship


Currently it takes a person approximately 18 days with no implants (Give or take) to train up to a warfare link module, allow self armor modules to be equip-able in 4 to 5 days of leadership training/Warfare training. Issue fixed.

Let's battlecruisers fit whatever they want ! BS mod are the norm anyway ! I want a best gun, full tank, cruiser speed BC ! Let's ruin cruisers again !
...

I plan to evaluate the fitting costs of warfare link modules at a later point, but we're trying to keep the changes for 1.1 manageable so they'll stay the same for now.