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What is the technical issue with Off Grid Boosting?
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Miles Forrester
Unprofitable Ventures Inc.
Insidious.
#1 - 2013-01-22 09:48:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Miles Forrester
TL;DR: I wonder what coding problem there is with getting the boosts on grid.


How I'd see it is 6 hidden fields in the watch list.
- 3 for the squad/wing/fleet commander above you
- 3 for the assigned squad/wing/fleet booster above you (this can be the same player as the above)
If any of the commander roles is not present in the fleet then count them as off grid.

I assume here that the watchlist could be used as a way to check whether someone is or is not on the grid with you.

For the code this could be as follows:
if you are a wing commander:
__ flag 'W' is up
if you are a fleet commander:
__ flag 'F' is up

def squad_boosts():
__ return not ('W' or 'F') and squad commander is on grid and squad booster is on grid and leadership skills (of squad commander and booster) are in order and at least 1 squad member is on grid

def wing_boosts():
__ return not 'F' and wing commander is on grid and wing booster is on grid and leadership skills (of wing commander and booster) are in order and at least 1 squad commander is on grid (other than current: where wing commander gets it's own bonusses when at least 1 member in the wing is in system)

def fleet_boosts():
__ return fleet commander is on grid and fleet booster is on grid and leadership skills (of fleet commander and booster) are in order and at least 1 wing commander is on grid (other than current: where fleet commander gets it's own bonusses when at least 1 member in the fleet is in system)

if squad_boosts():
__ if wing_boosts():
__ __ if fleet_boosts():
__ __ __ apply best bonusses of squad, wing and fleet (min-max where needed)
__ __ else:
__ __ __ apply best bonusses of squad and wing (min-max where needed)
__ else:
__ __ apply squad booster's bonusses
else:
__ no bonusses

The underscores are for the space-hate of posting.
In the special case of a squad commander, they will probably need 9 more hidden fields to check whether at least 1 member in the squad is on grid to let the squad commander receive bonusses.

This would be in my opinion the best way to deal with the code as letting the boosters themselves check all other fleet members would be more costly for bigger fleets. Letting each fleet member check whether they apply for boosts or not would also help with disconnects (as the boosts would apply again once reconnected, when going through the code again).

I remember reading a post somewhere about using the watch list before (or at least the code behind it) so I'm probably not the first to think this up.

Though by all means if this isn't the technical issue with removing off grid boosting then enlighten us please.


In any case, thanks for reading,

Miles Forrester

Edit: code cleanup, it was indeed ugly.
TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-01-22 10:23:27 UTC
While the code could be like your example... it probably shouldn't be.

Those nested if's and that level of indentation is horrific and a crime against good clean code.

...

Miles Forrester
Unprofitable Ventures Inc.
Insidious.
#3 - 2013-01-22 10:42:56 UTC
TheSkeptic wrote:
While the code could be like your example... it probably shouldn't be.

Those nested if's and that level of indentation is horrific and a crime against good clean code.


Updated code, after seeing it a few times it does get ugly. Thanks for the feedback.
chris1945
Ambivalence Co-operative
#4 - 2013-01-22 12:20:05 UTC
Erm... Is it only me who does not understand this shytty code?
Can you maybe explain in one sentence what you try to tell us?
Miles Forrester
Unprofitable Ventures Inc.
Insidious.
#5 - 2013-01-22 12:23:12 UTC
Basically two things:

- What is the current technical issue that CCP is facing before they are able to fix/remove off grid boosting?
- Is it possible to reuse the code for the watchlist as a means to check whether someone is on grid or not?
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#6 - 2013-01-22 12:33:43 UTC
10 year old game.


Like fozzie put it to me "We could fix off grid boosting today! But it would break the server..."

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

chris1945
Ambivalence Co-operative
#7 - 2013-01-22 12:35:27 UTC
There is no need to fix off grid boosting. It's working fine as intended.

If you think off grid boosting is "unfair": Not, it's not. The boosters are often scanned out and get ganked because they got some nice faction modules sometimes. As long as this happens and it's worth the work, it seems to be balanced to me.

I rather suggest fixing some other boosting bugs (e.g. the wing commander no-boost-bug) or balance the weak info warfare links. And no messing up of the working thingys.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-01-22 12:52:14 UTC
chris1945 wrote:
There is no need to fix off grid boosting. It's working fine as intended.

If you think off grid boosting is "unfair": Not, it's not. The boosters are often scanned out and get ganked because they got some nice faction modules sometimes. As long as this happens and it's worth the work, it seems to be balanced to me.

I rather suggest fixing some other boosting bugs (e.g. the wing commander no-boost-bug) or balance the weak info warfare links. And no messing up of the working thingys.


Improved Cloaking Device II
Miles Forrester
Unprofitable Ventures Inc.
Insidious.
#9 - 2013-01-22 13:00:15 UTC
chris1945 wrote:
There is no need to fix off grid boosting. It's working fine as intended.

Not working as intended. Read more meeting minutes and dev blogs. It will be removed.

chris1945 wrote:
If you think off grid boosting is "unfair": Not, it's not. The boosters are often scanned out and get ganked because they got some nice faction modules sometimes. As long as this happens and it's worth the work, it seems to be balanced to me.

I rather suggest fixing some other boosting bugs (e.g. the wing commander no-boost-bug) or balance the weak info warfare links. And no messing up of the working thingys.

Not part of the question I'm asking, though are bugs that should be fixed eventually.
Miles Forrester
Unprofitable Ventures Inc.
Insidious.
#10 - 2013-01-22 13:04:16 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Like fozzie put it to me "We could fix off grid boosting today! But it would break the server..."

I aim to find out what exactly is stopping the fix. In other words: how would it break the server (what key details are we missing)?
TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-01-22 15:30:26 UTC
chris1945 wrote:
There is no need to fix off grid boosting. It's working fine as intended.

If you think off grid boosting is "unfair": Not, it's not. The boosters are often scanned out and get ganked because they got some nice faction modules sometimes. As long as this happens and it's worth the work, it seems to be balanced to me.

I rather suggest fixing some other boosting bugs (e.g. the wing commander no-boost-bug) or balance the weak info warfare links. And no messing up of the working thingys.


Pretty much this ^^, OGB is fine as is.... if anything, remove the ability for all but rorqual to boost from within POS shields

Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
Improved Cloaking Device II


can't boost while cloaked

...

TheSkeptic
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-01-22 15:35:29 UTC
Miles Forrester wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Like fozzie put it to me "We could fix off grid boosting today! But it would break the server..."

I aim to find out what exactly is stopping the fix. In other words: how would it break the server (what key details are we missing)?


It'd probably be something like each tick currently it just checked if the booster is in system, with valid skills and links running? then apply boosts to fleet

Adding in calculation checks for up to 250 pilots to determine who is also on the same grid and should get boosts... for every fleet, every tick probably doesn't scale so well.

...

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-01-22 16:00:14 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
10 year old game.


Like fozzie put it to me "We could fix off grid boosting today! But it would break the server..."



This

Without re writing the whole game there's nothing much possible, except patch the patch then take one patch off, but patch the hole with another patch hoping it doesn't need to be patched and the hamsters don't die.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-01-22 17:37:27 UTC
Why should a ship that gives you such a massive overwhelming advantage ,but is nearly impossible to destroy if flown by a competent pilot be working as intended? Besides its not like you can just set up your t3 200km away from the fight or do some grid fu. It's not even like links are even necessary for solo pvp.

Also offgrid links are confirmed to be on the chopping block, their is nothing you can do.

Finally people will be unable to have loki links while they are in their t1 frigate murdering noobs in FW plexes.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Miles Forrester
Unprofitable Ventures Inc.
Insidious.
#15 - 2013-01-22 19:32:03 UTC
TheSkeptic wrote:
Miles Forrester wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Like fozzie put it to me "We could fix off grid boosting today! But it would break the server..."

I aim to find out what exactly is stopping the fix. In other words: how would it break the server (what key details are we missing)?


It'd probably be something like each tick currently it just checked if the booster is in system, with valid skills and links running? then apply boosts to fleet

Adding in calculation checks for up to 250 pilots to determine who is also on the same grid and should get boosts... for every fleet, every tick probably doesn't scale so well.

This is a piece of a discussion I had before too (in a chat channel).

Thing is (what I probably fail to see) is that if a booster changes in the current setting, is that it creates some event that each fleet member must have the booster updated. And apparently it would be hard to create an event when one enters or leaves a grid (which would indicate applying or removing boosts). Or even keep the boosting within an X km range, would imply that the range is checked often (increasing server work).

If one would see a grid as a system, where players can rapidly join and leave, it would simulate doing many jumps between 'systems' (which can sometimes be laggy).

I can see that this would add some complications now, though it would be great if Fozzie opened up a bit on this Smile
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#16 - 2013-01-22 22:02:44 UTC
chris1945 wrote:
There is no need to fix off grid boosting. It's working fine as intended.

If you think off grid boosting is "unfair": Not, it's not. The boosters are often scanned out and get ganked because they got some nice faction modules sometimes. As long as this happens and it's worth the work, it seems to be balanced to me.

I rather suggest fixing some other boosting bugs (e.g. the wing commander no-boost-bug) or balance the weak info warfare links. And no messing up of the working thingys.



its not at the multi-member fleet level (dare I say blob) boosters are an issue, its the fact its becoming all too common for "solo" pvp to be flooded with the loki alt. Player A fights player B.....and player A is going how the hell is this ship so damn fast. And then sees local has a 3rd person in it. Oh I see, loki alt.

Or skirmish level pvp where I'll be nice and set up a 6 on 5. 5 of those 6 are on grid and fighting....gee where is ship number 6 he asked knowingly? Those 5 have their hands full taking on the other 5 and cba to probe out and peel off peeps to kill the loki right away.

Put the booster on grid, and it better balances these meetups. Especially in situations where the booster is boosting ships that otherwise have no way in hell of doing well in the fight.
Kuro Bon
Test Corp 123
#17 - 2013-01-23 16:40:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuro Bon
Miles Forrester wrote:
Basically two things:

- What is the current technical issue that CCP is facing before they are able to fix/remove off grid boosting?
- Is it possible to reuse the code for the watchlist as a means to check whether someone is on grid or not?


Only CCP engineers truly know.

Seems like its probably an issue with efficiently keeping them up updated everytime grid membership changes.. though honestly that doesn't seem that big a deal. Maybe they want to switch to distance based boosts, which would be trickier to do efficiently.

Protip: 100M ISK per hour is about $3US an hour.