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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Cajun Style
Shattered Planet
#1441 - 2013-01-21 01:49:25 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
Cajun Style wrote:
Moonaura wrote:
Leon Kalfren wrote:
Wow Good Job Messing Up my game play for an other 2 month of retraining to be able to use Either Hurricaine or Cyclone Since im Gun Shield now i cant use the cyclone and cant use the Huricaine aswell

at least if your gona make the cyclone a missile boat make it a real one and remove all gun slot for more missile

Ps i was already prefering to stay in my rupture than moving to the cyclone now im stuck in it not by choice but cause of the messup your planning


Yeah, the fact it isn't all missile hard points is a strange one, given that they said they are going to make the Typhoon all missiles as well, and now there are pure missile Minmitar frigates and cruisers. I really want to be here to see the tears for the Typhoon kick in. Should go something like this:

'I felt a great disturbance on the forums, as if millions of typhoon pilots suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened to the 1400 DPS Typhoon'


Consider not being stupid. Those are utility highs.

P.S. @ Moon's last post, the new ferox actually looks totally killer.


It looks totally killed lol. I will await the vast hordes of Ferox's that will no doubt be unleashed against us, and laugh as they die without capacitor to their new Prophecy overlords.

Thanks for calling me stupid. I'm doing something right then! Evil


Yeah the prophecy looks like a monster tbh

NP :P

I get what they did with the harby guns, but the real question is why nerf the speed/agility so damned hard?
Kesthely
Mestana
#1442 - 2013-01-21 01:53:11 UTC
After playing on sisi, i have to admit, i really like all of the redesigned battlecruisers.
Since i have a nice amount of skillpoints primarily towards (battle)cruiser sized ships i've been able to fit everyone of them.
There are a few minor things i would love to see improved, 10 / 15 cpu and power here or there, a bit more agility or some other tiny tweaks that would make me able to fit my prefered fits without implants or fitting modules, i'm actually quite happy with the ships atm.

However, and this is something i don't think anyone has seen or posted about yet, is that the role of the Battle CRUISER is going to be different from upcomming redesign. They are actually going to be pushed more in a clear role, instead of beeing allround the top ship in many situations. What i've seen so far, is that the Battlecruiser will become an ship wich will excell in killing cruiser sized ships (as the destroyer is to the frigates) while becomming vulnerable to the Battleships. Unlike the destroyers however, the Battlecruiser hulls main purpose will not be pure dps, but the'll be able to kill there smaller (even T2) cruisers by sustained dps + Tank.

With the Combat Battlecruiser in the role of sustained Anti-cruiser sized dps, Tank and Link capabilities, I like the road where this is heading. No there not going to be the best choice for Solo PvP, but on a hull that supports GANG Links, that isn't nessicerily a bad thing!

I hope the destinction will become better visible, when the T2 (Battle)Cruisers, Attack line Battlecruisers and Battleships redesigning has gone trough.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1443 - 2013-01-21 03:19:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
After a little testing (not much yet):

Ferox looks really nice and nasty - especially for teamwork. Obviously 5 medslots is way too little for a slow shield tanker to do proper solo tackle, but I like the Ferox like this (as long Drake doesn't get 6 medslots and keep the resist bonus).

The only thing striking me is how nice the Railguns "seems" but then wonder why anyone would fit them in the current game. Forget about sniping with this... It's just not worth even trying. Only thing you get is versatility with decent dps at close range at the cost of tracking and lots of dps.

Drake looks super boring. The only comment I have until we see the new suggestions is buff the cpu just a little...

The Prophecy is a nice and solid ship. It suits the role as drone boat and T1 command ship perfectly, however: Without a laser bonus this ship will be a monstrous bait ship and people will use it for bait only...

Why not give it drone bonus and a bonus towards guns - give it another hi-slot instead and just 6 lowslots. Throw the resist bonus after the Harbinger and fix the wrong 10% damage bonus. Dont get me wrong I love the Prophecy as it is now, but you need to keep focus on lasers for this beauty even as a drone boat. Give people a reason to do it...

Pinky

PS. With Cyclone becoming primarily a misile ship with an active tank it could easily benefit from moving a lowslot to a medslot. Active tanking isn't easy to fit (guess why Raven sucks in pvp). Also if it need to fit a command processor for 2 warfare links in the utility hi-slots this would be a very good move. This isn't a deal breaker ofcourse - people can always fit nanofibers and co-processors in those lowslots :-)
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#1444 - 2013-01-21 04:54:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyacia Cyric'ai
Pinky Denmark wrote:
PS. With Cyclone becoming primarily a misile ship with an active tank it could easily benefit from moving a lowslot to a medslot. Active tanking isn't easy to fit (guess why Raven sucks in pvp). Also if it need to fit a command processor for 2 warfare links in the utility hi-slots this would be a very good move. This isn't a deal breaker ofcourse - people can always fit nanofibers and co-processors in those lowslots :-)

Raven isn't that good in PvP because large missiles are immensely underpowered. Raven also has some PG issues but otherwise in theory being able to fit 6 torps and 2 heavy neuts very nice. It's not an active tanking issue.

As for the comments about the prophecy, I agree that it will still be used as a bait ship (it arguably is even better at this than before). However I'd rather give it more drone bandwith. I know mechanics wise CCP wants Amarr drone boats to be distinguished from Gallente in terms of having larger drone bay and less bandwith, but on the BC level this just isn't adequate. At this level a larger drone bay mostly just means having to pay more to fill that drone bay up but not necessarily being more effective in combat (arguably less so in fact) than ships with significantly smaller drone bays but larger bandwith.
Cytherion
Critical Strike
#1445 - 2013-01-21 05:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Cytherion
Has anyone thought about Command Ships?
In all honesty, Command Ships need a "buff". I have invested years in command ship (nighthawk / sleipnir) with support skills and yet it just feels underplayed, underpowered. Links are nice to run but it should not gimp the ship. They are sturdy ships, hard to train for and in the end the experience is not very rewarding. These ships should be top tier and a popular choice of squad leaders / fleet commanders. Yet its not flown on a regular basis.


I also think they need to deal higher in terms of damage, be electronically superior and have a higher base resistance to jamming and dampening. I don't care if you want to add a few months more of training but please make these ships part of the mainstream eve population. I am not asking them to be a I WIN button ships but still considering the price it takes to make them elite is not worth their role.

"The Role they play is not incentive enough to take them out in a fleet"
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#1446 - 2013-01-21 05:36:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyacia Cyric'ai
Cytherion wrote:
Has anyone thought about Command Ships?
In all honesty, Command Ships need a "buff". I have invested years in command ship (nighthawk / sleipnir) with support skills and yet it just feel underplayed, underpowered. Links are nice to run but it should not gimp the ship. They are sturdy ships, hard to train for and in the end the experience is not very rewarding. These ships should be top tier and a popular choice of squad leaders / fleet commanders. Yet its not flown on a regular basis.


I also think they need to deal higher in terms of damage, be electronically superior and have a higher base resistance to jamming and dampening. I don't care if you want to add a few months more of training but please make these ships part of the mainstream eve population. I am not asking them to be a I WIN button ships but still considering the price it takes to make them elite is not worth their role.

"The Role they play is not incentive enough to take them out in a fleet"
Did you seriously ask for the Sleipnir to get buffed? In terms of the combat oriented Command Ships, the Sleipnir and, to a slightly lesser degree, the Absolution are absolutely fine - in fact those two ships should be the benchmark for the other Command Ships to meet. Nighthawk and Astarte however do need buff, although the issue with the Astarte is largely due to active armor tanking. As for the link oriented Command Ships, CCP already said they were going to buff them significantly so that T3 links didn't make them obsolete.
Cytherion
Critical Strike
#1447 - 2013-01-21 06:08:08 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Cytherion wrote:
Has anyone thought about Command Ships?
In all honesty, Command Ships need a "buff". I have invested years in command ship (nighthawk / sleipnir) with support skills and yet it just feel underplayed, underpowered. Links are nice to run but it should not gimp the ship. They are sturdy ships, hard to train for and in the end the experience is not very rewarding. These ships should be top tier and a popular choice of squad leaders / fleet commanders. Yet its not flown on a regular basis.


I also think they need to deal higher in terms of damage, be electronically superior and have a higher base resistance to jamming and dampening. I don't care if you want to add a few months more of training but please make these ships part of the mainstream eve population. I am not asking them to be a I WIN button ships but still considering the price it takes to make them elite is not worth their role.

"The Role they play is not incentive enough to take them out in a fleet"
Did you seriously ask for the Sleipnir to get buffed? In terms of the combat oriented Command Ships, the Sleipnir and, to a slightly lesser degree, the Absolution are absolutely fine - in fact those two ships should be the benchmark for the other Command Ships to meet. Nighthawk and Astarte however do need buff, although the issue with the Astarte is largely due to active armor tanking. As for the link oriented Command Ships, CCP already said they were going to buff them significantly so that T3 links didn't make them obsolete.


Well I was talking mechanics of command ships in general.
But yes, Nighthawk at the moment even with max skills invested is nothing more than a brick specially with heavy missiles nerfed, I really dont feel like flying it. Some say fly it like a HAM drake...that would just defeat the purpose.

Anyways, while Sleipnir is nice ship and I fly it quite a bit, I sincerely hope it will not be changed to be drifted to missile platform like the Cyclone.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#1448 - 2013-01-21 06:57:02 UTC
Cytherion wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Cytherion wrote:
Has anyone thought about Command Ships?
In all honesty, Command Ships need a "buff". I have invested years in command ship (nighthawk / sleipnir) with support skills and yet it just feel underplayed, underpowered. Links are nice to run but it should not gimp the ship. They are sturdy ships, hard to train for and in the end the experience is not very rewarding. These ships should be top tier and a popular choice of squad leaders / fleet commanders. Yet its not flown on a regular basis.


I also think they need to deal higher in terms of damage, be electronically superior and have a higher base resistance to jamming and dampening. I don't care if you want to add a few months more of training but please make these ships part of the mainstream eve population. I am not asking them to be a I WIN button ships but still considering the price it takes to make them elite is not worth their role.

"The Role they play is not incentive enough to take them out in a fleet"
Did you seriously ask for the Sleipnir to get buffed? In terms of the combat oriented Command Ships, the Sleipnir and, to a slightly lesser degree, the Absolution are absolutely fine - in fact those two ships should be the benchmark for the other Command Ships to meet. Nighthawk and Astarte however do need buff, although the issue with the Astarte is largely due to active armor tanking. As for the link oriented Command Ships, CCP already said they were going to buff them significantly so that T3 links didn't make them obsolete.


Well I was talking mechanics of command ships in general.
But yes, Nighthawk at the moment even with max skills invested is nothing more than a brick specially with heavy missiles nerfed, I really dont feel like flying it. Some say fly it like a HAM drake...that would just defeat the purpose.

Anyways, while Sleipnir is nice ship and I fly it quite a bit, I sincerely hope it will not be changed to be drifted to missile platform like the Cyclone.

I wouldn't want the Sleipnir to be a missile boat or for the Absolution to be a drone boat. There's certainly no need for it. Anyway,

Nighthawk buff is actually very simple. The bonuses aren't terrible, but the ship's stats are. It's one of the most frustrating ships to fit and for this reason alone it doesn't do anything that a drake can't do just as well (if not better). The only thing a Nighthawk does better is being able to fit over 1K DPS passive shield recharge tank, but with the isk and sp required to fly such a nighthawk, it really begs the question: why didn't you just go for a Tengu?
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1449 - 2013-01-21 07:15:31 UTC
Any news on the armor tanking fixes?

.
Cytherion
Critical Strike
#1450 - 2013-01-21 07:17:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Cytherion
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:

I wouldn't want the Sleipnir to be a missile boat or for the Absolution to be a drone boat. There's certainly no need for it. Anyway,

Nighthawk buff is actually very simple. The bonuses aren't terrible, but the ship's stats are. It's one of the most frustrating ships to fit and for this reason alone it doesn't do anything that a drake can't do just as well (if not better). The only thing a Nighthawk does better is being able to fit over 1K DPS passive shield recharge tank, but with the isk and sp required to fly such a nighthawk, it really begs the question: why didn't you just go for a Tengu?


+1 to that.

offtopic I am trying to refrain from posting my opinions about T3s in this thread ( x1 lvl training for subsystems..really? its like giving a 16yr old kid, keys to a ferrari..all I can say it train it, have fun while fotm lasts..)
Corben Arctus
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#1451 - 2013-01-21 08:59:22 UTC
Cytherion wrote:

Anyways, while Sleipnir is nice ship and I fly it quite a bit, I sincerely hope it will not be changed to be drifted to missile platform like the Cyclone.


It has already been confirmed that the Claymore will be a missile ship. Sleipnir will keep the dakka dakka.
Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#1452 - 2013-01-21 09:24:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Apostrof Ahashion
Anyone with some good harbinger fits? I was trying for some time yesterday but simply could not find a solid armor fit. That thing runs out of pg with just guns, plate and afterburner. And cpu is so low that you just have to go over it out no matter what. Forget about mwd or capacitor booster.

Shield fits are a little better, but you still need implants and cant fit anything in that utility high. But EHP just sucks after the shield nerf, and you still need to downgrade something to fit it.

edit: and no, i dont want to downgrade guns, if harby cant fit heavy pulses they should just remove them from game since cruisers cant fit them, and having a weapon system that just zealot can use is dumb. And i dont want a battlecruiser with 800mm plate.
Sigras
Conglomo
#1453 - 2013-01-21 10:32:59 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
Notes: The reason you need a small cap booster on both fits - is that the best way to disable a command ships gang links is to cap drain it. This helps negate this issue, and is considered best practice as a lack of gang links is generally considered, a bad thing. Roll

So, the Damnation with slaves hits: 556,093 EHP with a signature of 265

The Vulture with halo set (The best thing currently for a shield buffer fleet fit like this) hits: 214,547 with a signature of 291

Spot the difference? Shocked

Now, the passive recharge which, you think makes the Vulture somehow awesome. Well again - its not constant - it is only that figure around 25% - comes in at 594 a second.

This equates to, 35640 over a minute - if - and somehow magically - the enemy keeps it at 25% perfectly, for 10 minutes - then... finally, you could argue about how awesome that somehow the Vulture is better.

When you reach titan level, the difference can be as much as 20 million EHP between say, the Erebus, and the Leviathan when being boosted.

And agreed, passive shield recharge is a factor, albeit nowhere near as powerful as you make out. But it would be very easy for CCP to release a shield EHP implant set, that also nerfed shield recharge time. Easy.

But shields should always have less EHP than Armor, but not quite as dramatic a difference as this.

The reason is that the armor tanks only activate at the end of the cycle, rather than shields that activate at the start. Which is a factor in logistics backed fights.

The calls for a buffer implant for shields is an entirely fair one, and one of the biggest imbalances in the current game.

This conversation has zero relevance to this thread, but here goes . . .

You realize that the damnation you just fitted out has the align time agility and turning radius of a planet right?

See the thing is that your vulture could keep up with a hurricane fleet, fairly easily, but the damnation could never keep up with an armor HAC gang, and it wouldnt have the signature to tank with it either as it would need to swap out the slaves for a halo set.

in eve there is no better or worse, it all depends on the situation . . .
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1454 - 2013-01-21 10:41:02 UTC
... So umm can we get some info on that Jove BC on the test server??

No Worries
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1455 - 2013-01-21 10:46:32 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Also it doesn't make any sense that the Drake and Ferox have smaller signatures than the Brutix and Myrmidon. We all know that ship signature is heavily influenced by shield size, the caldari ships have bigger shields (as they should) but have smaller signatures. Perhaps I am reading it wrong, but this doesn't seem right.



It won't because the Drake and ferox will fit Shield mods, enlarging their signature far over that of the Brutix and the Myrmidon.

Just like the mass of the Drake and Ferox are higher than those of the Brutix and Myrmidon wich will settle when they fit plates.

See it like a their racial experties grants them to make their base plate lighter and their base shields more compact.
Allandri
Liandri Industrial
#1456 - 2013-01-21 10:54:21 UTC
ChromeStriker wrote:
... So umm can we get some info on that Jove BC on the test server??


It's not Jove, it is SoCT
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#1457 - 2013-01-21 10:59:06 UTC
Sigras wrote:

This conversation has zero relevance to this thread, but here goes . . .

You realize that the damnation you just fitted out has the align time agility and turning radius of a planet right?

See the thing is that your vulture could keep up with a hurricane fleet, fairly easily, but the damnation could never keep up with an armor HAC gang, and it wouldnt have the signature to tank with it either as it would need to swap out the slaves for a halo set.

in eve there is no better or worse, it all depends on the situation . . .


Actually, if you read the thread and the comments previously, it was relevant, as it was all to do with a much earlier comment and shield recharge, which in its way, was relevant to EHP numbers on the Ferox.

As you will see if you continue in the thread, I soon get back to the Prophecy and Ferox. Please feel to rip into those lol

Alas, the Damnation is win. The Vulture is mildly quicker, but it isn't some Minmitar spring chicken that you might think it is. And besides, when webbed etc, what good is having a lot less EHP and a larger signature anyway?

Given any boosting command ship is intended to be used in larger fights, its a fair bet to say it may well be webbed if primary and will rely on its resists and buffer to survive.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Allandri
Liandri Industrial
#1458 - 2013-01-21 11:06:04 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
...whine about not using 800mm...


[New Setup 1]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Heat Sink II

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Optical Tracking Computer I,Optimal Range Script

Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I,Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I,Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I,Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I,Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I,Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I,Imperial Navy Multifrequency M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Drones Hammerhead II x5, Hobgoblin II x5
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1459 - 2013-01-21 11:47:11 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:


The Prophecy is a nice and solid ship. It suits the role as drone boat and T1 command ship perfectly, however: Without a laser bonus this ship will be a monstrous bait ship and people will use it for bait only...

Why not give it drone bonus and a bonus towards guns - give it another hi-slot instead and just 6 lowslots. Throw the resist bonus after the Harbinger and fix the wrong 10% damage bonus. Dont get me wrong I love the Prophecy as it is now, but you need to keep focus on lasers for this beauty even as a drone boat. Give people a reason to do it...


Amarr ships without lasers tend to be the best ones.. Unless you're blobbing.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1460 - 2013-01-21 13:03:19 UTC
Allandri wrote:
ChromeStriker wrote:
... So umm can we get some info on that Jove BC on the test server??


It's not Jove, it is SoCT


Pff close enough lol

No Worries