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Shifting fuel burden for bridging to cyno ships?
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Hrothgar Nilsson
#1 - 2013-01-19 18:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
This isn't a proposal as such, but I'm curious as to what people would think if there were a change in the mechanic for cynos in which the fuel burden were shifted away from titans to the cyno ships.

Basically, something like a specialized cyno frigate and cyno cruiser. Say the cyno frigate has a 5,000m3 fuel bay, and the cruiser 25,000m3. As ships bridge to the cyno, fuel is consumed from the cyno ship's fuel bay to maintain the energy necessary for the cynosural field.

Any other ship could light a cyno, but the number of ships would be restricted to the amount of fuel the ship can carry. A Velator could possibly bridge a couple of battleships, whereas a cyno frigate could bridge in 60, and a cyno cruiser 300. Likewise a cyno frigate could bridge in 5 supers, and a cyno cruiser 25.

Thoughts? Is this something that has been beaten to death 100 times? Negative or positive impact on offense/defense and tactics/strategy?

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-01-19 18:59:15 UTC
As far as I know this is a new concept but it is not a good one in the respect it promotes blob hot drops.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#3 - 2013-01-19 20:59:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
As far as I know this is a new concept but it is not a good one in the respect it promotes blob hot drops.

Shifting the fuel burden from the titan to cyno frigates and cruisers would be more limiting for hot drops, unless a certain amount of forethought and preparation were put into arranging a sufficient forward position with the requisite ships and fuel for the drop to take place.

It'd probably be more likely that such cyno ships might be more heavily accompanied en route to perform the deed, but I'm not sure if that's a "blob" or a bad thing.

If these were, say, tech 2 frigates and cruisers, it would also introduce a higher level of consequence for cyno ship losses, a 20mil ISK frigate or 150mil ISK cruiser, albeit still rather small in the grand scheme of what the objective of an operation in which a titan bridge is involved.

As it stands now, it seems there's little depth in the practice of cynoing - simply strap a cyno generator onto the cheapest ship you can find, and send enough of them in case one or more gets picked off on the way.

I think this is an area of the game in which something with rather little depth could be more fully fleshed out and more highly developed, that could introduce a greater degree of strategy and tactics for a practice than is currently the case.

I should say, the idea is in no way meant to be more limiting to the practice, but rather introduce new elements and an altered mechanic to more fully develop an aspect of the game which currently seems rather thinly developed. Or, in two words, moar depth.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2013-01-19 21:59:49 UTC
But the cyno is just a beacon, the jump engines are in the cap ship. Why would the fuel for said jump drives not be in the same system as the drives?

Do you keep your car's fuel in your fuel tank, or at your destination?
Hrothgar Nilsson
#5 - 2013-01-20 02:46:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
Danika Princip wrote:
But the cyno is just a beacon, the jump engines are in the cap ship. Why would the fuel for said jump drives not be in the same system as the drives?

Do you keep your car's fuel in your fuel tank, or at your destination?

It would involve a modification to the fictional technology behind it. As was said, a shift in the game mechanic to fuel being required on hand to reach a cynosural field, to fuel being needed to maintain the field and being diminished from the cyno ship proportional to the mass arriving to it.

It's not as if the cynosural field is a hypothetical technology like FTL travel/warp drives anyways which physicists have written thousands of articles theorizing about, it's purely a fictional technology entirely made up by CCP. Cars aren't exactly a valid analogy either, unless parking next to a gas pump with an empty tank, not putting gas in your car, and pressing a button gives you a 250-mile driving range is what you're referring to.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Misaka Todako
Close Proximity
#6 - 2013-01-20 03:13:37 UTC
This just makes it harder for anyone to react to large fleets.

If, for example, you wanted to knock on the IHUB in QPO, you'd find it quite impossible as goons have a truckload of caps in there. So now you need to run a bunch of cruiser sized cynos to get your cap fleet in there, otherwise get owned by their cap fleet.

Similarly you can't bridge in reinforcements without moving these expensive cynos around, which will be even juicier targets and likely easier to kill than your run of the mill cyno frig.

Cynos are supposed to be sacrificial, and easy to squeeze in to your fleets. Often a BC or BS gang will have an offline cyno in a utility high, in the event they need something bridged or jumped in. Your change basically requires them to truck around and defend these one off utility ships or risk being caught with their pants down in an escalation.

Instead of further picking this apart, what are you trying to solve?
Kuro Bon
Test Corp 123
#7 - 2013-01-20 15:26:41 UTC
Not sure what the OPs main objective is....

...seems the main issue with Titan bridges isn't the bridge itself, but the fact that there is no risk in using it. I prefer the often posted suggestion to make the Titan go through first to create the bridge. The Titan becomes the destination for the bridge, and leaves behind some kind of "entry point" that lasts as long as the bridge it up. This at least requires risking the TItan, rather than just hot-dropping tiny fleets to gank one or a couple expensive ships.

Protip: 100M ISK per hour is about $3US an hour.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-01-20 16:10:09 UTC
I am not seeing this hinder the hot drop....it actually could make it easier.


Go for the grey elephant in the room, BOBS. Until the patch hits (and still even after), your typical BOBSs supportted ninjya op is limited by fuel and range. The work around ofc is lots of transports carrying lots of fuel getting dropped with the bombers/recons/ninja t3.

You'd be replacing this with COVOP frigs. Flown right they can get that fuel anywhere they want with little issue. Even a gate camp has to have a drone guarded inty pilot with some skill to nail these boats. transports are jsut as slippery....but they are also more fuel to bridge in if using the bridgein fuel for next hop method.

And I am thinking you are seeing a cost of hot drop bene, that is it will be more expensive. I don't see that. You replaced say 5 transports with 5 cyno frigs. More gas costs yes, but the fuel carrier jsut got real cheap.

And for more fun, you can scare up covops pilots real easy. Not everyone flies transports.

This ofc assumes covops/recon gets this role bonus...which it has to, but doesn't at the same time. Like said abive you could stage these with jsut a little bit of planning.

Titan bridging...this gets even worse. the fans of hot drop can load up a system pretty good. Current system you actually get delays as I have seen some ops where someone forget to plan for the titan bridges needed and it was oh crap.....someone bring me some gas now or I am not bridging jack crap. It wuold not be hard for pl/goons/etc to scare up a few more frigs for backup.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-01-20 16:25:37 UTC
Limit it to t1 industrials
Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-01-20 16:30:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Dolorous Tremmens
the fuel limits would also not really make any kind of dent in the ability of cap ships to swarm a system, as all it would take is bridging in more cyno cruisers such as you describe with every wave of caps jumping into the system. the large groups can already batphone a huge number of caps and supercaps, as well as sub caps, more of your cyno ships would only really be a few alts that distract no one as they're one purpose is to light a cyno, and then aren't part of the fight. One less cap to fill a space with a cyno ship istn't an argument that can be made, because I don't think I've seen a capfleet ever hit 256.

Get some Eve. Make it yours.
Nolan Furis
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-01-20 17:41:23 UTC
How about limiting the bridge to only ships that don't have a jump drive?
Any ship w/ a jump drive needs to jump in individually.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2013-01-20 18:09:57 UTC
Nolan Furis wrote:
How about limiting the bridge to only ships that don't have a jump drive?
Any ship w/ a jump drive needs to jump in individually.



They did that already, years ago.