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POSes: I am a small portion of the community

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Taawuz
League of Non-Aligned Worlds
#1901 - 2013-01-18 01:35:57 UTC
Manzinus wrote:
Fix POS mechanics. I don't care if thats the only thing the next whole expansion is on. Fix it.


This.
Infinion
Awesome Corp
#1902 - 2013-01-18 01:38:12 UTC
+1

at least work in tandem with other features if you don't want to put all your manpower into it
Frying Doom
#1903 - 2013-01-18 01:39:02 UTC
Ok a bit of a long and rambly post from me

First I want to look at the time line as the minutes are all over the place.

Wednesday Schedule


CSM as stakeholder - Trebor - NDA REVIEW DONE
Improvements on Bounty Hunting - Aleks - NDA REVIEW DONE
Factional Warfare - Trebor - NDA REVIEW DONE
Lunch
Mercs, Wars and Crimewatch - Hans - NDA REVIEW DONE
Nullsec - Elise - NDA REVIEW DONE
NDA topic #1 (double session) - Hans - NDA REVIEW DONE



Thursday Schedule


EVE/DUST link - FIRST DRAFT DONE by Hans
Player Experience (new and old) - Kelduum - NDA REVIEW DONE
CREST for 3rd parties - Two step - NDA REVIEW DONE
Lunch
Voting system changes - Trebor - NDA REVIEW DONE
Corp Management - SESSION CANCELLED
NDA topic #2 - No minutes, NDA paragraph done by Trebor
NDA topic #3 - No minutes, NDA paragraph done by Issler
Out of Client (game on more platforms) - Two step - NDA REVIEW DONE



Friday Schedule


EVE Marketing - Dovinian - NDA REVIEW DONE
EVE Economy & PLEX - Trebor - NDA REVIEW DONE
NDA topic #4 - Trebor - NDA REVIEW DONE
Lunch
EVE UI - Kelduum - NDA REVIEW DONE
Ship Balancing - Elise - NDA REVIEW DONE
Art - Trebor - NDA REVIEW DONE
Live Events - Seleene - NDA REVIEW DONE
Community site - Very short session, paragraph written up by Trebor
Nullsec part 2 - Elise - NDA REVIEW DONE
DUST part 2 - FIRST DRAFT DONE by Hans

So the comments as they have been brought up

Unifex stated that what CCP did was spend effort and prototype what would make a good POS system. It would, however, only affect the group of people who manage POSes. Focusing that amount of time and effort on some small singular aspect of the game and delivering only that “is what will kill the business”. (page 37)

and

Taking the opportunity to talk about POSes, Alek queried why the CSM were so late in learning that POSes were hard to do now. Further, he disagreed that POSes would only touch a small subset of the players and asked how did CCP feel able to accomplish the feat of balancing null-sec, which Alek viewed as comparatively more difficult than POSes. Soundwave was the first to respond and told Alek that he felt some of the assertions he made were incorrect and, from a game design perspective, implementing changes to null-sec and the sov system in general would be easier than revamping the POS system. On top of that, Soundwave added, the POS system by itself would only affect a small portion of the community. (page 38)

Both of these comments were made on Wednesday

As to the response by CCP Gargant
CCP Gargant wrote:
It is good to hear that all of you are so heavily invested in the game, and specifically in things that need an overhaul. You guys still have passion for EVE and that in turn makes me more passionate for what I do here. Furthermore, it would appear that Two step, albeit being present at the CSM summit, seems to have misinterpreted what has been stated so far. That said, I want to bring three quotes from the CSM meeting minutes to your attention:

From page 19:

"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "

From page 99:

"Seagull: We have 4 things that are interacting [regarding the POSes]: the gameplay and design of the POS system, the role POSes play in achieving things in the game (its features), the technical layer (code) then manages all of this (which currently is old and needs refactoring), and art. Regarding art, there is the question of do you want to redo the art, do you want to show individual modules (as opposed to have things inside, like a station), and then you have technical issues, such as what does the rendering complexity of a scene do to client performance?"

"Seagull: The reason there's a “no” to doing [Modular POSes] right now is that it was affecting all of these areas in a way that was too big to do at once. What you're trying to do is try to find a way to get what you want, but what we need to do is go back and look at how we can separate all these layers, and figure out something reasonable, and then have Art do something that's immersive and amazing."

Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention. Many of you have already pointed out that it is painful to use at best, a huge pile of unusable dingleberries at worst. Some talk about this being the "old" CCP appearing again but I want to assure all of you that the mistakes that happened in 2011 will not repeat themselves. CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE

I can't make promises for game designers or the people that make content for EVE Online. Please try to remember that. What I can do is assure you that your voices have been heard, the opinion of the CSM has been heard, and the concerns raised in this thread have been heard.

The page 19 quote is from The next decade session, as to where it sits only the CSM knows also its not page 19 but page 15

As to the other quote on page 99 is from the Art session held on Friday, this makes me wonder if the original "NO" from wednesday was possibly rethought a bit during the next series of sessions but on to the main hub of this

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#1904 - 2013-01-18 01:39:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
CCP Gargant wrote:
Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention.


I must point out in this that no where even in this thread has any member of CCP actually said "YES" we will do something about POSs. I for one would like to see a clear yes that they will start working on it, not as the full force of CCP but slowly releasing fixes in the next and every consecutive release until it is actually done.

Just one clear YES that is all

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Didona Carpenito
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#1905 - 2013-01-18 01:42:05 UTC
I have 5 accounts.
3 accounts that use pos's. I have been very patient waiting for some love.
No pos fix, no reason to keep 3 accounts....
Not mad, no raging, three (3) accounts that are paid in full every year will be gone......
Longtime Luver
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1906 - 2013-01-18 01:43:18 UTC
I don't work with POS because they are such a pain in the ass. If they were a bit easier to work with I would love to have a POS just for me. Devs need to hear that, MAKE POS SIMPLER OR STREAMLINED OR WHATEVER! Your loving players will make use of this new feature. EVE has a lot of great ideas in game that need fixing. There is already so much content, why not spend some major effort on this. I remember back in the Bob Delve wars they where saying they hated the POS system both because of the sov system and the POS itself. They fixed one of those. Called it good.
Otto Jaeger
Black.Hole.Sun
#1907 - 2013-01-18 01:43:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Otto Jaeger
Fix POSes. If nothing else, then please DO something about the security. Then it won't be only small portion of eve players who use them ( let's not talk about how small with poses almost in every wormhole or hs/ls/null system)

Don't be lazy, don't waste time and energy on finding excuses "why it can't be done".

Whole expansion dedicated to it would be great - now when we have rebalanced ships, fw, new crime watch...

Please don't let it end like orca's cargo hold. "Instead of division you can now have cans." Piece of crap. I hope that this approach "if it's complicated, delete it" won't continue in further expansions. That's not what I'm paying for.

Yes I do live in whole. And I must say it's a pretty bussy place if you ask me. Active minority..maybe?
Sgetout
Perkone
Caldari State
#1908 - 2013-01-18 01:48:27 UTC
Fix POSes. For teh great justice!
Kalel Nimrott
Caldari Provisions
#1909 - 2013-01-18 01:55:12 UTC
You can fix the space stick, or you can fix my stick. Your call.

Bob Artis, you will be missed.

O7
Tursarius
School of Life
#1910 - 2013-01-18 01:56:33 UTC
I support revamping the pos system. It is in major need of an overhaul. More so than any other aspect of the game. The pos system could bring so much more to eve. Please Fix it now!
Oghedron
School of Life
#1911 - 2013-01-18 01:57:33 UTC
I am also a small part of the community. Please fix or remake the pos system.
Samus Arun
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1912 - 2013-01-18 02:05:20 UTC
+1, I support POS fixes.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1913 - 2013-01-18 02:05:59 UTC
Man, this thread sure did fill up, shockingly it seems you might be mistaken about how small a part of your community HATES control towers and everything about them (because they suck hogballs).

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Ildryn
IDLE INTENTIONS
#1914 - 2013-01-18 02:06:41 UTC
-1
I would rather have the ship balancing and FW be made a priority.
Akyla Dey
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1915 - 2013-01-18 02:08:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Akyla Dey
Manzinus wrote:
Fix POS mechanics. I don't care if thats the only thing the next whole expansion is on. Fix it.

I'll see your post and raise you one. Quit with the other stuff. Skip an expansion. Sure, it'll mean less new subs initially, but the benefit in the long run is great. Hell, you can even quit with the ship rebalancing and v3 for awhile. I think it's going great, I love the new art and new balancing, but ships work right now. I can go savage another man's ship just fine. Maybe it's not optimal, but it works and it's fun. Right now POSs are neither.

I don't suggest this because I want my new POS and I want it sooner than later. I say it because it could be the foundation for everything you want to do. It ties in with industry, with null and the dynamics there, and with small gang action if the design is right. The 'Big 3' mentioned in the CSM Minutes, along with a whole host of other possibilities for emergent play. It could literally be the bedrock on which you base your future plans, while addressing something that is integral to the current game. I think it's worth the short term pain for the long term gain.
ShogunAssassin
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
#1916 - 2013-01-18 02:12:30 UTC
+1
Aldo Hanso
Triumvirate Enterprises
#1917 - 2013-01-18 02:12:44 UTC
Please, for the love of all that is holy, improve the POS system or give us modular POS's. I have eight of my nine characters working and living in POS's, some in highsec, some in W-space, and its a very frustrating mechanic. I know its hard to improve them, seemingly impossible, but the whole community is behind the idea, CCP. We know you are thinking about big things, but please don't ignore this.

Give us POS or give us Death!

Aldo Hanso
Clementina
University of Caille
#1918 - 2013-01-18 02:15:34 UTC
POSes affect literally everyone who plays this video game. The stocks of Tech 2 materials that came from mission rewards have been exhausted a long time ago.

Also nearly every medium sized or large corporation tries to maintain at least one for various reasons. This will often drive CEOs to distraction. Wormhole corp members need POSes in order to survive.

CCP should fix them, they are broken beyond belief, and have been perhaps ever since their release.
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#1919 - 2013-01-18 02:16:35 UTC
I have no idea what it would take to simplify or add to the existing POS system, but from the perspective of a new player I can tell you this: If you make it more accessible I would go to great, irrational lengths to acquire a POS.

I've always envied those rats in missions that have "bunkers." I've always thought...why can't I have a bunker I can deploy in the middle of space, with a fitting window where I can, say, add a cloak to it or something to hide it from other players, and chill the f out in it in the middle of space like a little cave in the mountains?

So ya, I'd love a 1-3 year revamp of the system and I'd make up a use for a POS even if I had no good reason to own one...
Epigene
Cordata Enterprises
#1920 - 2013-01-18 02:16:53 UTC
Please don't turn POS into Stations. Yes they need to be tweaked but make it too easy, too comfortable and the allure of the frontier life is gone.



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