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POSes: I am a small portion of the community

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AutumnWind1983
Reboot Required
#1541 - 2013-01-17 19:41:01 UTC
CCP Seagull wrote:
Both me and CCP Unifex are following this discussion, and will respond when we've had a chance to catch up on all of it and can address and clarify some things properly. Please see CCP Gargant's post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2475724#post2475724


Thank you for your response in this thread and massive displease regarding the current situation with POS's. I and many others are looking forward to your response and actions.

James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org
catallin
Bite Me inc
#1542 - 2013-01-17 19:42:50 UTC
I, as part of the oh-so-very-small-portion-of-the-players-who's-life-revolves-around-POSes, approve this thread Roll
Perramas
DreddNaut
#1543 - 2013-01-17 19:42:59 UTC
What is difficulty? Only a word indicating the degree of strength requisite for accomplishing particular objects; a mere notice of the necessity for exertion; a bugbear to children and fools; only a stimulus to men

+1

Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people- Eleanor Roosevelt

Kana Akana
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1544 - 2013-01-17 19:43:14 UTC
Please please CCP bring the long needed improvements to POS's. I hope you listen to the community, POS's can sometimes be a really huge pain. Sad

If POS's would be easier to manage, more and more players would love WH life :)
Nair Alderau
The Blessed Chains of Freedom
#1545 - 2013-01-17 19:43:31 UTC
BennyBoy Starhopper wrote:
OK - I am not usually one for CCP bashing at all - I usually avoid it like the plague.

However - CCP - one of your representatives lied to me face to face about this.

It very likely is a case of he thought it was true and later on sbd else changed it. And mind you, it's not as if CCP says they are not doing POS in 2013. The question is how much (priority) and how exactly (iteration vs revamp).
Von Keigai
#1546 - 2013-01-17 19:43:33 UTC
I am a newish player (started in 2012) and I recently formed my first corp so I could put up my first POS so I could live in wspace. Much research was needed to know how they worked, how to design it, what a good design was. This was daunting, but I did it. Actually putting the thing up, I didn't find terribly awful. But it did take a long time -- several evenings mostly devoted to launch for corp, anchor, online (wait.......), repeat. Doing it once was almost fun, if slow. But I would find it terribly awful if I had to do it more than once per year or so. Respect to those logistical types who do this on a regular basis.

Anyway, by now I am absurdly proud of my POS. It's mine. It'll reject anything but the strongest fleet and it is totally not worth attacking. And... I built that! That's going to keep me subbing (and someone else buying PLEX for me) for many months to come.

Ownership -- it sells subscriptions. Don't make that hard, CCP. Make it easy.

vonkeigai.blogspot.com
Laurici
C5 Flight
Fraternity.
#1547 - 2013-01-17 19:45:04 UTC
I am a small part of the game, I use poses. That is all.
Naybuka
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1548 - 2013-01-17 19:45:36 UTC
W-Space for POS-changes!
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1549 - 2013-01-17 19:46:21 UTC
Frankly I don't care whether or not you do a fancy art-rework of POSes in the immediate future or not, but fixing some basic mechanical stuff should be high on your list of priorities and is an integral part of nullsec rebalancing.

At the very least you need to:

- Re-code POSes and their structures to: make forcefields work properly and consistently, allow structure access / permissions to be set more flexibly (for example, enabling configurations that allow characters with the password to use CHAs regardless of what corp they're in), etc

- Add / rework existing modules to make POS more useful-- things like "refining arrays" that can only handle stacks of a single type of thing, take ages to do their jobs and do it badly, for example, need to be made into practical tools.

- For the love of god, MAKE THE POSITIONING ARROWS USED TO CHOOSE WHERE TO ANCHOR MODULES APPEAR AS A FIXED-SIZE UI ELEMENT instead of treating them as an in-world object that gets smaller the further the camera is from the POS module!

- Add the T2 moon harvesting arrays that you never put in the game!

- Perhaps revisit POS armaments-- while armed POS used to be capable of deterring attacks back in 2007, supercapital proliferation has made POS defenses utterly irrelevant.


I'm sure there's a zillion other things that people who use POS more extensively than I do could recommend which could be done without hijacking the entire art team for six months. A full starbase rework could be awesome, but at the very least you should try and make the existing ones useful.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1550 - 2013-01-17 19:47:29 UTC
I used to take care of 5 POSes doing sylramic reactions. I still wake up in a sweat thinking I have to set it up again, or repurpose the POSes.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Celly Smunt
Neutin Local LLC
#1551 - 2013-01-17 19:48:33 UTC
I also wanted to add this to the thread in the hopes that it might spark some discussion at CCP.

it seems to me that one of the major components of any change/revamp/rework that entails graphical changes has to be as taxing on the arts department as they are on the coding side of the issue, so why not put the graphic design into the hands of the player-base as has been done with some recent ship models?
It's a given that the end result would be more than just what the players submitted, but, you could get a good solid start on that part of it.
Now whether modules added would change the look of the POS or not would remain to be seen, but to get a good "base" platform for each race and even the faction versions, would be a terribly easy task for the players while allowing CCP to use it's resources toward other aspects of their work and then, have them step in for the final touches when needed.

I would also guess that many folks would be willing to do this without the expectation of any compensation at all and would be happy for nothing more than a footnote of "designed by" in the POS's information/description page, but IF CCP wanted to make it a contest of sorts, then that too would be terribly easy for them to do.

I'm sure that many folks would even donate something to a prize pool if CCP didn't want to give some incentive for people to help them speed the process up a little bit.

just a thought.

o/
Celly

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#1552 - 2013-01-17 19:48:41 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
I used to take care of 5 POSes doing sylramic reactions. I still wake up in a sweat thinking I have to set it up again, or repurpose the POSes.


Had 12 at one point. I guess that's why I'm so bitter now.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Demyen
Araata-Teiva Kamloss
#1553 - 2013-01-17 19:48:44 UTC
CCP Seagull wrote:
Both me and CCP Unifex are following this discussion, and will respond when we've had a chance to catch up on all of it and can address and clarify some things properly. Please see CCP Gargant's post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2475724#post2475724


Seagull: I'm grateful you and Unifex are paying personal attention to this thread. Those of us who are paying attention understand that CCP's not going to do nothing, so more than anything I think this thread should be interpreted as we, the players, just making sure the pressure faucet is on at full blast on a topic that's VERY important to all of us.

I think most of us will be really happy with change happening over multiple expansions as long as we can see that *something* is being done, and that the design is being done intelligently.

To put a quick mostly-related bug in your ear on something I hope to talk the CSM in more detail about soon: a lot of things that have been done lately...well, over the past several years...on all levels of design, from UI on up, have been really immersion-breaking; things have felt more like game features built for an MMO than real tools designed for real capsuleers in the real world of New Eden running real supercorps and fighting real wars with each other. I believe if more focus is given to maximizing immersion and drawing more from the real world and real-world conflicts, many design challenges will solve themselves. This absolutely includes POSes and nulsec.

Thanks again. Looking forward to seeing what comes next!
Zanthra Shard
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1554 - 2013-01-17 19:49:49 UTC
I think that with a POS change that allows people to put up personal POSes rather than restricting them to people in corporations with roles, that the number of people who will be involved with POSes will increase DRAMATICALLY! Make sure the new system is available to as many people as possive. Give them something to call their own in space. It will be awesome to have the feeling of owning a home.
Deadcode Analord
Doomheim
#1555 - 2013-01-17 19:50:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Deadcode Analord
Unifex/Seagull, thanks for reading.

tl;dr of the thread:

1. The extreme importance of the POS overhaul cannot be stated more clearly. It should be present in the summer plan.

2. We would very much appreciate a concrete "You will see module x released in the summer expansion to deal with the problem with y" or "hangar tabs and permissions will be overhauled with the summer expansion" or really any specific action your team will take that deals with POS's with a specific time frame attached.

(I say "we would very much like" because none of us are going to unsub over this, too many rely on the work we do, just consider the amount of free time we could spend doing other things if literally any one of the POS's problems were fixed)

3. This is in no way a deviation from your plan to help instigators/enablers, this is in fact exactly in line with said plan.

Thanks for all the work you guys do, and I for one am hopeful.
Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#1556 - 2013-01-17 19:51:30 UTC
Hathrul wrote:
CCP Gargant wrote:

From page 19:

"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "


page 15.....just saying


So just ignore the other 100+ pages and grasp to this one paragraph that gives a glimmer of hope they might ... might ... get around to fixing the POS in the next 10 years.

If the next "theme" turns out to be ponies, we might just get a floating stable plugged into the current POS dis-functional functionality.

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie
Quintus Felix
Daring Greatly
#1557 - 2013-01-17 19:53:40 UTC
"Unifex stated that what CCP did was spend effort and prototype what would make a good POS system. It would, however, only affect the group of people who manage POSes. Focusing that amount of time and effort on some small singular aspect of the game and delivering only that “is what will kill the business”. (page 37)

As this thread shows, and from what I and nearly everyone else here can tell you from personal experience, POSes are not some 'small singular aspect' of the game.

The entire expansion that CCP has gone on record as saying that they want to get back to in terms of *how* expansions work is Apocrypha- funny, then, that the cornerstone of that expansion (wormhole space) is entirely reliant on POSes. They are used in EVERY class of space, all over New Eden, and ignoring something that is a) already so important to so many and b) clearly could be used to market the game to new players keen to 'own their own share of the universe' - that "is what will kill the business".

I wholeheartedly support this thread. +1 OP.
Cat Troll
Incorruptibles
#1558 - 2013-01-17 19:54:04 UTC
Well, they can't do it all at once, considering they are now moving to a theme instead of a specific feature in their expansions.
That means that a specific part of the game won't be the whole of the expansion - ever.
But that doesn't mean they can't START it.

CCP should take the suggestion of someone else I heared - Keep the current PoS's alongside new "Space homes", which will be slowly but surely developed by a team.
Each expansion will make these space homes more and more like the PoS's we wanted to have, and eventually the old ones will be replaced completely.

Lolwut: "Yes, you kids don't know how lucky you have it. These days noobs get given free tackle ships for PvP but back in the old days the only tackle ships we were given were our pods. We had to use them to bump their rookie ships out of alignment to stop them warping off."
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#1559 - 2013-01-17 19:55:07 UTC
Two step wrote:
Again, I'd like to remind folks that are actually reading this thread to keep things civil and constructive. Going all nutso will only hurt the chances of getting CCP to work on POSes.

Brooks Puuntai wrote:
While I agree with this to some point, however how long should the playerbase play nice? This has been discussed and almost unanimously support from the playerbase for years, yet it has remained a elephant in the room. While many would not wish to resort to rage, it seems to be the only effective measure to get CCP support, as history would show.

Development on this should have started shortly after Apocrapha, especially with the explosion of POS use when wormholes where released. Yet it does not seem that CCP even cares or has even started working on it.

Two step wrote:
Lets try playing nice until the planning process is done, to start with.

The planning process for the release after Apocrypha *is* done. As is the planning process for the release after that, too. This is just some sick variation of Soon™ that CCP uses to troll the playerbase.

MDD
Marrakech Olivia Minter
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1560 - 2013-01-17 19:55:18 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:
It is good to hear that all of you are so heavily invested in the game, and specifically in things that need an overhaul. You guys still have passion for EVE and that in turn makes me more passionate for what I do here. Furthermore, it would appear that Two step, albeit being present at the CSM summit, seems to have misinterpreted what has been stated so far. That said, I want to bring three quotes from the CSM meeting minutes to your attention:

From page 19:

"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "

From page 99:

"Seagull: We have 4 things that are interacting [regarding the POSes]: the gameplay and design of the POS system, the role POSes play in achieving things in the game (its features), the technical layer (code) then manages all of this (which currently is old and needs refactoring), and art. Regarding art, there is the question of do you want to redo the art, do you want to show individual modules (as opposed to have things inside, like a station), and then you have technical issues, such as what does the rendering complexity of a scene do to client performance?"

"Seagull: The reason there's a “no” to doing [Modular POSes] right now is that it was affecting all of these areas in a way that was too big to do at once. What you're trying to do is try to find a way to get what you want, but what we need to do is go back and look at how we can separate all these layers, and figure out something reasonable, and then have Art do something that's immersive and amazing."

Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention. Many of you have already pointed out that it is painful to use at best, a huge pile of unusable dingleberries at worst. Some talk about this being the "old" CCP appearing again but I want to assure all of you that the mistakes that happened in 2011 will not repeat themselves. CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE

I can't make promises for game designers or the people that make content for EVE Online. Please try to remember that. What I can do is assure you that your voices have been heard, the opinion of the CSM has been heard, and the concerns raised in this thread have been heard.


Well as long as it happens, even step by step. Thanks for the clarification.