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POSes: I am a small portion of the community

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Maganooz Bawbagski
Motiveless Malignity
Deepwater Hooligans
#1181 - 2013-01-17 17:00:46 UTC
Post.

Access to PoS use should be determined by in-game conditions (strength of corp/allies etc.), not on the ability to manage an awkward and confusing mechanic.
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#1182 - 2013-01-17 17:01:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Smoking Blunts
fixes pos's for the love of god

oh and corp roles, that system is so broken its not funny

OMG when can i get a pic here
JoostSkywalker
Lionheart Investments
#1183 - 2013-01-17 17:02:17 UTC
Maybe because wormholers like to keep themselfes out of certain useless politics!
Maybe because we just like our privacy !
But we are wormholers!
Masters of the T3!
Kings of cloackies!
And we destroy on average more and fly more expensive ships then anyone else!
The pos is our home, its our safety!

And we have our expensive ships exposed, while everyone else has them safe in a station.
Furthermore there is the titans and supers, wich outclass us wormholers in value.
And also they relly on posses.

So CCP decides not to do anything about that what influences the safety of at least half the isk floating around in the economy.
First you **** up T3 with removing the possibillity to eject during a fight, and now you also let us boil in the problems of posses.

Letting something boil causes an unbalance, and when it reaches a certain point it will have catasthopic consequenes for the family.

+1 ITS TIME FOR SOME POS LOVE
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1184 - 2013-01-17 17:02:45 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
CCP Gargant wrote:
It is good to hear that all of you are so heavily invested in the game, and specifically in things that need an overhaul. You guys still have passion for EVE and that in turn makes me more passionate for what I do here. Furthermore, it would appear that Two step, albeit being present at the CSM summit, seems to have misinterpreted what has been stated so far. That said, I want to bring three quotes from the CSM meeting minutes to your attention:

From page 19:

"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "

From page 99:

"Seagull: We have 4 things that are interacting [regarding the POSes]: the gameplay and design of the POS system, the role POSes play in achieving things in the game (its features), the technical layer (code) then manages all of this (which currently is old and needs refactoring), and art. Regarding art, there is the question of do you want to redo the art, do you want to show individual modules (as opposed to have things inside, like a station), and then you have technical issues, such as what does the rendering complexity of a scene do to client performance?"

"Seagull: The reason there's a “no” to doing [Modular POSes] right now is that it was affecting all of these areas in a way that was too big to do at once. What you're trying to do is try to find a way to get what you want, but what we need to do is go back and look at how we can separate all these layers, and figure out something reasonable, and then have Art do something that's immersive and amazing."

Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention. Many of you have already pointed out that it is painful to use at best, a huge pile of unusable dingleberries at worst. Some talk about this being the "old" CCP appearing again but I want to assure all of you that the mistakes that happened in 2011 will not repeat themselves. CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE

I can't make promises for game designers or the people that make content for EVE Online. Please try to remember that. What I can do is assure you that your voices have been heard, the opinion of the CSM has been heard, and the concerns raised in this thread have been heard.


Gargant: That makes this a case of poor messaging on the part of Unifex then, or perhaps a legitimate misunderstanding of just how important the POS revamp is to just how many players. Please do us a favor and bring this thread to his attention, so that it's clear that the number of players it would affect is not small, but in fact very large. Perhaps more importantly within your new development strategy, that very large group of players comes from all walks of life. Thank you.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
soomon
Duty. Joint Harvesting
Brave United
#1185 - 2013-01-17 17:02:46 UTC
ccp please fix the pos system it makes the evelife really hard...
Foo Chan
Sparks Inc
#1186 - 2013-01-17 17:03:12 UTC
So..

We are a small corp but still would like to be able to keep everyone's assets safe while granting POS access.
Its simply stupid to recruit people and grant them any kind of access. Its almost all or nothing on a POS.


59 pages of replies here today .. and still going...



I'd say the POS management system is VERY relevant for players!


Yes, I can build that.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#1187 - 2013-01-17 17:03:13 UTC  |  Edited by: silens vesica
CCP Gargant wrote:


Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention. Many of you have already pointed out that it is painful to use at best, a huge pile of unusable dingleberries at worst. Some talk about this being the "old" CCP appearing again but I want to assure all of you that the mistakes that happened in 2011 will not repeat themselves. CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE

We don't ask that it happen all at once. We just want it started. NOW. No more delays. We'll gratefully accept it when it's done (even if done in pieces) - IF we're not first alienated by excessive delays in commencing.

Sooner begun, sooner finished.
Carry on.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Sedilis
Lead Farmers
#1188 - 2013-01-17 17:03:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Sedilis
@CCP Gargant

Thank you for your response.

We've waited a very long time for improvements to POS. Frankly we expect to see some of them this year. And the CSM notes give the impression that is not going to happen.

Some reassurance that it is being worked on is all we want. That its not just on some list of nice to haves that maybe next year maybe the year after that.

And saying we were not worth the time was a terrible mistakeX
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#1189 - 2013-01-17 17:03:41 UTC
Post.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Drosal Inkunen
Spreadsheeters
#1190 - 2013-01-17 17:04:12 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:
It is good to hear that all of you are so heavily invested in the game, and specifically in things that need an overhaul. You guys still have passion for EVE and that in turn makes me more passionate for what I do here. Furthermore, it would appear that Two step, albeit being present at the CSM summit, seems to have misinterpreted what has been stated so far. That said, I want to bring three quotes from the CSM meeting minutes to your attention:

From page 19:

"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "

From page 99:

"Seagull: We have 4 things that are interacting [regarding the POSes]: the gameplay and design of the POS system, the role POSes play in achieving things in the game (its features), the technical layer (code) then manages all of this (which currently is old and needs refactoring), and art. Regarding art, there is the question of do you want to redo the art, do you want to show individual modules (as opposed to have things inside, like a station), and then you have technical issues, such as what does the rendering complexity of a scene do to client performance?"

"Seagull: The reason there's a “no” to doing [Modular POSes] right now is that it was affecting all of these areas in a way that was too big to do at once. What you're trying to do is try to find a way to get what you want, but what we need to do is go back and look at how we can separate all these layers, and figure out something reasonable, and then have Art do something that's immersive and amazing."

Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention. Many of you have already pointed out that it is painful to use at best, a huge pile of unusable dingleberries at worst. Some talk about this being the "old" CCP appearing again but I want to assure all of you that the mistakes that happened in 2011 will not repeat themselves. CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE

I can't make promises for game designers or the people that make content for EVE Online. Please try to remember that. What I can do is assure you that your voices have been heard, the opinion of the CSM has been heard, and the concerns raised in this thread have been heard.


While it was never said it wouldn't be done, it was mentioned to be a lower priority because it doesn't affect as many people.

I think one of the bigger issues here is that "fixes to the POS system" are mixed in with the "modular POS"
From reading through the thread it seems people care more about the POS system being fixed as a whole than they care about a modular POS.

My largest problems with the POS system, for example, are the permissions and lack of control that makes living in a wormhole hard.
Reikoku Ao
High Seas Empire
#1191 - 2013-01-17 17:04:34 UTC
Thank you for your reply, Gargant. What you're saying sounds reasonable to me. I'm looking forward to seeing what shape the POS will get in the summer expansion and beyond Smile
David Zahavi
Doomheim
#1192 - 2013-01-17 17:04:56 UTC  |  Edited by: David Zahavi
Either A) Revamp the POS system, or B) come out with an entirely new functionality or groups of functions that provide the same necessary roles.

The current version cannot continue. If you do it right, you could have an entire expansion focusing on an updated POS revamp.

Manufacturing all the various parts would be involved, you could have them made with new materials, so the miners are involved, these materials could be both easy to get materials in high sec (for newer players).

For the more advanced modules you could have some very rare materials only found in sov null in highly upgraded systems, in a place that would encourage pvp.

Wormholers will be so giddy with a new system, I don't even think you'd have to throw them a bone, just let them refit their T3s and they'll be happy, though if you wanted you could include them in some other way as well.

I don't see how everyone can't win from a POS revamp.

I don't even work for you guys and I've already come up with a way to include everyone in the game, and I only spent maybe 3 minutes putting this together.

Think of all the amazing possibilities available to you when you combine the powers of all of your employees creativity. Please for the sake of all that is good in EVE, revamp the pos system.

I can guarantee it will improve the quality of life for ALL of your instigators. And if done right, will help more players interact with the POS system than are even allowed to currently because of roles. Suddenly new emergent game play is possible!

Not only that, but it should free up the time of many of your "instigators" creating yet even more opportunities for emergent gameplay. See how this could only be good?
Rengerel en Distel
#1193 - 2013-01-17 17:05:24 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:
It is good to hear that all of you are so heavily invested in the game, and specifically in things that need an overhaul. You guys still have passion for EVE and that in turn makes me more passionate for what I do here. Furthermore, it would appear that Two step, albeit being present at the CSM summit, seems to have misinterpreted what has been stated so far. That said, I want to bring three quotes from the CSM meeting minutes to your attention:

From page 19:

"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "

From page 99:

"Seagull: We have 4 things that are interacting [regarding the POSes]: the gameplay and design of the POS system, the role POSes play in achieving things in the game (its features), the technical layer (code) then manages all of this (which currently is old and needs refactoring), and art. Regarding art, there is the question of do you want to redo the art, do you want to show individual modules (as opposed to have things inside, like a station), and then you have technical issues, such as what does the rendering complexity of a scene do to client performance?"

"Seagull: The reason there's a “no” to doing [Modular POSes] right now is that it was affecting all of these areas in a way that was too big to do at once. What you're trying to do is try to find a way to get what you want, but what we need to do is go back and look at how we can separate all these layers, and figure out something reasonable, and then have Art do something that's immersive and amazing."

Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention. Many of you have already pointed out that it is painful to use at best, a huge pile of unusable dingleberries at worst. Some talk about this being the "old" CCP appearing again but I want to assure all of you that the mistakes that happened in 2011 will not repeat themselves. CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE

I can't make promises for game designers or the people that make content for EVE Online. Please try to remember that. What I can do is assure you that your voices have been heard, the opinion of the CSM has been heard, and the concerns raised in this thread have been heard.

You'll have to forgive us when we've heard the same thing time and again, and yet time and again, same old :CCP: shows up at the last minute. You say the overhaul cannot happen all at once, which is fine, but you've been talking about modular POS design for nearly a year. There was talk that there were already prototypes made. That seems to indicate works has been continuing on it for nearly a year, which is not "ALL AT ONCE".
It appears more like the CSM said, every time they go to a summit, there's a new team in charge and a new "vision" that everyone has to work with for the next 6 months or year until that team is replaced. Corp management was going to be fixed, then totally dropped from the summit, because CCP said they weren't going to work on it. Now modular POS is being put off because it'll take up too much time.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Patrick Baboli
Mad Science Union Local 42
#1194 - 2013-01-17 17:07:31 UTC
well that is awesome, the thing got bigg enough that i got a "we were ganked" messege from the site, and we got dev response. also the people who make up the bulk of this thread have had less than 24 hours on this, gargant you where able to have this on hand for longer than us players right?Lol
Tridgit
Iron.Guard
Fraternity.
#1195 - 2013-01-17 17:07:38 UTC
POS Change is needed.
Ravik Scrits
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1196 - 2013-01-17 17:08:00 UTC
signed
Tobias Checkov
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1197 - 2013-01-17 17:08:13 UTC
Did anyone ever play Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald?
If so you may know where I'm going with this...


For those who don't know, in the mentioned Pokemon games it was possible to use a move called Hidden Power on areas of the map. There were an abundance of locations and types of locations (trees, caves etc.) and using Hidden Power revealed....

....dun da da duhhhh

*A Secret Base!*


So now imagine a similar mechanic, you're scanning randomly because you're bored and you see a weird blip on the edge of the system. You refine the signal, warp to it and behold...an abandoned small outpost. Lacking shields and any security, you quickly renovate it to be a respectable place to store your useless crap.

OR

You find yourself mining in a site you've scanned down and find an asteroid you've never seen before...it appears to be completely made of.....just rock?...you hollow the bloody thing out, whack a door and some shielding on it and once again you have yourself a Secret Base!

Idea theft aside, I think this is a great idea (not just because I thought of it) because it opens up a whole new concept that can be explored by CCP as a mechanic and will draw attention from the wider player base, I feel, as a counter to the whole: "Not alot of people are into Poses" thing, which is a fair enough statement however.

Additionally, you could have special roles with different types of bases. Abandoned outposts could have an ability to provide some sort of system scanning mechanic, decrepit ship yards could be refusbished to become your latest production line, the asteriod you just dug out could fit a permanent foreman buff to you and your buddies in system.

I reckon there's a ton of different ways to take this. As a contrast though I can easily see it requiring new items, in-game models. sounds and effects, mechanic tweaking and design in general but I think it would be well worth it.


Also: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Secret_base
John Dowland
Lame Pheasant Gecko Squad
#1198 - 2013-01-17 17:08:17 UTC
The article on TheMittani.com said it best:

Quote:
"The first is that that "small group" are the instigators and enablers that CCP Seagull wants to start building content for. Those are exactly the sorts of players who put up and maintain POS. Because they do what they do for other players, anything that helps them has a disproportionately large effect. Therefore, while they might be a small group themselves, labeling such actions as "not worth it" because they're a small group and because it would "only help them" is the height of folly."


Perhaps your own "Butterfly Effect" trailer will help you understand.
Spacing Cowboy
Perkone
Caldari State
#1199 - 2013-01-17 17:08:17 UTC
x for POS revamp.


Sugestion... to save the pain in ccp-ass / code stuff.


Build new pos'es.. modular.. shiny ... real cool and stuff, something usefull and does not give
the logi boys / pos slaves so much pain in the royal ass
( dont forget the industrie guys also, invention.. yadieyadie )

Do it.. but let it exist right next to the old towers...
Go all wild.. ect..

Then, when everything works.. intregrated in the sov , ect.. slowly you can phase out the old tower,
as they will just be replaced or rebuild..

Then kill off the old POS code...
AutumnWind1983
Reboot Required
#1200 - 2013-01-17 17:08:52 UTC
CCP Gargant wrote:
It is good to hear that all of you are so heavily invested in the game, and specifically in things that need an overhaul. You guys still have passion for EVE and that in turn makes me more passionate for what I do here. Furthermore, it would appear that Two step, albeit being present at the CSM summit, seems to have misinterpreted what has been stated so far. That said, I want to bring three quotes from the CSM meeting minutes to your attention:

From page 19:

"Unifex: Once we have a theme, we can begin to thread the issues you've identified as needing to be prioritized into that theme. POS's, for example, desperately need some improvement. How do we fit that work into our theme? Maybe we don't do all of the modular POS work at once, but we start by making some modules, solving the hangar problem, for instance. But that new hangar module would also exist to support other new activities as part of the themed expansion. "

From page 99:

"Seagull: We have 4 things that are interacting [regarding the POSes]: the gameplay and design of the POS system, the role POSes play in achieving things in the game (its features), the technical layer (code) then manages all of this (which currently is old and needs refactoring), and art. Regarding art, there is the question of do you want to redo the art, do you want to show individual modules (as opposed to have things inside, like a station), and then you have technical issues, such as what does the rendering complexity of a scene do to client performance?"

"Seagull: The reason there's a “no” to doing [Modular POSes] right now is that it was affecting all of these areas in a way that was too big to do at once. What you're trying to do is try to find a way to get what you want, but what we need to do is go back and look at how we can separate all these layers, and figure out something reasonable, and then have Art do something that's immersive and amazing."

Nowhere has CCP stated that the Player Owned Structure system will not receive attention. Many of you have already pointed out that it is painful to use at best, a huge pile of unusable dingleberries at worst. Some talk about this being the "old" CCP appearing again but I want to assure all of you that the mistakes that happened in 2011 will not repeat themselves. CCP has only stated that THE OVERHAUL CANNOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE

I can't make promises for game designers or the people that make content for EVE Online. Please try to remember that. What I can do is assure you that your voices have been heard, the opinion of the CSM has been heard, and the concerns raised in this thread have been heard.



The fact that you're the one responding and not Seagull speaks magnitudes. The fact that CCP as a company does not realize how badly this is being receiving and what a mess they have created is incomprehensible to me.

I have three active accounts and will be changing the autorenew function to off. I doubt I'll be the first, last or only to do so.

James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org