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reactive armor hardener usage

Author
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
#1 - 2013-01-16 12:18:03 UTC
Hi.

I would like to know if there is any pilot out there using reactive armor hardener? What ship and what kind of activity would you use such module?

The reason I am asking is that I am struggling to find any usage for this module. As T1 module I dont expect it to be especially useful. But T2 variant is not in EvE and somehow I feel CCP does not plan to introduce one soon.

This module is very overshadowed by EANM. in PvE in high sec you are not expected to lose a ship. For low SP character active hardener against specific at is always better. And frankly C-type EANM gives the same resistance bonus as reactive armor hardener against 2 damage type (most rats deal 2 damage types) and uses no capacitor.

For PvP reasonable expectation is 3 damage types incoming (with few exception in the Caldari line). Most ships will have 2 damage types turrets + drones of different damage type. In this scenario the hardener will give 20% resistant bonus which is exactly same as T1 EANM with lvl5 compensation skills or T2 EANM without any skills.

So where is the gap for reactive armor hardener? If there is none, how would you modify its stats to make it viable?
AGSeeker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-01-16 12:36:41 UTC  |  Edited by: AGSeeker
The reactive hardener resistance bonus doesn't stack with the bonus from EANM or acive hardeners, as far as I know.
But you have to deal with higher incoming damage, but after the reactive hardener is adjusted to the damqge types, its doing well.

I use one for rogue drone missions.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-01-16 12:53:18 UTC
Yep its all to do with stacking, they're very useful for long missions with multiple rooms. By the time you get to the last (and normally hardest) room you have great resists against that specific dmg.

No Worries

Moonasha
Orcses and Goblinz
#4 - 2013-01-16 13:16:40 UTC
In my experience, even with the cycle time of 10 seconds, the bonuses max out very fast. Two hardeners + reactive is slightly less HP than 4 hardeners, but frees up a low slot. Basically, in a situation where the fight lasts less time than the hardener maxes, you shouldn't have even had to turn your rep on, unless you agro'd an entire room like an idiot
Bigg Gun
T.I.E. Inc.
#5 - 2013-01-16 13:26:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Bigg Gun
Strictly pve speaking why would you ever use armor tank? The only 3 exceptions I can think of are the 2 armor marauders and the typhoon. The purpose of most mission boats is to kill stuff fast. If you want to do this effectively you'd stuff your lows with damage mods and then dps the crap out of every target. Just saying.
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-01-16 13:26:42 UTC
AGSeeker wrote:
The reactive hardener resistance bonus doesn't stack with the bonus from EANM or acive hardeners, as far as I know. But you have to deal with higher incoming damage, but after the reactive hardener is adjusted to the damqge types, its doing well.

This is incorrect. The reactive hardener is stacking penalized with damage control units only, not active or passive armor hardener modules. It works well for odd-slot tanks, where you don't have the luxury of stacking four specific hardeners. It can also let you avoid swapping hardeners at all, if you stack your omni resists reasonably high and even; the reactive hardener will give you whatever specific types you need on top of your base resists then. The T1 module is a bit weak, but we can expect that the T2 version, when it comes out, will deliver 20% higher resist values, which will make it quite good (you'll need Hull Upgrades V to mount it, based on how the T1 is skilled now). The only downside of it is it can be somewhat cap hungry, and you will probably want to train Armor Resistance Phasing to III or IV to make it adapt quicker.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?

AGSeeker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-01-16 13:32:30 UTC
I think I forgot something... the reactive hardner only adjusts to damge done to the armor.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#8 - 2013-01-16 13:35:08 UTC
I have the skill maxed and use it on most of my PVP fits now in place of a resist-hole filling hardener, along with EANM IIs and DCU II. Or on the Proteus in addition to EM+EXP holecovers, faction EANM and DCUII resulting in a proper Boss Tank ready for anything.

Consider a fit with two EANM IIs and a normal hardener. They are all stacked, resulting in only about 57% efficiency from the third mod. The stacked active hardener is still slightly ahead of a 30% adapted RAH (especially if you heat the normal hardener), but the normal hardener is a complete waste of a slot if you are not receiving that damage type at all.

I'm very happy with this trade-off, as like you said- you normally receive at least 2 damage types.

And it's better than third EANM II (base 15% vs triple-stacked 20%)

It seems to handle heating very well (at least @ Thermo V :P) so the adaptation happens surprisingly quickly, and the reduction is easy to notice from the new damage notification stream.

Danger lies in damage types switching in mid-fight, you need to reset it immediately when your opponent switches ammo. This requires extra attention, but again, the new dmg notif stream is very helpful. I have placed it right above target icons so it's very visible all the time.

tl,dr; it's damn nice on ships that have the buffer (or active tank) and suitable low slot layout. There are situations where you would be better off with an active hardener, but I practically never know what I'll meet in space when I warp out of the POS, and very often fight single opponents.

.

AGSeeker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-01-16 13:38:28 UTC  |  Edited by: AGSeeker
Freighdee Katt wrote:
AGSeeker wrote:
The reactive hardener resistance bonus doesn't stack with the bonus from EANM or acive hardeners, as far as I know. But you have to deal with higher incoming damage, but after the reactive hardener is adjusted to the damqge types, its doing well.

This is incorrect. The reactive hardener is stacking penalized with damage control units only, not active or passive armor hardener modules. It works well for odd-slot tanks, where you don't have the luxury of stacking four specific hardeners. It can also let you avoid swapping hardeners at all, if you stack your omni resists reasonably high and even; the reactive hardener will give you whatever specific types you need on top of your base resists then. The T1 module is a bit weak, but we can expect that the T2 version, when it comes out, will deliver 20% higher resist values, which will make it quite good (you'll need Hull Upgrades V to mount it, based on how the T1 is skilled now). The only downside of it is it can be somewhat cap hungry, and you will probably want to train Armor Resistance Phasing to III or IV to make it adapt quicker.


Sorry, my fault. I forgot the word "penality" between resistance bonus and doesn't stack.

I should have been like this: "The reactive hardener resistance bonus penality doesn't stack with the penality from EANM or acive hardeners, as far as I know."

And sorry for my bad english. It's not my primary language.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#10 - 2013-01-16 14:09:58 UTC
No,

But thats not because it isn't good.. Its because Armor is crap.

The reactive hardener is actually a really good choice as 3rd res mod.

Great for the new proposed prophecy for example.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
#11 - 2013-01-16 14:15:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Shpenat
AGSeeker wrote:
I think I forgot something... the reactive hardner only adjusts to damge done to the armor.
Correct me if I'm wrong.


You are right. It does not start its adaptation until your shields are gone.

I know that reactive armor hardener is not stacking penalized against other resistance modules. But even when taking 2 specific hardeners + EANM/RAH into account, I get 30% from RAH and 25% out of C-type EANM. Is that 5-8% more resist worth it?
Moonasha
Orcses and Goblinz
#12 - 2013-01-16 14:33:28 UTC
Bigg Gun wrote:
Strictly pve speaking why would you ever use armor tank? The only 3 exceptions I can think of are the 2 armor marauders and the typhoon. The purpose of most mission boats is to kill stuff fast. If you want to do this effectively you'd stuff your lows with damage mods and then dps the crap out of every target. Just saying.


Abaddon with 25% resists and 25% damage says hi.
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
#13 - 2013-01-16 14:33:39 UTC
Roime wrote:
I have the skill maxed and use it on most of my PVP fits now in place of a resist-hole filling hardener, along with EANM IIs and DCU II. Or on the Proteus in addition to EM+EXP holecovers, faction EANM and DCUII resulting in a proper Boss Tank ready for anything.

Consider a fit with two EANM IIs and a normal hardener. They are all stacked, resulting in only about 57% efficiency from the third mod. The stacked active hardener is still slightly ahead of a 30% adapted RAH (especially if you heat the normal hardener), but the normal hardener is a complete waste of a slot if you are not receiving that damage type at all.

I'm very happy with this trade-off, as like you said- you normally receive at least 2 damage types.

And it's better than third EANM II (base 15% vs triple-stacked 20%)

It seems to handle heating very well (at least @ Thermo V :P) so the adaptation happens surprisingly quickly, and the reduction is easy to notice from the new damage notification stream.

Danger lies in damage types switching in mid-fight, you need to reset it immediately when your opponent switches ammo. This requires extra attention, but again, the new dmg notif stream is very helpful. I have placed it right above target icons so it's very visible all the time.

tl,dr; it's damn nice on ships that have the buffer (or active tank) and suitable low slot layout. There are situations where you would be better off with an active hardener, but I practically never know what I'll meet in space when I warp out of the POS, and very often fight single opponents.


This seems like a legitimate use. my tank usually consist of 2*T2 EANM + 1*T2 EXP hardener (gallente ships). From that explosive hardener I get 9% resistance when it is offline and 39% resistance when online. Given the situation of 3 damage types in PvP It is still imho better than 0% when offline and 20% online. Granted it also provides other resists. I will consider swapping that hardener for RAH.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#14 - 2013-01-16 14:34:02 UTC
Without checking the prices, I'd rather ask whether losing 5-8% is worth 100mil?



.

LordSpock
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-01-16 14:38:51 UTC
Shpenat wrote:
AGSeeker wrote:
I think I forgot something... the reactive hardner only adjusts to damge done to the armor.
Correct me if I'm wrong.


You are right. It does not start its adaptation until your shields are gone.

I know that reactive armor hardener is not stacking penalized against other resistance modules. But even when taking 2 specific hardeners + EANM/RAH into account, I get 30% from RAH and 25% out of C-type EANM. Is that 5-8% more resist worth it?


Well price wise and resistwise yes. And keep in mind I have seen values of 52% + 8% on the reactive one. So if you ask me it is worth it. One Sansha mission I even saw it switch to full EM with only a few BS rast left.


Bigg Gun wrote:
Strictly pve speaking why would you ever use armor tank? The only 3 exceptions I can think of are the 2 armor marauders and the typhoon. The purpose of most mission boats is to kill stuff fast. If you want to do this effectively you'd stuff your lows with damage mods and then dps the crap out of every target. Just saying.


How about Navy Geddon with Sentries? Where you put the Omnidirectionals?
How about Navy Domi with Sentries? Where you put the Omnidirectionals? Besides that, you have room on both ships for tank and 3 damagemods, when not fitting the reactive hardener I have room for a fourth DDA or a HS/MFS to give a little more punch to the fitted guns.
Don't get me started on Apoc, Hyperion, Abaddon.

Not all people fly the most expensive pirate faction BS to do their missions, so they are bound to whatever a faction/navy has to offer.
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
#16 - 2013-01-16 14:39:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Shpenat
Roime wrote:
Without checking the prices, I'd rather ask whether losing 5-8% is worth 100mil?





huh? Neither explosive hardener nor EANM in T2 variant cost 100 millions

EDIT: My apology I was thinking you are replying to different post. Of coarse that is a valid concern. But the premise of high sec PvE is "never lose a ship".
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#17 - 2013-01-16 14:44:14 UTC
Dear OP,
I share your concerns and I took the reactive armor hardener out for a test run on my Deimos in a level 4 mission.

The mission was with Guristas so I had an active kinetic hardnener and that reactive hardener in the lows. And as soon as those Guristas started shooting down my shields I turned both hardeners on.
After 3 cycles of adapting I had an 98% resistance on kinetic and I could easily tank any incoming damge with pulsing my one rep every once in a while.
For you curiousity I didn't even bother with a plate on that fit and didn't use any of my cap boosters and I was using my mwd quite a lot there.

I know that this kind of situiation is very specific and I tested my fit with a corpmate and his Tengu against my tank and as soon as he changed his kinetic missiles to em my tank was falling apart with 78% em resistance.

My hope is that the reactive armor hardener gets a little cycle reduction and a tiny capacitor consumption reduction to compensate and when active armor tanking gets a huge "fozzification" we will see more usage of it in pvp and killboard statistics.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
#18 - 2013-01-16 14:59:44 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Dear OP,
I share your concerns and I took the reactive armor hardener out for a test run on my Deimos in a level 4 mission.

The mission was with Guristas so I had an active kinetic hardnener and that reactive hardener in the lows. And as soon as those Guristas started shooting down my shields I turned both hardeners on.
After 3 cycles of adapting I had an 98% resistance on kinetic and I could easily tank any incoming damge with pulsing my one rep every once in a while.
For you curiousity I didn't even bother with a plate on that fit and didn't use any of my cap boosters and I was using my mwd quite a lot there.

I know that this kind of situiation is very specific and I tested my fit with a corpmate and his Tengu against my tank and as soon as he changed his kinetic missiles to em my tank was falling apart with 78% em resistance.

My hope is that the reactive armor hardener gets a little cycle reduction and a tiny capacitor consumption reduction to compensate and when active armor tanking gets a huge "fozzification" we will see more usage of it in pvp and killboard statistics.


That is pretty much hat I am hoping for as hard core active armor tanker. I tested it against tengu and drake and this module really shines there. However those are only odd fights where you go against single damage types.

I personally would love to have this module affected by armor compensation skill where each lvl gives 1% to the passive resistance. so when offline it would give 5% resist bonus at lvl 5. When online it will give 5% base resist bonus + 15% shifting bonus (again assuming lvl 5 compensation skills).

T2 variant then can have its shifting bonus upgraded to 20%.
AGSeeker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-01-16 15:24:08 UTC
Shpenat wrote:
AGSeeker wrote:
I think I forgot something... the reactive hardner only adjusts to damge done to the armor.
Correct me if I'm wrong.


You are right. It does not start its adaptation until your shields are gone.

I know that reactive armor hardener is not stacking penalized against other resistance modules. But even when taking 2 specific hardeners + EANM/RAH into account, I get 30% from RAH and 25% out of C-type EANM. Is that 5-8% more resist worth it?


I think we should compare the reactive armor hardener to t1 EANM/Specific Hardeners, cause there isn't a T2, Faction, Deadspace or Officer RAH jet (maybe there will never be one).

The RAH is at the moment more cost effective than the C-type EANM, in my opinion.

Maybe if there will be a T2 RAH, they push the combined resistance to 80% (20% each initially). But they may have to make a cap of max 60% per damage type then.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#20 - 2013-01-16 15:54:14 UTC
The armor phasing skill is still a weird one. With more skill, the cap per second consumption of the module actually goes up. Which should be obvious because the skill improves cycle time by 10% but cap consumption by 5%.

The base function of the module: 42 cap per cycle, 10 second cycle = 4.2 cap per second
rank 1 skill 42(.95) / 9 second cycle = 4.43 cap per second
rank 5 42(.75) / 5 = 6.3 cap per second

This is cap consumption higher than large pulse turrets. So mission runners, have fun maxing out that cycle time I guess, with the higher cap consumption for the rest of the mission.
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