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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1221 - 2013-01-15 20:47:22 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The problem is not the hull, it when it becomes better to buff the secondary weapons of the ship rather than primary weapon. You would be laughed at if you put 2 bcu on a stabber and only one gyro.


Drone bonused ships aren't always using drones as the 'primary' weapon.

Well that is the problem.


Dominix is about 50/50. There are others, like ishkur and vexor.

Dominix Neutron blasters 601DPS Drones 475DPS.
Vexor Neutron Blasters 280DPS Drones 314DPS
Ishkur Neutron Blasters 175DPS Drones 99DPS

I don't call any of that 50/50


Your numbers are off, and they're not far off 50/50 anyway, considering that blasters are going to do more paper since they're extreme short range.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#1222 - 2013-01-15 20:49:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Inkarr Hashur
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The problem is not the hull, it when it becomes better to buff the secondary weapons of the ship rather than primary weapon. You would be laughed at if you put 2 bcu on a stabber and only one gyro.


Drone bonused ships aren't always using drones as the 'primary' weapon.

Well that is the problem.


Dominix is about 50/50. There are others, like ishkur and vexor.

Dominix Neutron blasters 601DPS Drones 475DPS.
Vexor Neutron Blasters 280DPS Drones 314DPS
Ishkur Neutron Blasters 175DPS Drones 99DPS

I don't call any of that 50/50

All perfectly functional ships. Like the Myrmidon

Heck the Ishkur doesn't even get a drone DAMAGE bonus but no one's complaining about him.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1223 - 2013-01-15 20:49:57 UTC
Then please fix my numbers, no fitting Max skills ect...

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1224 - 2013-01-15 20:51:26 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:

All perfectly functional ships. Like the Myrmidon

When did I ever say other were disfunctional ships?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1225 - 2013-01-15 20:52:58 UTC
I don't even get what we're talking about. I'm here to say how **** drones are, not whether their proportional damage is too high or low compared to the other weapons on the ships they're used in.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#1226 - 2013-01-15 20:56:14 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Inkarr Hashur wrote:

All perfectly functional ships. Like the Myrmidon

When did I ever say other were disfunctional ships?

Well I guess I'm no longer sure what I'm arguing against anymore. Originally I responded to someone claiming Ogres were broken or something. Then it became a discussion about how the Myrm needed help. But there's been more arguments counter to that in this thread while the supportive arguments went away. So I no longer have anything to argue against.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1227 - 2013-01-15 21:00:02 UTC
i believe we are all on the same page that dones need a major overhaul, but we are all looking at things form different angles.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#1228 - 2013-01-15 21:06:50 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
i believe we are all on the same page that dones need a major overhaul, but we are all looking at things form different angles.


I think the capabilities of Heavy Drones versus Sentry Drones in general needs another serious look. And drones need a new UI built from scratch. The racial differences might bear another look. Maybe not.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#1229 - 2013-01-15 21:10:43 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Aglais wrote:
Cyclone should keep it's RoF bonus. Make it the 'DPS' missile boat.


The Cyclone will be the mobile missile BC, it shouldn't be the DPSy one too.


I'll clarify. It may do similar (or slightly inferior) damage compared to the Drake. The Cyclone's launchers would not be damage bonused and pack less of a punch than the Drake's but make up for it by firing faster to not fall behind. The Drake meanwhile does not fire as fast, but hits much harder. Something to that extent.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1230 - 2013-01-15 21:15:33 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Aglais wrote:
Cyclone should keep it's RoF bonus. Make it the 'DPS' missile boat.


The Cyclone will be the mobile missile BC, it shouldn't be the DPSy one too.


I'll clarify. It may do similar (or slightly inferior) damage compared to the Drake. The Cyclone's launchers would not be damage bonused and pack less of a punch than the Drake's but make up for it by firing faster to not fall behind. The Drake meanwhile does not fire as fast, but hits much harder. Something to that extent.

The cyclone shines with the ROF bouns as it affects all damage types, where the drake is restricted to kinetic damage only, so i agree the cyclone should keep the ROF bouns.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Norrin Ellis
Doomheim
#1231 - 2013-01-15 21:34:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Norrin Ellis
Disregarding for a moment the fact that drones are a terrible weapon system since Retribution, I'm curious why the Amarr get the best drone boat in the class. Whatever happened to the Gallente being drone specialists?

Armor resist bonus is vastly superior to an armor repair effectiveness bonus. The Prophecy can carry 3 full max. bandwidth flights of drones, while the Myrmidon gets only 1.75 flights at max. bandwidth. Prophecy has options for supplemental weapons, while the Myrmidon is locked into hybrid turrets.

The Prophecy is a drone boat that is essentially immune to energy neutralizing effects (missiles / resist bonuses / huge swarm of drones), while the Myrmidon is heavily cap dependent (active tank / [most likely] blasters) with too few drones to offset the handicap.

Do you guys just sit around thinking up ways that you can gimp the Federation in its alleged area of expertise?

CEO, Venture Racing

Manager, EVE Online Hold'Em
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1232 - 2013-01-15 21:40:28 UTC
The Myrmidon is not locked into hybrid turrets

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1233 - 2013-01-15 21:46:53 UTC
Norrin Ellis wrote:
Disregarding for a moment the fact that drones are a terrible weapon system since Retribution, I'm curious why the Amarr get the best drone boat in the class. Whatever happened to the Gallente being drone specialists?

Armor resist bonus is vastly superior to an armor repair effectiveness bonus. The Prophecy can carry 3 full max. bandwidth flights of drones, while the Myrmidon gets only 1.75 flights at max. bandwidth. Prophecy has options for supplemental weapons, while the Myrmidon is locked into hybrid turrets.

The Prophecy is a drone boat that is essentially immune to energy neutralizing effects (missiles / resist bonuses / huge swarm of drones), while the Myrmidon is heavily cap dependent (active tank / [most likely] blasters) with too few drones to offset the handicap.

Do you guys just sit around thinking up ways that you can gimp the Federation in its alleged area of expertise?



ACs fit better, keep running after you cap out 20s into the fight, have better range and can choose damage type. They're more common than hybrids on myrmidons, I think. Not that what people typically fit is important.
Norrin Ellis
Doomheim
#1234 - 2013-01-15 21:49:08 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The Myrmidon is not locked into hybrid turrets

Pardon my oversight there. I forgot that everyone pretty much fits the Winmatar weapons (projectiles) on everything.

CEO, Venture Racing

Manager, EVE Online Hold'Em
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#1235 - 2013-01-15 22:11:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Inkarr Hashur
Myrmidon has more room for a capacitor boosters than prophecy does. To additionally counter the cap dependence argument brought up earlier as if the projectile turret argument didn't do that too.
Mund Richard
#1236 - 2013-01-15 23:51:13 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
Myrmidon has more room for a capacitor boosters than prophecy does. To additionally counter the cap dependence argument brought up earlier as if the projectile turret argument didn't do that too.
I do agree with the projectile argument.
With your last one, less so.
Proph can also fit projectiles/HAMs, has 4 mids that are the minimum for a PvP trinity and the Cap Booster, and has more lows for tank+gank, not to mention the best tank bonus in game, thus either using less cap, or repping more for the same number of reps - if you want to set it up so, with a DC or extra EAMN, and still have room for a plate.

Maybe it cannot supply 3 reppers that easily (or at all), but a Myrm has only 3 lows left then, with two the Proph still has 5.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
General Foom
Foomonopoly
#1237 - 2013-01-16 01:14:10 UTC
I think we just need to cross our fingers and hope Fozzie does something about active armor

ASB's were a stab at addressing active shield tanks

so it follows armor is next?

having active armor reps that are competitive against there buffer cousins would increase build diversity
and make ships with active bonuses good at the same time ....

CCP Fozzie wrote:


What about armor tanking? The imbalances caused by the mass of plates, the speed penalty on armor rigs and the weakness of armor reps in pvp situations are a problem that becomes more pronounced for these ships than for any of the smaller classes and should be fixed as soon as possible!

I completely agree. ~Working on it~. However since we want to be very careful about what we promise and when that's all I can say at this exact moment.


i believe hes hinted at it already
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#1238 - 2013-01-16 02:32:36 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
i believe we are all on the same page that dones need a major overhaul, but we are all looking at things form different angles.


I think the capabilities of Heavy Drones versus Sentry Drones in general needs another serious look. And drones need a new UI built from scratch. The racial differences might bear another look. Maybe not.



I have to disagree with you on your feeling that Heavy Drone speed is fine. Ogres are so slow as to be useless unless the target is:
1) BS sized or larger (granted, this is what they are designed for)
2) Webbed / scrammed
3) The drones are dropped off very close by so no travel time is needed.


I do agree with you that Heavy vs Sentry needs work. However, I also feel all of the drones except a select few (warrior II's, for example) need adjustments in speed, signature, mwd speed, combat speed, tracking, etc.

I also agree that a whole new UI is needed for them.

~Z

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Dewgong
Order of the Black Dagger
#1239 - 2013-01-16 05:03:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Dewgong
Quote:
Heck the Ishkur doesn't even get a drone DAMAGE bonus but no one's complaining about him.


That's the thing though, at the Frigate level, drones have a bigger impact by just being out there than compared to BC tiers. A normal flight of lights are deadly to frigs, just like mediums can be deadly to cruisers, but once you get to the BC level, Mediums aren't too much to deal with. It's like a fly buzzing near your ear the whole time. The Ishkur doesn't even need a drone damage bonus. It would be borderline OP if it had one.

Even with a damage bonus, when you got BCs that can either tank through it or out run mediums, it's ********. Sure, you got EWAR drones of various sorts, but honestly, a drone boat can't afford to use them unless you give it extra drones to control or something else.

Hell, give the Proph the ability to fit Drone control units (at most two).
Luc Chastot
#1240 - 2013-01-16 06:55:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Luc Chastot
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The problem is not the hull, it when it becomes better to buff the secondary weapons of the ship rather than primary weapon. You would be laughed at if you put 2 bcu on a stabber and only one gyro.


Drone bonused ships aren't always using drones as the 'primary' weapon.

Well that is the problem.


Dominix is about 50/50. There are others, like ishkur and vexor.

Dominix Neutron blasters 601DPS Drones 475DPS.
Vexor Neutron Blasters 280DPS Drones 314DPS
Ishkur Neutron Blasters 175DPS Drones 99DPS

I don't call any of that 50/50


All lvl 5. If you specialize in drones, you will logically have more sp in drones than gunnnery, so the gap will be larger even though the numbers will be lower.

Neutron Blaster Cannon II x 6 (Void) 562dps
Ogre II x 5 793dps

The ratio is 3:2, or 60% dps coming from drones and 40% from guns.

Edit: However, if you DO NOT fit DDAs, guns do slightly more damage than drones. Same if you fit the same number of MagStabs as DDAs.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.