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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1101 - 2013-01-13 22:44:39 UTC
ccp,killing pvp,a little,each day.if the new cyclone sucks in pvp i`m gonna ask for skillpoints back.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#1102 - 2013-01-13 23:49:22 UTC
People liked frigate and cruiser balancing because it made a bunch of awful, useless ships useful. People won't like battle cruiser balancing because it makes a bunch of useful ships awful.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1103 - 2013-01-14 00:13:24 UTC
Or, if we want to be less dramatic, it's given (mostly) small buffs to ships that needed it and mostly small nerfs to ships that needed them, with the real loser (harbinger) being looked at further, all of which is decidedly less significant a change than useless ships being made useful.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1104 - 2013-01-14 01:48:38 UTC
Lots of people believe tier 2 battlecruisers are perfect and doesn't understand why they have to be rebalanced. These people forget or never experienced how tier 2 battlecruisers made frigates, cruisers and battleships obsolete in most pvp situations and embrace their current "one shipclass must rule them all" balance (T3 cruisers aside).

Rebalancing will give the game a more diverse game play and even though it doesn't look like CCP got sober after their new year celebration I am sure the battlecruisers will soon be exciting and rewarding to fly even though they will not be as tough as before. Im sure they are working overtime to make all 8 battlecruisers exciting and not just change a few of them...

I could ofcouse be wrong. Maybe they don't want to take the oportunity to create 8 unique and interesting ships when they can cut a corner and only change a few while cutting shields down. But they have done a great job with cruisers so I doubt that...

Pinky
Bobodahobo Dahobos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1105 - 2013-01-14 01:56:16 UTC
Twisted how about leaving the ships the way they are, if you wanna change constantly just add new ships,LEAVE THE VSHIPS AS THEY ARE!!!!!!!!!!!!
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1106 - 2013-01-14 02:05:03 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Lots of people believe tier 2 battlecruisers are perfect and doesn't understand why they have to be rebalanced. These people forget or never experienced how tier 2 battlecruisers made frigates, cruisers and battleships obsolete in most pvp situations and embrace their current "one shipclass must rule them all" balance (T3 cruisers aside).

I suspect that those "lots of people" who thought Tier 2 BCs were perfect probably also didn't even know the harbinger or myrmidon existed. Blink

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Mund Richard
#1107 - 2013-01-14 02:06:34 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Lots of people believe tier 2 battlecruisers are perfect and doesn't understand why they have to be rebalanced. These people forget or never experienced how tier 2 battlecruisers made frigates, cruisers and battleships obsolete in most pvp situations and embrace their current "one shipclass must rule them all" balance (T3 cruisers aside).

I suspect that those "lots of people" who thought Tier 2 BCs were perfect probably also didn't even know the harbinger or myrmidon existed. Blink

Oh, sure they did!
Those were the ships that were ALSO perfectly fine, specially with active armor tanking.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#1108 - 2013-01-14 03:29:01 UTC
Tier 2 battlecruisers have done wonders for new players and regular pvpers.
Cheap relative fast ships with near battleship dps at very affordable prices.
Ofcourse people like them, and I had fun too :-)

But you surely must have noticed the absense of cruisers (and other shiptypes like tier 1 BC and battleships) in nearly all pvp scenarios? Basically you could ask yourself a lot of questions and tier 2 battlecruisers would be the answer to 8/10 - Im glad Eve is going through tiericide and bringing back versatility. I just hope more work is put into ship bonuses and slot layout than the initial BC thoughts as it's a wonderfull chance.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#1109 - 2013-01-14 04:20:19 UTC
Super disappointed. The frig and cruiser changes got me wet, but this is the opposite.

Myrmidon and brutix: are the same basically. The extra Low is nice for the brutix but it's still just a bad Talos. The Myrm is the Myrm. No real difference.

Cyclone: Another minmatar double utility hi-slot? Didn't you learn after the debacle of the stabber? (remember, the worst cruiser at its role in the game now?)
Hurricane: Just another nerf. Although gz on taking a hi-slot instead of a low.

Drake: Still racial damage bonus. Half your ships have it half don't. Decide which its going to be and do it.
Ferox: Whoever wanted to make it different from the Naga succeeded. Now it's super awful and the naga isn't. Why would you even fly one when the drake tanks and DPS's better than it and from better range? And the naga out-snipes it so its still a pointless ship.

Prophecy: I'm intrigued, it's a vexor but tanky...
Harbinger: Same as above, it's an oracle with more slots and worse damage/range. Drone defence for frigs is nice, but it needs it since it can't alpha-strike frigs like an oracle.

You guys really didn't think this one through that well tbh. Split them into 2 roles like cruisers. Tier 3's will always be faster, have more dps and more range but there is room in there for other stuff, like Tanking bonuses (already sorted) and TACKLE/EWAR BONUSES. I'd like to see a hurricane with 7.5% ROF on guns and a web range bonus, maybe a ferox that has an ECM bonus. A Brutix with scram range bonus. The harb with TD bonuses maybe? Or maybe the proph would suit that better tbh.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#1110 - 2013-01-14 04:48:22 UTC
If you want to see more T1 BC's using link then make them:

A) Easy to fit
B) More powerful than T3 links (Nerfing T3 links is a good way of achieving this)
C) *Important* make fleet boosting limited range, similar to omni's for drone.
D) Reduce the ammount of training needed to effectively use links.

If BC's all had 1 link they specialised in combined with the above, you would see fleets of them each with 1 link fitted each. I know the skillpoint issue is by far the biggest hurdle for younger players, and forcer older players to train alt's. If leadership is easier to train people would be more inclined to skill for link and incorporate them into their fits.

Personally i'd like to be able to make use of links solo. And i mean *truely solo*. I want to jump into a gate-camp and turn my link on and start fighting, without other people around or in fleet. It's like giving BC's a third bonus that is completely unique to the fit they want. VERSATILITY!
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1111 - 2013-01-14 04:54:25 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
If you want to see more T1 BC's using link then make them:

A) Easy to fit
B) More powerful than T3 links (Nerfing T3 links is a good way of achieving this)
C) *Important* make fleet boosting limited range, similar to omni's for drone.
D) Reduce the ammount of training needed to effectively use links.

If BC's all had 1 link they specialised in combined with the above, you would see fleets of them each with 1 link fitted each. I know the skillpoint issue is by far the biggest hurdle for younger players, and forcer older players to train alt's. If leadership is easier to train people would be more inclined to skill for link and incorporate them into their fits.

Personally i'd like to be able to make use of links solo. And i mean *truely solo*. I want to jump into a gate-camp and turn my link on and start fighting, without other people around or in fleet. It's like giving BC's a third bonus that is completely unique to the fit they want. VERSATILITY!


Why would I buy the T3 for doing links for a billion isk if I can get a t1 battlecruiser to do just as good a job.
T3 = Versatility
T2= Specialization
T1= Cheap

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#1112 - 2013-01-14 05:34:13 UTC
fukier wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Did I miss why the Drone Battle Cruisers have one less slot than all the rest?

Other than the fact that this is standard practice for drone bonused ships?


they do that due the utility of drones... they can do anything... which is why you get one less slot...



Not when they only have enough drone bay for ONE flight of drones, and only ONE drone bonus (+damage).... they get 1 role... which is why they should get the same slots (or bonuses for other drone roles, and / or more drone bay).

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#1113 - 2013-01-14 05:55:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyella Stormborn
Mund Richard wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
At a MINIMUM, Gallente drone bays should be able to hold at least another flight of drones. Too often in a fight you have to warp out, and if you're only using drones for meaningful dps, then you're leaving lots of your dps on the field when you warp out---especially if those drones are SLOW Heavy drones.
Well, yea, my suggestion "solves" both:
Dessies go with lights, Cruiser/BC with mediums, and all gallente have precisely two (ok, so I'm hoping for 2.5 with the Myrm, but I *am* suggesting a paper dps nerf so please forgive meRoll), amarr three maxed flights, each translating into two smallers.
No odd flights, no missing an Ogre or Hobgoblin when you have only Hammerhead spares left in the bay.

Post at the top (yay, I got another first new page) now with math!



I would like to add, that Amarr drone boats should offer some kind of bonus to their 'other' drones as well. They are giving them these huge drone bays (I am not complaining, its nice to have options in the glove box), for all of this versatility... offer some bonus to said versatility. Even if its something small, like +2% bonus to web / ewar strength per level.

You may start to see things other than just flights of combat drones getting popped like balloons out there. ;) As it is, there is almost too much drone bay (even in pvp, I don't normally go through THAT many drones before needing a station to repair, etc anyway).

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1114 - 2013-01-14 06:16:32 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:

Personally i'd like to be able to make use of links solo. And i mean *truely solo*. I want to jump into a gate-camp and turn my link on and start fighting, without other people around or in fleet.

This is something I agree with. Fleets should not give you any artificial advantage and I don't see how one man fleet is any different from 2 man one in RP persective. These link interfaces surely can create null-connection of some sort to transmit all their goodies to themselves without having to transmit them to someone else too.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#1115 - 2013-01-14 06:28:59 UTC
With the absolute flood of Drone ships they have been putting into game lately, I truly hope they have some grand plans for drones in regards to AI, UI, and functionality.


Signed
/A drone bunny

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Rhoaden
Australia Federal Police
#1116 - 2013-01-14 06:40:37 UTC
Can we get a +1 for neut/Drone prophecy ?
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#1117 - 2013-01-14 07:44:32 UTC
zahg wrote:
I really like your t1 cruiser changes as i do for the BC change and BS change coming soon.

But what i do not like is that once again you remove an advantage to the solo players by making the navy and faction ships absolutly useless to pvp next to the t1 ones.
A T1 caracal tank more, tackle better, have more speed, more CPU than a navy caracal....its just one from all the others.

Pimp was a way to give an extra boost to your solo ship against blobs (because lets say it, eve is all about blobs nowaday).

I'd like to see some serious thinking about the navy and faction.

Otherwise, thank you for all the efforts you do to make the game better for PVP.

pie and navy and t2 ships having been rebalanced yet.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#1118 - 2013-01-14 08:43:53 UTC
So many Drama-Llamas...

Anyway, I've been thinking about the Commandships changes that are also on the horizon. Going with the example of the Cyclone, the Claymore is also supposed to be a missile boat. My query is how likely is it that the Claymore will become a Cyclone with a T2 resist profile and bonuses to 2 kinds of links? I expect the Commandships class to be slightly toned down from the combat perspective, just like the Tech 1 BCs will be. But seeing as one of the secondary bonuses it currently has is a 3% to Skirmish links, will the second damage bonus get dropped for the second link bonus its due to recieve? Will the same bein store for the Sleipnir?

Friends
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1119 - 2013-01-14 08:54:07 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
So many Drama-Llamas...

Anyway, I've been thinking about the Commandships changes that are also on the horizon. Going with the example of the Cyclone, the Claymore is also supposed to be a missile boat. My query is how likely is it that the Claymore will become a Cyclone with a T2 resist profile and bonuses to 2 kinds of links? I expect the Commandships class to be slightly toned down from the combat perspective, just like the Tech 1 BCs will be. But seeing as one of the secondary bonuses it currently has is a 3% to Skirmish links, will the second damage bonus get dropped for the second link bonus its due to recieve? Will the same bein store for the Sleipnir?

from what i could understand all command ships will get a bonus to 2 links, and have decent offensive capabilities.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Kitsune Jones
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1120 - 2013-01-14 09:31:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitsune Jones
Stop faffing around with giving ships weird numbers of drones. It's a terrible mechanic and just winds up with ships that can't use a matched flight of drones, while mismatched drone flights are as fundamentally smart as making a ship that mounts two large, one medium, and three small turrets. The result is a ship that sucks equally against all targets.

If you make a drone ship, give it the bandwidth to handle a full flight of the drone size for it. If you want to make Gallente ships definitively better with drones, do it by giving them a bigger drone bonus, not by making Amarr ships unable to use as many drones. Then give Amarr ships the bigger bays, but don't screw the Gallente by only giving them enough for a single batch of drones.

[Edit: Actually, on second thought, weird numbers of drones are acceptable if the ship bonus includes something like 'For every level your drone bandwidth increases by...' so that they can field a full flight of drones by the time they hit level 5. It's fine if a drone boat starts off as a mediocre drone boat as long as it can be made into a good drone boat with skill.]