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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1001 - 2013-01-12 14:49:24 UTC
Nathaniel Branden wrote:
Remove all turret and launcher hardpoints and replace them with general weapon hardpoints, so they can fit anything. Also, remove the specific weapon bonuses and replace them with a generic bonuses too, so that they apply to everything as well.


YES.


but the i would have spaceship command for 4 races with the gunnery/missiles skills and choose the pretiest ship to fly :D
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#1002 - 2013-01-12 14:51:19 UTC
Nathaniel Branden wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:
Auto/Torp/CruiseGeddon.
AutoDrake!

Right.
Not to mention how radically different some weapon systems are to fit, as shown by the discussion on top of this page, just ripe for the abuse, if off-racial weapon systems are also bonused on every hull.
So yea.
No.


Again, these proposed changes only apply to 3 Tier 1 BCs & the Myrmidon, in the same vein of the Tier 3 BCs are the only ships that fit oversized guns.

Hakan's summary of my post is quite inaccurate.

The sole innacuracy was that you intended it for combat BC's alone. Either way, all your doing is making racial choices completely unimportant. Aside from whe scale with whihc your suggestion is intended, my point and those made after it still stand. Its a bad idea.

Friends
Nathaniel Branden
Starwinders
#1003 - 2013-01-12 15:09:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Nathaniel Branden
Quote:

The sole innacuracy was that you intended it for combat BC's alone. Either way, all your doing is making racial choices completely unimportant. Aside from whe scale with whihc your suggestion is intended, my point and those made after it still stand. Its a bad idea.


Scale is very important and as a result you started to mention ships that the proposal never intended to change but never-mind, moving on:

Racial choices would still be important - especially considering the skill change is to be introduce at the same time but this would offer players more options on 4 hulls that are notorious for not using their racial weapons!

I've never flown with lasers on a Prophecy or hybrids on a Myrmidon, have you?
X ATM092
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#1004 - 2013-01-12 15:27:54 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Fozzie, I'm glad to see that you addressed the general concerns around the Brutix, Cyclone, and Ferox... but there's been quite a lot of angst over the Prophecy/Myrm appearing dominant and the Harbinger getting quad nerfed (likely worse than the other Tier 2s) when it was already the worst Tier 2 BC.

I know your goal is to make Tier 2 BCs much less attractive than they currently are, but I'm not sure why you want to make the Harbinger go from exceedingly rare to almost wholly nonexistent. Making the ship even more of a whale, nerfing fittings, and nerfing tank all at the same time makes it trivially the worst option of all the BCs.

-Liang


Yup that's a piece of feedback I've been getting from a lot of sources I consider weighty, and it's something I'm looking closely at.

Lower the mass, up the speed, give it more fitting. That way it can distinguish itself from the prophecy and find a niche as a mid range, decently tanked, turret boat that no other bc currently fills.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#1005 - 2013-01-12 15:28:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
I apologize for my attitude, but it is within reason:


I am rather upset that my favorite ship the Hurricane is being nerfed into uselessness. It was balanced and fine the way it was there was no need or reason to even touch it buff or nerf wise, it was a perfect ship.

And now as if if nerfing its PG and CPU was not enough (which basically crippled it), your throwing it off the cliff and into the space Junk yard by taking its shields, its armor, its hull and one of its high slots.

I mean really, enough is enough. Stop, put it back the way it was and leave it alone, instead of nerfing the ONLY balanced and worthwhile BC's (The Cane The Myrm, and the Drake) why dont you buff the others to put them in line with them? I mean seriously.

Breaking **** is not fixing ****. Its the exact opposite.

If you continue along this line of development you should refund the skillpoints player spent months and years putting into the Cane. Some people focused specifically on this ship and it is the only one they fly for pvp. By nerfing it like you continue to do you are basically forcing a player to retrain for months in order to get into a ship that is as effective as the one they have already trained for.

For example, I now fly battlships, simply because BC's are no longer worth my time with all the nerfs your giving them and I dont feel like retraining for months in order to "specialize" the others like I was in the cane.

If the above is out of the question, then I seriously suggest you add a function to EvE which allows the player to reset their skill points or to reallocate them. That way when you do stupid **** like this, your decisions do not cripple the player.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#1006 - 2013-01-12 15:52:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
I apologize for my attitude, but it is within reason:


I am rather upset that my favorite ship the Hurricane is being nerfed into uselessness. It was balanced and fine the way it was there was no need or reason to even touch it buff or nerf wise, it was a perfect ship.

And now as if if nerfing its PG and CPU was not enough (which basically crippled it), your throwing it off the cliff and into the space Junk yard by taking its shields, its armor, its hull and one of its high slots.

I mean really, enough is enough. Stop, put it back the way it was and leave it alone, instead of nerfing the ONLY balanced and worthwhile BC's (The Cane The Myrm, and the Drake) why dont you buff the others to put them in line with them? I mean seriously.

Breaking **** is not fixing ****. Its the exact opposite.

If you continue along this line of development you should refund the skillpoints player spent months and years putting into the Cane. Some people focused specifically on this ship and it is the only one they fly for pvp. By nerfing it like you continue to do you are basically forcing a player to retrain for months in order to get into a ship that is as effective as the one they have already trained for.

For example, I now fly battlships, simply because BC's are no longer worth my time with all the nerfs your giving them and I dont feel like retraining for months in order to "specialize" the others like I was in the cane.

If the above is out of the question, then I seriously suggest you add a function to EvE which allows the player to reset their skill points or to reallocate them. That way when you do stupid **** like this, your decisions do not cripple the player.


u wont get ur SP's refunded unless they remove such ships from the game. can i have ur stuff?

edit- btw, when they nerfed heavy missiles and the canes grid, i actually said the cane pilots weren't whining because they tended to have a better perception of balance and the rugged maturity to adapt...so thanks for this ^^ lol just make me out to be a right liar.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1007 - 2013-01-12 17:09:53 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
stuff +
If you continue along this line of development you should refund the skillpoints player spent months and years putting into the Cane. Some people focused specifically on this ship and it is the only one they fly for pvp. By nerfing it like you continue to do you are basically forcing a player to retrain for months in order to get into a ship that is as effective as the one they have already trained for.

For example, I now fly battlships, simply because BC's are no longer worth my time with all the nerfs your giving them and I dont feel like retraining for months in order to "specialize" the others like I was in the cane.

If the above is out of the question, then I seriously suggest you add a function to EvE which allows the player to reset their skill points or to reallocate them. That way when you do stupid **** like this, your decisions do not cripple the player.


Thats the name of the game man, its actualy quite silly to have trained up for one ship and only put your SP into one ship. The fact that people where encoraged to train for 1 BC and stay in it is why CCP are nerffing the Tr2 BCs, To force people like you to step out of their safety zone. Maybe you can fly a tornado, or a rupture or just give me your stuff.

Over all I like most these changes, tho I really think the grid on a few ships could be improved, thats one reason the new Dessys kinda fail, you spend way to much room on fitting mods.

I for one welcome our new Prophocy overlords.
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1008 - 2013-01-12 17:11:17 UTC
I only really fly the Brutix and Ferox regularly and I have to say I like the changes.

The extra low slot on the Brutix seems to push it solidly into armor-tanking, so hopefully your talk about looking into armor-tanking isn't just placating. I'd be okay with a different bonus than armor repping too, since I fly the Brutix as a single bonus ship right now anyway, but I'm trusting in unannounced future balancing.

The Ferox is getting a much-needed upgrade and I feel it'll be a solid contender. I actually like the optimal bonus for use with Heavy Neutrons/Null so i'm happy to see that retained. I'm not sure if I'd prefer an extra mid or low slot; right now my fit will use the low-slot for a fitting mod for an extra Neutron and some tank, and an extra mid would require dropping the gun size but I'd be able to fit even more tank. I'm torn, but still leaning towards the low slot (Gallente at heart...)

Overall the changes look good, except for the Harbi which is just getting ******, and I think I'm seeing an overall intention of BCs being "big cruisers" rather than the catch-all super Swiss Army knife they are now. I like the direction we're going here.

CCP has no sense of humour.
Kaz Mafaele
D-sync
D-sync.
#1009 - 2013-01-12 17:23:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaz Mafaele
Its really awesome to see someone responding on here in a fairly comprehensive way thank you for doing that. Any chance you could comment on a couple things.

1. Why the new expectation for minmatar pilots its to train 3-4 weapon systems in order to be able to effectively fly their ships (a/c, arty, missiles and now drones with cyclone really needing that drone bandwith to do damage) as a player with a somewhat low amount of skill points it kills me to try to figure out when i am going to be able to train missiles and drones up properly especially since i don't think ill be feeling any desire to fly my Hurricane anymore after its second nerf in a matter of months. Leaving me with ONLY a missile/drone boat.

2. It feels like you are trying to take away some of minmatar flexibility with these changes by adding more armor and less speed to some of the hulls and more shields to others taking away their ability to be effective with either tank.
Mund Richard
#1010 - 2013-01-12 17:33:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Some Rando wrote:
The Ferox is getting a much-needed upgrade and I feel it'll be a solid contender. I actually like the optimal bonus for use with Heavy Neutrons/Null so i'm happy to see that retained. I'm not sure if I'd prefer an extra mid or low slot; right now my fit will use the low-slot for a fitting mod for an extra Neutron and some tank, and an extra mid would require dropping the gun size but I'd be able to fit even more tank. I'm torn, but still leaning towards the low slot (Gallente at heart...)

I'm torn on the Ferox's slots/ect.

Fitting it for full braw: With 6 slots, it would be The Holy Trinity, and a 3-slot tank, that's enough, with 5 it's a bit tight.
But still one more than the Brutix.
Bit less manouverable, less damaging, in return harder to kite and harder to kill.

Fitting it for sniping... well... Naga and Rokh for ganky and tanky sniping, the Ferox tries to be on the budget between the two but doesn't appeal to me in any way for that.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1011 - 2013-01-12 17:33:48 UTC
Kaz Mafaele wrote:

Why the new expectation for minmatar pilots its to train 3-4 weapon systems in order to be able to effectively fly their ships (a/c, arty, missiles and now drones with cyclone really needing that drone bandwith to do damage) as a player with a somewhat low amount of skill points it kills me to try to figure out when i am going to be able to train missiles and drones up properly especially since i don't think ill be feeling any desire to fly my Hurricane anymore after its second nerf in a matter of months. Leaving me with ONLY a missile/drone boat.

This is not a Winmatar-exclusive concept. Think about Caldari.
Mund Richard
#1012 - 2013-01-12 17:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
This is not a Winmatar-exclusive concept. Think about Caldari.

While some caldari try to pretend hybrids don't exsist as much as do minnies now with missiles, as a slight difference a few minnie ships are armor-tankable which the caldari don't have to deal with.
Not that you wouldn't want to train mechanism and hull upgrades for DC and more EHP anyways, so the added burden is the armor compensation and rig skills.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1013 - 2013-01-12 17:46:17 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
I'm torn on the Ferox's slots/ect.

Fitting it for full braw: With 6 slots, it would be The Holy Trinity, and a 3-slot tank, that's enough, with 5 it's a bit tight.
But still one more than the Brutix.
Bit less manouverable, less damaging, in return harder to kite and harder to kill.

Fitting it for sniping... well... Naga and Rokh for ganky and tanky sniping, the Ferox tries to be on the budget between the two but doesn't appeal to me in any way for that.

Yeah, it's a matter of preference in fitting. With a six-slot mid I'd have to drop the Neutrons in favor of Ions, which means less range for that optimal bonus to work with, but a far heavier tank. Ugh OTOH a six-slot mid is much more Caldari, so I'm surprised we don't have that.

And I agree, the Ferox is a blaster boat, I don't think I'd ever use it for sniping.

CCP has no sense of humour.
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1014 - 2013-01-12 17:55:03 UTC
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Thats the name of the game man, its actualy quite silly to have trained up for one ship and only put your SP into one ship.

It's actually quite what CCP is forcing people to do now by making cross-training even harder with the skills change. This problem will only get worse for new people who train into one race for months, only to find out down the line that it's only good at one thing, or sucks at everything. They are at the same time making more willy nilly changes to break things people relied on, while making it harder to walk away and train into something different when they screw it up.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Connall Tara
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1015 - 2013-01-12 17:58:07 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
I apologize for my attitude, but it is within reason:


I am rather upset that my favorite ship the Hurricane is being nerfed into uselessness. It was balanced and fine the way it was there was no need or reason to even touch it buff or nerf wise, it was a perfect ship.

And now as if if nerfing its PG and CPU was not enough (which basically crippled it), your throwing it off the cliff and into the space Junk yard by taking its shields, its armor, its hull and one of its high slots.

I mean really, enough is enough. Stop, put it back the way it was and leave it alone, instead of nerfing the ONLY balanced and worthwhile BC's (The Cane The Myrm, and the Drake) why dont you buff the others to put them in line with them? I mean seriously.

Breaking **** is not fixing ****. Its the exact opposite.

If you continue along this line of development you should refund the skillpoints player spent months and years putting into the Cane. Some people focused specifically on this ship and it is the only one they fly for pvp. By nerfing it like you continue to do you are basically forcing a player to retrain for months in order to get into a ship that is as effective as the one they have already trained for.

For example, I now fly battlships, simply because BC's are no longer worth my time with all the nerfs your giving them and I dont feel like retraining for months in order to "specialize" the others like I was in the cane.

If the above is out of the question, then I seriously suggest you add a function to EvE which allows the player to reset their skill points or to reallocate them. That way when you do stupid **** like this, your decisions do not cripple the player.



*takes shot*

let the "refund my skillpoints" drinking game BEGIN!

Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1016 - 2013-01-12 18:09:53 UTC
Nathaniel Branden wrote:
Overall, I feel the changes are rather underwhelming, even more so when they are compared to the amazing job done on the frigate and cruiser tiercide. Furthermore, the introduction of the Tier 3 BC offered an exciting new mechanic by allowing the fitting over BS sized weapons to a BC sized hull. If possible, I would like to see similar changes and exciting ideas enacted for the Spring expansion.

This sums it up best. The frigate and cruiser changes worked out so well; they were thoughtful, aggressive changes, that reformed all the various hulls into some clear, common roles that do what they say, and do it with some real power. The BC changes amount to doing nothing all that special for the tier 1s and just flat out nerfing the tier 2s. If you make each hull great at one thing, rather than good at everything (which was the problem with them before), then people will feel like you made a positive, rational change. As it is, they don't feel "different" . . . just worse, or not much better.

There also doesn't appear to be a unifying concept to any of the changes, other than "tier 2s were too good." Well, you know one of the reasons they were too good was due to the skill economy of the non-racial skill. Now that they're getting racialized, they need to ALL be good, and if anything they need to be better than they were (at least for whatever each one's designated role is). They also should outclass cruisers in every way, because you have told us through the new skill plan that they're a whole new class of ship, not just bigger cruisers. If that means that BCs wind up putting battleships to shame, well then that's the point of balancing them too when the time comes.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1017 - 2013-01-12 18:13:12 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
This is not a Winmatar-exclusive concept. Think about Caldari.

While some caldari try to pretend hybrids don't exsist as much as do minnies now with missiles, as a slight difference a few minnie ships are armor-tankable which the caldari don't have to deal with.
Not that you wouldn't want to train mechanism and hull upgrades for DC and more EHP anyways, so the added burden is the armor compensation and rig skills.

Every turret type allows you to use 2 versions of such turrets (long and short range). Missiles however requires you to train 2 separate skills for every weapon size.
Mund Richard
#1018 - 2013-01-12 18:23:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Some Rando wrote:
Yeah, it's a matter of preference in fitting. With a six-slot mid I'd have to drop the Neutrons in favor of Ions, which means less range for that optimal bonus to work with, but a far heavier tank. Ugh OTOH a six-slot mid is much more Caldari, so I'm surprised we don't have that.
And I agree, the Ferox is a blaster boat, I don't think I'd ever use it for sniping.
What rigs are you looking at?
I thought it fits with a PG one or so.
Connall Tara wrote:
*takes shot*
let the "refund my skillpoints" drinking game BEGIN!
*hick*
Thought it was on from page one?
Darn, I took those shots for NOTHING!
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
Every turret type allows you to use 2 versions of such turrets (long and short range). Missiles however requires you to train 2 separate skills for every weapon size.
True.
Since at least the support skills are the same, and T2 guns require you to train twice for each size as well, AND require you to train the sizes below, I tend to not mind/remember that part.
Going for Large gun spec is at least as bad as going for both Torp and Cruise, to get mediums alone I suppose the missiles may be off worse.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#1019 - 2013-01-12 19:06:46 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
I apologize for my attitude, but it is within reason:


I am rather upset that my favorite ship the Hurricane is being nerfed into uselessness. It was balanced and fine the way it was there was no need or reason to even touch it buff or nerf wise, it was a perfect ship.

And now as if if nerfing its PG and CPU was not enough (which basically crippled it), your throwing it off the cliff and into the space Junk yard by taking its shields, its armor, its hull and one of its high slots.

I mean really, enough is enough. Stop, put it back the way it was and leave it alone, instead of nerfing the ONLY balanced and worthwhile BC's (The Cane The Myrm, and the Drake) why dont you buff the others to put them in line with them? I mean seriously.

Breaking **** is not fixing ****. Its the exact opposite.

If you continue along this line of development you should refund the skillpoints player spent months and years putting into the Cane. Some people focused specifically on this ship and it is the only one they fly for pvp. By nerfing it like you continue to do you are basically forcing a player to retrain for months in order to get into a ship that is as effective as the one they have already trained for.

For example, I now fly battlships, simply because BC's are no longer worth my time with all the nerfs your giving them and I dont feel like retraining for months in order to "specialize" the others like I was in the cane.

If the above is out of the question, then I seriously suggest you add a function to EvE which allows the player to reset their skill points or to reallocate them. That way when you do stupid **** like this, your decisions do not cripple the player.


You seem mad that you were able to fly a FOTM ship (for well more than a month)
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1020 - 2013-01-12 19:12:06 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
What rigs are you looking at?
I thought it fits with a PG one or so.

I try to avoid ACRs, so three CDFEs. The fifth low would be a power diagnostic system to allow the seventh gun, which also increases shield HP. I only use two of my mids for tank for more utility. vOv

CCP has no sense of humour.