These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Mund Richard
#461 - 2013-01-09 19:19:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Edward Pierce wrote:
Lauren Sheaperd wrote:
No it doesn't, because nobody fields just three heavy drones. You're math is almost as bad as my broad, sweeping statements. Yes, it is a significant damage bonus - it's doesn't stop this being a relatively 'small' change - and no, the problem with the Myrmidon isn't the lack luster armor rep bonus. Infact, the armor rep bonus combined with the drone bonus is one of the reasons the Myrmidon is a great ship, and will continue to be so.
Good point, most people max out and use 2 heavy 2 medium and 1 light, if you turn that into 3 heavy 2 medium and 1 light it still comes up to a 30% boost in base drone DPS. The armor rep discussion is already being addressed by some unannounced changes to armor repairers that they keep hinting at in this thread.

Did you just upgrade 5 drones into 6 there? Roll
+21% if you use the bandwidth to the fullest.
And I don't know how to break it to you, but it lost a turret slot, so the damage increase is...
*sigh*
Why do I even bother, last time I said the bandwidth buff is a T2 neutron's worth of damage lost on paper, I wasn't ridiculed for the part that it cannot apply it's damage properly (which I expected), but that no one fits anything but ACs or neuts on it. Roll

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Exterminatus Illexis
Unmarked Discrete Packaging.
#462 - 2013-01-09 19:23:42 UTC
Freyja Asynjur wrote:
fenistil wrote:
Freyja Asynjur wrote:
Damn, you guys have no right to mess with the cyclone hull. Evil Missile cyclone ? It's bad, bad, bad, bad...

(also, brutix still broken with its armor rep bonus)


With the extra low on Brutix, it might not be that bad. O_o Guess people going to have to test it :)
Missile Cyclone could be a tad better, maybe 5% more DPS overall but it's not much of a nerf so far. The extra low gives a bit more flexibility to it.

Gang Modules in Utility High? It's got the most CPU of the tier 1 BCs, so why not? It's decent solo and small gang ship EVEN with missiles.


It's a matter of principle, the Cyclone hull has an iconic status in EVE. Who the hell would want a missileboat Cyclone ? Then what, missile Sleipnir/Claymore ? Cry



If you've been paying attention to the devblogs, they're focusing the Sleipnir on turret combat and the Claymore on missile combat.

So yeah, half.

And they're giving the minmatar pilots a clear line so they don't have to jump too far to go along the missile line.
Right now their idea is more or less:
Breacher > Talwar > Bellicose(Which is honestly a bloody amazing ship if you haven't played with it.) > Cyclone > Typhoon

With love,

Your favorite idiot.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#463 - 2013-01-09 19:30:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We're planning to release these ships in an upcoming Retribution point release so that we can keep the balance train rolling steadily. I'm working to figure out the earliest point we can get them on a test server so that I can start getting hands on feedback from you all. As always these stats are subject to change and we welcome all the feedback you can provide.


Dear CCP Fozzie,

Much more important then what you did is how you did. These point releases, keeping the train rolling is the best course of action that you could possibly take, this gives the community a feeling of constant improvement on the game. Also, asking the community about feedback before the release, ensures an epic level of smoothness to the changes, and the happiness of all. Congratulations for your attitude Fozzie!

I really hope that other DEVS follow your example!

best regards.

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Nemo Sokarad
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#464 - 2013-01-09 19:30:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Nemo Sokarad
To my mind the Minmatar Battlecruisers need +5km lock range and +1 sensor strength to bring them in line with the other races.
Freyja Asynjur
Folkvangr
#465 - 2013-01-09 19:31:01 UTC
Exterminatus Illexis wrote:

If you've been paying attention to the devblogs, they're focusing the Sleipnir on turret combat and the Claymore on missile combat.

So yeah, half.

And they're giving the minmatar pilots a clear line so they don't have to jump too far to go along the missile line.
Right now their idea is more or less:
Breacher > Talwar > Bellicose(Which is honestly a bloody amazing ship if you haven't played with it.) > Cyclone > Typhoon


I missed that. Must have made a mental jam on that travesty of a classic, iconic, highly loved line of ships (Cyclone/Claymore)

-
Edward Pierce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#466 - 2013-01-09 19:31:47 UTC
Exterminatus Illexis wrote:
In a fleet scenario, yeah the active rep bonus is pretty useless. The area that I was pointing out was more of a small gang scenario.

The Myrmidon however can get a universal 60%+ on its resists fit right, and in a fleet you'd have guardians which can rep around twice as much also a lot more of them. Without combat caps usually since they need those to counter neuts within their chain.

Your scenario was pretty flawed in that it assumes the Myrmidon is using two reps while the Prophecy is using none. Another important fact you seem to be missing is that the Prophecy will have higher resists than the Myrmidon, so those reps coming from the logistics ship(s) will be able to counter more incoming DPS.

Work your numbers right and you'll quickly realize that even in a gang with a single logistics ship, the Prophecy's armor resist bonus is far better than the Myrmidon's local reps bonus.
Poision Kevin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#467 - 2013-01-09 19:35:51 UTC
Why the F*** did you improve damage bonus and remove one gun of harby? Why not reduce bonus and keep 7 guns + 1 utility slot?

The one ship from Amarr that's been worth it's penny everytime I've used it is getting nerfed... **** I say, ****.
Exterminatus Illexis
Unmarked Discrete Packaging.
#468 - 2013-01-09 19:37:15 UTC
Edward Pierce wrote:
Exterminatus Illexis wrote:
In a fleet scenario, yeah the active rep bonus is pretty useless. The area that I was pointing out was more of a small gang scenario.

The Myrmidon however can get a universal 60%+ on its resists fit right, and in a fleet you'd have guardians which can rep around twice as much also a lot more of them. Without combat caps usually since they need those to counter neuts within their chain.

Your scenario was pretty flawed in that it assumes the Myrmidon is using two reps while the Prophecy is using none. Another important fact you seem to be missing is that the Prophecy will have higher resists than the Myrmidon, so those reps coming from the logistics ship(s) will be able to counter more incoming DPS.

Work your numbers right and you'll quickly realize that even in a gang with a single logistics ship, the Prophecy's armor resist bonus is far better than the Myrmidon's local reps bonus.


You appear to have caught the stupid. Please commit a frontal lobotomy by means of large hammer.

Also you're saying exactly what I said.

With love,

Your favorite idiot.
BigSako
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#469 - 2013-01-09 19:37:51 UTC
Why didn't you start your post with:

"Hi, my name is CCP Fozzie and I want to make sure that all the Battlecruisers that you are flying for large scaled PvP will have to be refitted!".


CCP, do you even think about the paper work for Alliances and FC when we have to change fittings for these battlecruisers every month?
Edward Pierce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#470 - 2013-01-09 19:40:30 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Edward Pierce wrote:
Lauren Sheaperd wrote:
No it doesn't, because nobody fields just three heavy drones. You're math is almost as bad as my broad, sweeping statements. Yes, it is a significant damage bonus - it's doesn't stop this being a relatively 'small' change - and no, the problem with the Myrmidon isn't the lack luster armor rep bonus. Infact, the armor rep bonus combined with the drone bonus is one of the reasons the Myrmidon is a great ship, and will continue to be so.
Good point, most people max out and use 2 heavy 2 medium and 1 light, if you turn that into 3 heavy 2 medium and 1 light it still comes up to a 30% boost in base drone DPS. The armor rep discussion is already being addressed by some unannounced changes to armor repairers that they keep hinting at in this thread.

Did you just upgrade 5 drones into 6 there? Roll
+21% if you use the bandwidth to the fullest.
And I don't know how to break it to you, but it lost a turret slot, so the damage increase is...
*sigh*
Why do I even bother, last time I said the bandwidth buff is a T2 neutron's worth of damage lost on paper, I wasn't ridiculed for the part that it cannot apply it's damage properly (which I expected), but that no one fits anything but ACs or neuts on it. Roll

Ah yeah, didn't catch that 6 drone thing. So 20% if fitting for 5 drones, 33% if fitting heavies or sentries?

The loss of a turret isn't that bad since they don't get a bonus and most of your damage mods are going to drones anyways.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#471 - 2013-01-09 19:42:00 UTC
Edward Pierce wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:
Edward Pierce wrote:
Lauren Sheaperd wrote:
No it doesn't, because nobody fields just three heavy drones. You're math is almost as bad as my broad, sweeping statements. Yes, it is a significant damage bonus - it's doesn't stop this being a relatively 'small' change - and no, the problem with the Myrmidon isn't the lack luster armor rep bonus. Infact, the armor rep bonus combined with the drone bonus is one of the reasons the Myrmidon is a great ship, and will continue to be so.
Good point, most people max out and use 2 heavy 2 medium and 1 light, if you turn that into 3 heavy 2 medium and 1 light it still comes up to a 30% boost in base drone DPS. The armor rep discussion is already being addressed by some unannounced changes to armor repairers that they keep hinting at in this thread.

Did you just upgrade 5 drones into 6 there? Roll
+21% if you use the bandwidth to the fullest.
And I don't know how to break it to you, but it lost a turret slot, so the damage increase is...
*sigh*
Why do I even bother, last time I said the bandwidth buff is a T2 neutron's worth of damage lost on paper, I wasn't ridiculed for the part that it cannot apply it's damage properly (which I expected), but that no one fits anything but ACs or neuts on it. Roll

Ah yeah, didn't catch that 6 drone thing. So 20% if fitting for 5 drones, 33% if fitting heavies or sentries?

The loss of a turret isn't that bad since they don't get a bonus and most of your damage mods are going to drones anyways.

I can understand losing the turret but i still cant wrap my head around why we lost the utility high slot.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#472 - 2013-01-09 19:43:31 UTC
BigSako wrote:
Why didn't you start your post with:

"Hi, my name is CCP Fozzie and I want to make sure that all the Battlecruisers that you are flying for large scaled PvP will have to be refitted!".


CCP, do you even think about the paper work for Alliances and FC when we have to change fittings for these battlecruisers every month?


Mixing things up a bit is sort of the point. Suck it up and deal with it.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Mund Richard
#473 - 2013-01-09 19:45:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Edward Pierce wrote:
Ah yeah, didn't catch that 6 drone thing. So 20% if fitting for 5 drones, 33% if fitting heavies or sentries?
The loss of a turret isn't that bad since they don't get a bonus and most of your damage mods are going to drones anyways.
Yea, +20% for 5 drones.
Sentry numbers are different.

The fact that the way they are "best used" a turret loss isn't bad, while on paper it should be, is something that makes me sad.

I like my gallente drone boats with blaster and drone damage bonus, and the myrm always felt sticking out like a Naglfar in a fleet of Moroses. And not because it's friggin vertical.
Let the amarr bring the neuts on their drone boats if they so want.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Edward Pierce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#474 - 2013-01-09 19:49:18 UTC
Exterminatus Illexis wrote:
You appear to have caught the stupid. Please commit a frontal lobotomy by means of large hammer.

Also you're saying exactly what I said.

Yes, I feel myself getting dumber every time I read your posts.

Maybe I didn't read this right, but I believe you were saying that the scenario you came up with was more of a small gang; I'm pointing out that even with just 1 logistics ship (hardly a fleet scenario) the 5% armor resist bonus is far better than a 7.5 local rep bonus.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#475 - 2013-01-09 19:50:02 UTC
Poision Kevin wrote:
Why the F*** did you improve damage bonus and remove one gun of harby? Why not reduce bonus and keep 7 guns + 1 utility slot?

The one ship from Amarr that's been worth it's penny everytime I've used it is getting nerfed... **** I say, ****.


How exactly getting more DPS while keeping the utility slot is a nerf ?

Please explain me that.

Also Fozzie, in case you didn't saw it already, please, please buff the Harbingers' CPU. It's a MASSIVE issue, both on the current and the new Harbinger.

Fake EDIT :

Now that I made fits for all the new BCs on the modified EFT, please note that the Harbinger is severly lacking in both PWG and CPU.

My current Harbinger fit is this one :

Quote:
[NEW Harbinger, PVP - PulseFLeet]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Internal Force Field Array I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5
Warrior II x5


Biggest guns (It's a BC, it has to use the biggest medium guns available), T1 plate. Nothing really demanding fitted.

Yet, it's short 48 CPU and 264 PWG at All V.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#476 - 2013-01-09 19:50:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonas Sukarala
i find these changes.. if you can call them that really not much has changed .. underwhelming and not exciting in the least considering realistically this is the most important class for the majority of fights i would have expected much more ...much much more.
Where to start... drake slight nerf but still the same really what happened to removing its sh resist for a ROF bonus and removing the 6th mid which combined with sh resis makes its tank far too OP.
Gal bc's armour rep bonus to 10% what happened there? myrm would benefit from a full set of drone bonus or at least continue the vexor line.
Cyclone has same drones as brutix why?
Harbi has 2 10% bonus really?... maller line anyone...
Prophecy needs arm resist why exactly?
seriously how much do you hate the ferox? no -one wants a slow second rate naga

But overall i expected the sig radius on these ships to drop closer to the Attack bc's as a drake will have a higher sig than the amarr battleships...... the cruiser part of the name really should mean something.
Oh and ship mass on some of these are the same if not better than the combat cruisers why?
Surely bc's should start from attack bc's then combat bc's add say 1mil mass.
Also the HP values is still too high and less dps would be nicer to bot stomp over the cruiser changes.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Edward Pierce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#477 - 2013-01-09 19:53:16 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Edward Pierce wrote:
Ah yeah, didn't catch that 6 drone thing. So 20% if fitting for 5 drones, 33% if fitting heavies or sentries?
The loss of a turret isn't that bad since they don't get a bonus and most of your damage mods are going to drones anyways.
Yea, +20% for 5 drones.
Sentry numbers are different.

The fact that the way they are "best used" a turret loss isn't bad, while on paper it should be, is something that makes me sad.

I like my gallente drone boats with blaster and drone damage bonus, and the myrm always felt sticking out like a Naglfar in a fleet of Moroses. And not because it's friggin vertical.
Let the amarr bring the neuts on their drone boats if they so want.

Look at the Dominix, constantly flown with neuts instead of blasters. The real problem here is the infamous "mixed weapon systems" that keeps coming up here. Granted you don't have to sacrifice drones to fit more turrets, but you do have to sacrifice the damage mod slots.

The Myrmidon would be fine if they fixed its tank bonus and did something about how easy it is to counter drones.
Mund Richard
#478 - 2013-01-09 19:59:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Edward Pierce wrote:
Look at the Dominix, constantly flown with neuts instead of blasters. The real problem here is the infamous "mixed weapon systems" that keeps coming up here. Granted you don't have to sacrifice drones to fit more turrets, but you do have to sacrifice the damage mod slots.

The Myrmidon would be fine if they fixed its tank bonus and did something about how easy it is to counter drones.
So... Drone ships would be fine, if they weren't having the drawbacks of drone ships and armor tanking? Roll

...in fact, the drone + hybrid split wouldn't be bad... if it was on a shield-tanked ship... Roll
Could use the lows for DDA/magstab/TEs...

But that would be fun.
(Or more precisely either OP, or too much of a hassle to bring out the dps.)

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Okuu Reiuji
PEETOOSHKEE PRIMARY OK
#479 - 2013-01-09 20:03:08 UTC
tgl3 wrote:
The Drake is keeping the Kin bonus? Uh huuuuh...


Yeah. It's 2013 already! Make it omni or 5% to launcher rate of fire.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#480 - 2013-01-09 20:04:00 UTC
So, is there a hidden suggestion that maybe drone ships should be worked on after drones them selves are fixed?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.