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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Ixtelle
Brutor Academy
#441 - 2013-01-09 18:25:35 UTC
fenistil wrote:
CCP, Gallente IS the drone, race!

What's up with Prophecy having more Drone Bay than Myrm and almost as much bandwith?
Also it's a JOKE! that Harb will have more dronebay then the brutix.

(...snip...)



More variety, less power. The idea, to me at least, would be that Myrm would be able to put out more drone damage and carry primarily combat drones. Prophecy would have maybe a flight of lights and / or mediums, and rest be a mix of different types of EWar drones. More versatility in what is obviously (to me) meant to be a support / utility role ship, without making it a contender as a brawler. Works for me.
GreenSeed
#442 - 2013-01-09 18:27:55 UTC  |  Edited by: GreenSeed
the drake changes are really bad... the old announced changes were better. losing the shield resists in exchange for damage selection was way better.

the way it is there, nothing changes, except losing the utility high. the drake continues to be a fat low dps ship, except after the changes to the other ships the low dps part will be even more noticeable, to the point where it will be useless for anything but low SP pve... specially if we need to give up a launcher for RR on pve scenarios. not to mention, of all the Bcs, the drake is the only viable On grid booster we have... so now we will lose even more dps to provide links?


honestly, reduce the tank a LOT more, remove the 5% resist bonus, and make the 5% kin into a 10% all damage per lvl. the drake needs to stop being the fat bastard of the BC lineup. it needs to be what it was supposed to be from the beginning, the big brother of the caracal.

to put it simple, do anything you feel like to the drake hull, but dont take away the utility high!
Kaz Mafaele
D-sync
D-sync.
#443 - 2013-01-09 18:29:09 UTC
Please if you can't stop yourself from forcing minmatar pilots to skill into another weapon system at least dont nerf the ship while doing so. Why is the cyclone the only ship that has only one bonus and five turrets to its main way of doing damage and what exzactly do you think we will use two utility highs on a missile boat for?
fenistil
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#444 - 2013-01-09 18:31:17 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Tennessee Jack wrote:
Exterminatus Illexis wrote:
fenistil wrote:
CCP, Gallente IS the drone, race!

What's up with Prophecy having more Drone Bay than Myrm and almost as much bandwith?
Also it's a JOKE! that Harb will have more dronebay then the brutix.


Suggested Changes to Drone Bays:

ArrowProphecy: 175
ArrowMyrm: 225
ArrowHarb: 50
ArrowBrutix: 75



Funny seeing you here Fen, but the track they were taking with the ships was that Gallente could put out bigger and more drones while Amarr could put out more replacements but not as large. I'm a heavy advocate of the Brutix being able to carry a flight of lights, because as is the thing is vulnerable to... every kiting ship out there.

Basically
Amarr = Redundancy
Gallente = facepunchingmachine


.... this is true and makes sense.

ArrowHarb: 50
ArrowBrutix: 75


Harb needs it waaaaay more.. it has loltracking

a flight of lights wont save you from a kiting frig anyways.


Brutix is not much used for kiting and won't be afterwards either. Shield fitted brutix: separate DPS, get in face, MELT! get out if you can.
+25m3 drone bay is 5 ec-300 drones... Might be just enough for certain situations, better chances than without them anyway.

.
Exterminatus Illexis
Unmarked Discrete Packaging.
#445 - 2013-01-09 18:34:33 UTC
fenistil wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Tennessee Jack wrote:
Exterminatus Illexis wrote:
fenistil wrote:
CCP, Gallente IS the drone, race!

What's up with Prophecy having more Drone Bay than Myrm and almost as much bandwith?
Also it's a JOKE! that Harb will have more dronebay then the brutix.


Suggested Changes to Drone Bays:

ArrowProphecy: 175
ArrowMyrm: 225
ArrowHarb: 50
ArrowBrutix: 75



Funny seeing you here Fen, but the track they were taking with the ships was that Gallente could put out bigger and more drones while Amarr could put out more replacements but not as large. I'm a heavy advocate of the Brutix being able to carry a flight of lights, because as is the thing is vulnerable to... every kiting ship out there.

Basically
Amarr = Redundancy
Gallente = facepunchingmachine


.... this is true and makes sense.

ArrowHarb: 50
ArrowBrutix: 75


Harb needs it waaaaay more.. it has loltracking

a flight of lights wont save you from a kiting frig anyways.


Brutix is not much used for kiting and won't be afterwards either. Shield fitted brutix: separate DPS, get in face, MELT! get out if you can.
+25m3 drone bay is 5 ec-300 drones... Might be just enough for certain situations, better chances than without them anyway.


My point was that the brutix is vulnerable to kiters not is one. I would rip my eyeballs out if I saw someone trying to kite in a brutix. Both out of shame that I saw it, and out of the sheer stupidity that they didn't just use a Talos instead.

With love,

Your favorite idiot.
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#446 - 2013-01-09 18:37:52 UTC
Massive fan of the the Ferox and Brutix, happy you kept the flavour of those ships alive, can't wait to try flying them with the new stats

I lied :o
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#447 - 2013-01-09 18:40:31 UTC
I just want to pipe up and say that I like active armor tank bonuses - in theory. The problems with rig bonuses, lack of oversizing, etc are all very valid, but are not insurmountable. I believe we'll see some changes on this front, and that will make all the difference to these active tanked ships.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kraschyn Thek'athor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#448 - 2013-01-09 18:44:42 UTC
Caldari:
Either the Drake or the Ferox should be defensive.
Give Drake RoF, Ferox with Missiles instead of Rails and an 10% Missilespeed.
There are too many Caldari-Rail ships.These tend to be ignored, since people have to focus skill points.

Gallente:
Same like Caldari, both ships have got an defensive boni.
I wish for something more creative with the Gallente Drone Boats. Like an 1 Ewar/Utility Drone/Level Role Boni.
Even Fighter-Drones as an new Boni would bring some diversity. For Myrms/Domi's using 5x Fighter instead of Drones.

Brutix:
Fix this ship or make here an Industrial. I would call for RoF to make her an DPS-Hammer.

Cyclone:
Mix-Damageslots doesn't work. I refer to the postings 00001 to10000 about this.


Mix-Weapon ships should have generic ship damage boni.The specialisation for the one, or other, should go with the low slots

Prophecy:
Please switch Prophecy stats with Harbinger. Prophecies are iconic, often seen in CCP Videos. They should be typical Amarr designed. I would love to see them with RoF and Damage Boni. Geared for full DPS with Med-Slots with Cap-Booster to keep her going. Give us an ship that is not comfortable and is highly cap problematic.
.
Gneeznow
Ship spinners inc
#449 - 2013-01-09 18:45:13 UTC
The ferox, drake and brutix are missing their utility high for a warfare link.

The cyclone has two utility highs, and it's split weapons for some reason (I think the cyclone's just fine as it is, why change it to a missile ship?)

Overall not a fan.
Anslo
Scope Works
#450 - 2013-01-09 18:46:54 UTC
so clearly this won't effect Command Ships in a bad way like...making the Sleipnir an all missile boat right? That'd just be silly!~

Right?...

Guise?......

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#451 - 2013-01-09 18:47:48 UTC
Kraschyn Thek'athor wrote:
Caldari:

Gallente:
Same like Caldari, both ships have got an defensive boni.
I wish for something more creative with the Gallente Drone Boats. Like an 1 Ewar/Utility Drone/Level Role Boni.
Even Fighter-Drones as an new Boni would bring some diversity. For Myrms/Domi's using 5x Fighter instead of Drones.

The only hull I could ever want/expect someday to have the ability to field 5 fighters is the dominix. Which would make it stand out as a battle ship in the Gallente line up.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Freyja Asynjur
Folkvangr
#452 - 2013-01-09 18:47:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Freyja Asynjur
Damn, you guys have no right to mess with the cyclone hull. Evil Missile cyclone ? It's bad, bad, bad, bad...

(also, brutix still broken with its armor rep bonus)

-
fenistil
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#453 - 2013-01-09 18:58:30 UTC
Freyja Asynjur wrote:
Damn, you guys have no right to mess with the cyclone hull. Evil Missile cyclone ? It's bad, bad, bad, bad...

(also, brutix still broken with its armor rep bonus)


With the extra low on Brutix, it might not be that bad. O_o Guess people going to have to test it :)
Missile Cyclone could be a tad better, maybe 5% more DPS overall but it's not much of a nerf so far. The extra low gives a bit more flexibility to it.

Gang Modules in Utility High? It's got the most CPU of the tier 1 BCs, so why not? It's decent solo and small gang ship EVEN with missiles.

.
FistyMcBumBasher
State War Academy
Caldari State
#454 - 2013-01-09 19:07:45 UTC  |  Edited by: FistyMcBumBardier
After playing with the EFT changes available here: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?10151-devpost-Combat-Battlecruisers/page3

Here is some extra feedback to add to this threadnaught.

The myrmidion and prophecy now fill the exact same role. The only problem is that the prophecy does everything better and is more versatile. Dual rep and triple rep fits for both rep about the same, but the prophecy can also be buffer tanked, which gives it a huge advantage to the Myrm in fleets. The utility high on the Prophecy can also be used for boosts, neuts or smartbombs, while the extra mid present on the myrm will most likely still be used for a web. 25 more dronebay on the myrm would allow it to field 2 flights of ogres, or 2x75 flights+salvage+ecm. I would suggest just giving the myrm a damage bonus to hybrids and being done with it, let the prophecy take it's place as the active tanker since resist per level > armor repair per level. I fear a little bit that the Prophecy will become the new drake/cane. Time to start buying up smartbombs.

Neither the Ferox, Drake, Myrm or Brutix have a utility high, making Caldari and Gallente suffer more than other races to fit Warfare link modules and still be competetive. Not sure what your plans are with links yet, but this could be a potential problem down the road.

The extra CPU to the Ferox is odd, because I know of no fit that gets anywhere close to using all 637.5 CPU. Move some of that bonus to Powergrid removing the necessity of fitting mods. Moving the extra low the ferox gets to a mid slot would also give the ferox more fitting options. If you wanted to go long range you can fit a Tracking computer or sebo, if you want a web you can easily fit one without sacrificing tank. We all know that brawlers need tank.

I feel the same with the cyclone. You clearly want the ship to be shield tanked, so why have 5 mids and 5 lows? The 5 mids leaves a lot to be desired for an active tanking ship. With two of the mids being used for propulsion and tackle, you are left with 3 play around with, which in my opinion is too few especially considering the new weapon system is best used with webs. Is it from fear of making the active tanking power of the Cyclone like it was when fit Dual X-L? Is it so that it is different from the Drakes layout?

The Harb and the Hurricane look ok, slight nerfs to the cane's agility and cap, and a slight dps increase to the harb.

I rather like the tracking bonus on the Thorax, but if it was also present on the Brutix then we might see fewer Thorax's. So keep it how it is, it should be loads of fun to fly now in both shield and armor varients.

Thanks for your hard work, and keep up the good work.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#455 - 2013-01-09 19:11:27 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Why are statements like this even made? Surely I'm not the only one who can see that it's horribly broken that you need three local armor reps to even keep up with a single XL-ASB?? And even think about fitting an oversize armor repper? Forget about it.


Sure, I too would like a buff to active armor tanking.

I'm just saying "It's possible to do that", just like you can have 100MN T3s or fit dual XLASB on a Cyclone (if you seriously gimp the ship).

Also, remember that an XL-ASB can't run for long. A fight between a triple-rep Myrmidon and a XL-ASB Cyclone will end with the Myrmidons' victory, simply because he isn't limited by the reloading of his reppers.

Quote:
For lowsec solo'ing it was the only ship that could take on your standard OP drake


What ? A Drake deals very little DPS compared to other BCs. And it's not all that fast either. Is it that hard to find a counter to it ?

A Myrmidon will kill it if it can catch it (Overload MWD/tackle and be good), for instance.

Quote:
So you have a 5 bay Cyclone with a 5% ROF bonus....Why would anyone choose to fly that over a 7 bay Drake? Maybe CCP is hoping that racial allegiance is stronger than simple math?

Two extra turrets more than makes up for a 5% ROF bonus....plus you have the luxury of actually being able to fit a substantial tank on the Drake. For a shield tanking ship you need Midslots, the Cyclone has one fewer than the Drake.

Not to mention if you want to solo in this ship, where would you put scram and web? Basically solo pvp is out of the question. CCP why are you so intent on pigeonholing every ship in EVE into what YOU choose? Why not give us the flexability to decide for ourselves?


Why would anyone choose to fly the new Cyclones ? It's pretty simple.

First, you can choose what damage you want to deal.

Second, you have one hell of an active tank.

Third, it's not a slowbrick.

Fourth, doesn't look like a Drake.

If you want to solo in this ship, you do the same thing Cyclone pilots already do, except with missiles and 2 utility slots.

Any questions ?

Quote:
But giving it damage instead of optimal means that it'll have the same bonuses as the Moa - instead making the Moa hopelessly obsolete as the Ferox effectively becomes a high-tier cruiser, expressly counter to the principle of tiericide.


Mhmmm...No. The current Merlin has a resistance and damage bonus.

The current Moa has a resistance and damage bonus.

Your logic means "The Moa effectively becomes a high-tier frigate", as it's more powerful than the Moa.

Well, a Ferox with a damage bonus will become more powerful than a Moa, of course. Just like the Hurricane is a more powerful Rupture.

So what ? Battle, cruisers. That's what it says. A cruiser, except that it's bigger and more violent.

Quote:
The cyclone has two utility highs, and it's split weapons for some reason


The Tempest is split weapons too, and no one cares about it. Just stick some neuts/smartbombs in those highs and be done with it. Stop complaining about the split weapons, it doesn't exist on the new Cyclone. Alternatively, it exists on every ship in the game that can fit both launchers and turrets.
Commander Razama
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#456 - 2013-01-09 19:11:36 UTC
STOP ******* WITH MY CANE!!! YOU ALREADY NURFED THE POWER GRID LEAVE IT ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

STOP FIXING STUFF THAT AINT BROKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Freyja Asynjur
Folkvangr
#457 - 2013-01-09 19:14:06 UTC
fenistil wrote:
Freyja Asynjur wrote:
Damn, you guys have no right to mess with the cyclone hull. Evil Missile cyclone ? It's bad, bad, bad, bad...

(also, brutix still broken with its armor rep bonus)


With the extra low on Brutix, it might not be that bad. O_o Guess people going to have to test it :)
Missile Cyclone could be a tad better, maybe 5% more DPS overall but it's not much of a nerf so far. The extra low gives a bit more flexibility to it.

Gang Modules in Utility High? It's got the most CPU of the tier 1 BCs, so why not? It's decent solo and small gang ship EVEN with missiles.


It's a matter of principle, the Cyclone hull has an iconic status in EVE. Who the hell would want a missileboat Cyclone ? Then what, missile Sleipnir/Claymore ? Cry

-
nikon56
UnSkilleD Inc.
#458 - 2013-01-09 19:15:07 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Cyclone:
Battlecruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile rate of fire
7.5% bonus to shield boosting amount
Fixed Bonus:
99% reduction in the CPU need of Warfare Link modules
Slot layout: 7 H (-1), 5 M, 5 L (+1), 2 turrets, 5 Launchers
Fittings: 1200 PWG (-10), 525 CPU (+100)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 4750(+355) / 4000(+94) / 3500(+81)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 2250(+62.5) / 592s(+8.67s) / 3.8 (+0.05)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 165 / 0.704 / 12500000 / 8.2s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 (+10) / 50 (+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 45km / 220 / 6
Sensor strength: 16 Ladar
Signature radius: 250 (+10)
Cargo capacity: 450 (-25)


Hurricane:
Battlecruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
Fixed Bonus:
99% reduction in the CPU need of Warfare Link modules
Slot layout: 7 H (-1), 4 M, 6 L, 6 turrets, 3 Launchers
Fittings: 1125 PWG, 400 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 4250(-47) / 4500(+188) / 3500(-16)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 2250(-562.5) / 592s(-158s) / 3.8 (+0.05)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 165 / 0.704 / 12800000 (+300,000) / 8.4s (+0.2)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 30 / 30
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 45km / 220 / 6
Sensor strength: 16 Ladar
Signature radius: 250 (+10)
Cargo capacity: 425 (-50)

Let me know what you think!

like seriously?

why you hate the matar ships?

you already nerfed the cane last patch, giving us a destro that almost nobody will use because it's missile boat, and now you want to nerf AGAIN the cane, and make the cyclone useless again?

like, seriously?

glad i can fly a myrm, and the drone doesn't take sentrys anymore, from now, no more matar BC except alpha nado, the other two now useless anyway, but sad for the matar only pilots
Edward Pierce
State War Academy
Caldari State
#459 - 2013-01-09 19:15:59 UTC
Lauren Sheaperd wrote:
You know, I heard picking a single nerf from one ship with many that is already in dire straights and comparing it to a ship with few that is one of the most popular, and powerful, ships in the game makes for balanced judgement on the extent of the changes - right? Maybe you need to look at the entirety of the changes, instead focusing on singlular figures?
Perhaps you could elaborate on the other significant nerfs on the Harbinger? The DPS remains the same at BC4, better at BC5. The drop in armor brings it in line with the rest of the BCs leaving it in 3rd place for best base tank stats (Prophecy with 5500 armor, Drake with 5250 shield, then Harbinger with 5000 armor). And the fitting "nerf" is only to compensate for the high slot it no longer has to fit. The only real nerf here is its mass and alignment, which is half of what the Drake is being hit with.

Lauren Sheaperd wrote:
No it doesn't, because nobody fields just three heavy drones. You're math is almost as bad as my broad, sweeping statements. Yes, it is a significant damage bonus - it's doesn't stop this being a relatively 'small' change - and no, the problem with the Myrmidon isn't the lack luster armor rep bonus. Infact, the armor rep bonus combined with the drone bonus is one of the reasons the Myrmidon is a great ship, and will continue to be so.
Good point, most people max out and use 2 heavy 2 medium and 1 light, if you turn that into 3 heavy 2 medium and 1 light it still comes up to a 30% boost in base drone DPS. The armor rep discussion is already being addressed by some unannounced changes to armor repairers that they keep hinting at in this thread.

Lauren Sheaperd wrote:
16% huh? Hows the fitting, with a whole extra blaster though? It doubt even with the slight bonus to fitting you'll be able to practically apply the entirety of the gain. Having another look, I think the most interesting thing about the Ferox change is the significant expansion of it's cargo bay. In the past, it had problems with the number of cap boosters it could hold for active fits.
A fitting module in that extra low would easily allow you to fit that extra turret, so that 16% was a minimum. If you are using Ions or Electrons, you can still fit a damage mod in the lows and get an even bigger bonus.

Lauren Sheaperd wrote:
Not the words! Maybe instead I should have done basic math without considering the entirety of these changes and practical usage to reach a conclusion? Thats how this should be done, right?
More words with no numbers, thanks for your valuable contribution to the thread.

Oh and I see you edited your original post on the Harbinger. Yes 10% damage per level is higher than 5% damage per level. Welcome to a thread about numbers.
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#460 - 2013-01-09 19:18:35 UTC
Karti Aivo wrote:
Please give the Projectile Bonus back to the Clone and exchange both Hurricane Bonuses with Missile crap.
I think we all read now that u want the old hurricane dead, so at least make something useful/different out of it.


No, you aren't turning my Cane in to a missile boat even if it sits in my hanger till the end of Eve... The Clone just needs a 6th missile bay. This dur hur about 2 utility slots doesn't pair up with any of the other BC's at all.