These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
fukier
Gallente Federation
#401 - 2013-01-09 16:59:51 UTC
ConranAntoni wrote:
Oh also the new Prophecy is hilarious as it's current incarnation is, it does less DPS than a vexor but has a tank. So it still stays as a bait boat.

Congratulations, you made a heavier tanked Arbitrator without the EWAR essentially for four times the price.


hmm but what to do?

perhaps increase the drone bay and remove the 10% bonus to drone damage and hp and replace with a 5% bonus to sentry damage and optimal range?

give it 125mb3 and a drone bay of 250m3
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#402 - 2013-01-09 17:00:27 UTC
4LeafClover wrote:

If they are serious about trying to make the Cyclone into a gimpy Drake, then why does it have 2 fewer launcher points? Seriously? Do, or Do Not....there is no Try. If you go half way with this thing you end up with a Quasimodo piece of crap that nobody uses because there are better alternatives on every point.

Just curious but since the Minmatar Command ships also use the Cyclone hull, should we expect to see the Minmatar Command ships forced into being missile boats too?

Basically Minmatar pilots are left with a half-baked Drake in the Cyclone, and a Hurricane that has been castrated then sodomized.

Basically CCP is telling all Minmatar pilots to go screw themselves, and find another class of ship to fly.


Gimpy Drake ?

A ship that can deal up to 650 DPS with no damage-type limitation isn't a gimpy Drake.

That's all that needs to be said about the new Cyclone. It keeps the good active shield tank part, it removes the split weapon system thingy, and you have enough fitting room to make use of those 2 wildcard highslots.

The only thing you are mad about is that it's no longer a turret ship.

Vilnius Zar wrote:
My issue is the Prophecy, just like the Dragoon it seems as if they didn't know wtf to do with it, Proph gets the same ****** bandwidth the Myrm now has and is hated for and while the Myrm can make up for it with a shield tank and blaster damage the Proph has to use its lows to tank so no slots for DDA or bcs/heat sinks. In short, it was the worst and it remains the worst. Well done!


Yes, it has the same bandwidth the Myrmidon now has. Guess what, there are dudes flying Myrmidons right now. And they enjoy it. And it works.

However, you said "The Proph has to use its lows to tank so no slots for DDA etc". Where does it says "I have 7 lowslots and have to use all of them for tanking" ?

Listen up. The current Prophecy has 93k EHP with a plate, 2 EANMs, DC II and trimarks. The new Prophecy will be even better with more armor (+600~) and an additional lowslot/medslot. With 2 DDAs, you'll dish out approximately 450 DPS with a mix of heavy/meds/lights. Don't forget you have one last lowslot to fill, which you can use to support your launchers/turrets.

So let's recapitulate :

New Proph = ~93k EHP, ~550 DPS, 4 medslots.

Let's not forget the triple-rep Prophecy. Yes, it becomes a possibility and I look forward to try it out.

Quote:
In both cases the Harb has a net loss of CPU. And considering that it is even now more or less impossible to fit a Harbinger with the largest medium weapons, the net loss of fitting ressources absolutely crushes this ship.


Agreed. The new Harbinger looks like a cool ship to fly, but Fozzie needs to fix the CPU issue with this ship.

Quote:
Please reconsider the active rep bonus on the Brutix, perhaps a falloff bonus? (could scale up to Hyperion as well)


Mhmmmm I like that. Except that I quite like the Hyperion active tanking bonus, wouldn't like to see it go What?

Quote:
Oh also either give the cane another gun or enough PG to fit a 1600 plate, MWD, 2EANMs and a single medium neut. I don't even fly the things, but without the neuts they're kinda depressing for pvp. A single medium neut would be more than enough to make lots of people happy. Another gun so that it can get decent DPS with its kinda meh tank would make people even happier.


You don't need much PWG to achieve that. You can currently do that with a 2% PWG implant. So, a +20 PWG would do.

Note that 622 DPS for 69k EHP is already very good.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#403 - 2013-01-09 17:00:58 UTC
Overall, I'm loving the changes. Not sure about the dear old cane, but there time to tweek it.

Loving the Cyclone and Prophecy now, not to mention some of the other changes to the rest.

Nice Job

Friends
Mund Richard
#404 - 2013-01-09 17:01:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Steve Bopp wrote:
I agree. I am reading these changes and thinking, what am I supposed to PvE in now? I'm just hoping they don't nerf the tengu the day I sit in it.
But you are not supposed to PvE!
Eve is a harsh place!
Learn to Adapt!
And stuff like that!

erm... where are my meds?
PvE doesn't seem to be that bad, Prophecy can now apply damage and tank like even more of a brick, Drake/Cane is still not horrible like people make it out (plus you get a second Drake), and the Myrm is now almost usable as a sentry platform.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Steve Bopp
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#405 - 2013-01-09 17:07:55 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Steve Bopp wrote:
I agree. I am reading these changes and thinking, what am I supposed to PvE in now? I'm just hoping they don't nerf the tengu the day I sit in it.
But you are not supposed to PvE!
Eve is a harsh place!
Learn to Adapt!
And stuff like that!

erm... where are my meds?
PvE doesn't seem to be that bad, Prophecy can now apply damage and tank like eve more of a brick, Drake/Cane is still not horrible like people make it out, and the Myrm is now almost usable as a sentry platform.



PvE is how I fund my PvP though. Now that you mention it, The Prop and these mysterious triple repper fits sound perfect for a PvE ship. I think I am still recovering from the shock of not getting a buffed Harby like I thought I was going too. Overall I trust CCP.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#406 - 2013-01-09 17:07:56 UTC
can you tripple boost, quad rep the myrmidon already?

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#407 - 2013-01-09 17:14:01 UTC
Jerrek Peacelord wrote:
DONT DROP THE BALL WITH BC's CCP!



Quoting because it needs to be said again. The Frig and cruiser changes and dessie additions were great, these proposed BC changes just seem meh to me.
Mund Richard
#408 - 2013-01-09 17:17:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Steve Bopp wrote:
PvE is how I fund my PvP though. Now that you mention it, The Prop and these mysterious triple repper fits sound perfect for a PvE ship. I think I am still recovering from the shock of not getting a buffed Harby like I thought I was going too. Overall I trust CCP.

Expected a buff to the Harby?
No idea why, it was a tier 2 BC, was sure to get a nerf.
Trip-rep for PvE?
Might consider trying that again, not quite sure why you would.

Trust? I for one don't even trust myself with my food.
It always vanishes.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#409 - 2013-01-09 17:19:50 UTC
Edward Pierce wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
But Fozzie, 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount on both Gallente Battlecruisers?? But we all know how much active armor tanking sucks!! Whatever will you do about this dilemma..... Twisted


Until they make these bonuses apply on all reps (remote reps too), the rep bonus will always be inferior to the passive tank since it can't scale in gangs.


Rather than rep bonus, I'd rather see "armor amount" bonuses . you're right, without the bonus applying to incoming remote reps, it doesn't scale, where as armor amount bonus would be on par with armor resistance bonuses.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#410 - 2013-01-09 17:21:16 UTC
Thomas Hurt wrote:
Interesting to see that the only people the Dev responded to were goons...


Someone stole my tinfoil hat, someone go find it for me.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#411 - 2013-01-09 17:23:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Interesting.

For those who weren't haunting the cruiser threads here last year, it was always Fozzie's intent to buff frigates and cruisers but rein BCs in (yes, including the T3BCs). BCs were a straight upgrade from cruisers, which meant that nobody flew (T1) cruisers, which is both lame and against lore. The point of all this is not just to make all the battlecruisers attractive, but to encourage more people to hop into cruisers.

As for the proposed changes:

Prophecy: the new go-to ship for Amarr PVE, and a decent tanky brawler with ACs missiles (derp) and heavy drones.

Harbinger: WAT. If you want to make it even less tanky and even more ganky, fine, but did it need a double nerf to EHP (one from a straight nerf to defenses, one from the new mass and align time) while still being CPU bound? It wasn't exactly OP before. As it is with these changes, it has a hollow sphere around it in which it's fairly lethal, and if you are outside or inside that sphere it's nearly helpless. Revert the mass and CPU nerfs at the very least. (The buff to cap is nice, though.)

Myrm: Nice. I'll withhold judgment on the active armor bonus until I see what you're doing with active armor.

Brutix: That's... about what it needed. On the conservative side, maybe, but that's in line with the intent here. Happy Brutix pilot is happy.

Ferox: The bonus to optimal range is so that Caldari pilots can choose between an insignificant buff to blaster optimal or an insignificant buff to LOL medium railguns? I hope you're planning to do something with medium rails, because otherwise I don't get it.

Drake: So you've basically baked the current meta into the bonuses, making the Drake completely predictable. Hmm. It already had that problem; I'm not sure what the motive is in exacerbating it. But see, this is the kind of ship where a mass increase makes sense. It's a brick, it can survive the lower transversal.

'Cane: Never flown one, but eyeballing it, it looks to be in line with the other BCs now. I never understood why it had so much capacitor.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Mund Richard
#412 - 2013-01-09 17:23:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Jenn aSide wrote:
Rather than rep bonus, I'd rather see "armor amount" bonuses . you're right, without the bonus applying to incoming remote reps, it doesn't scale, where as armor amount bonus would be on par with armor resistance bonuses.

How?
Resist bonuses add their weight for local, remote rep, and buffer.
A +amount only adds buffer (and time buffer for logi to lock you and land reps in case of armor).
You just swap around getting bonus to one tanking method to another, while resist still does it to all 3.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Tennessee Jack
Doomheim
#413 - 2013-01-09 17:25:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tennessee Jack
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Shasz wrote:

Comparing the Prophecy to the Myrmidon - other than bait tanking, why would I fly the Prophecy?

Same 5 un-bonused high slots (and the Prophecy has to split at least 1 weapon system to use the 5)
Myrm gets superior bandwidth.

For DPS potential, the Myrm wins hands down.

The Poorphecy gets more drone flexibility (bigger bay), and better ability to fit an armor tank and drone damage mods (+1 low slot), but I don't see those as a good reason to choose it if I'm fitting a drone BC.





Because the proph can easily field a 110k ehp tank?


Because you can fit the Prophecy to do anything.

Missile boat.. prophecy
Blaster boat.. prophecy
AC boat.. prophecy
Neut boat.. prophecy
Drone boat.. prophecy
Support boat.. prophecy
Torpedo boat.. prophecy
Any damage type boat.. prophecy

Screw the missing on-ship damage bonus to type of weapon... the bonus is that it can use any weapon damage type, run a potentially capless tank and damage type of your choice, and field essential Battlecruiser version of the dominix dronebay. Its a armor tanked Myrmidon with more options. Less damage than a Myrmidon.. yep. More options than a Myrmidon.. yup.

You see a Myrmidon on Dscan.. you know its probably fielding heavy drones, potentially shield fit, and Hybrid weapons (KInetic/Thermal).

You see a Prophecy on Dscan, you have no fking clue if it has Blasters, Rails, Drone damage Units or Damage Mods, a 160+K ehp tank, or running HAMS, Rockets, Artillery, the type of drones it runs, how many it has, or what they could have in their extra mid slot, be it ECM, Disruptors, Boosters, or a MWD and Afterburner. You have no Fracking clue what that ship has on it. You do know that he won't have lasers on him (whoop de do), and will be a @$)#*( to kill.

A Prophecy with 20 Medium Drones. A set of drones for Every Drone Damage Type, and Highslots with ammo for every Damage Type.... if he knows which ship you fly, he has the armament to hit you in the weakest slot. There goes his damage bonus. 5 Infiltrator Medium EM Damage Drones and EM Ammo to blow up your shields, then 5 Medium Valkyrie Explosive Damage Drones and Explosive Ammo to blow up your armor... all of that in a T1 BC with a Potential 100K+ EHP Armor tank... and your complaining about no damage bonus on the ship?

The Prophecy is not a ship for braindead people who just want to Launch Everything at a blinky and pray. You have to see what the blinky is flying, and know their ships. You'll live long enough in the New Prophecy.
Exterminatus Illexis
Unmarked Discrete Packaging.
#414 - 2013-01-09 17:25:49 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Edward Pierce wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
But Fozzie, 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount on both Gallente Battlecruisers?? But we all know how much active armor tanking sucks!! Whatever will you do about this dilemma..... Twisted


Until they make these bonuses apply on all reps (remote reps too), the rep bonus will always be inferior to the passive tank since it can't scale in gangs.


Rather than rep bonus, I'd rather see "armor amount" bonuses . you're right, without the bonus applying to incoming remote reps, it doesn't scale, where as armor amount bonus would be on par with armor resistance bonuses.


I can't tell if that's stupidity or you're actually oblivious.

A single augoror with 3 reps can RR 800dps

A Myrmidon with 2 local can rep 340 ish as a norm.

that's 1140 dps tanked right there if you include local ability. Not only that an augoror can switch to combat cap teammates, meaning that the Myrm can perma run its local reppers.

Now if you have two augorors, that's 1940 dps tanked. Three, that's 3740. Four, that's 4040.

Math, use it.

With love,

Your favorite idiot.
4LeafClover
ONTAP
Goonswarm Federation
#415 - 2013-01-09 17:32:36 UTC  |  Edited by: 4LeafClover
SMT008 wrote:


Gimpy Drake ?

A ship that can deal up to 650 DPS with no damage-type limitation isn't a gimpy Drake.

That's all that needs to be said about the new Cyclone. It keeps the good active shield tank part, it removes the split weapon system thingy, and you have enough fitting room to make use of those 2 wildcard highslots.

The only thing you are mad about is that it's no longer a turret ship.




Please link whatever fit you are using, because even with perfect missile skills (which few Minmatar pilots have) I can't come close to 650 DPS. And fit anything else.

"... the split weapon system thingy,..." That right there tells me that you have never flown one.
Mund Richard
#416 - 2013-01-09 17:34:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Exterminatus Illexis wrote:
I can't tell if that's stupidity or you're actually oblivious.
A single augoror with 3 reps can RR 800dps
A Myrmidon with 2 local can rep 340 ish as a norm.
that's 1140 dps tanked right there if you include local ability. Not only that an augoror can switch to combat cap teammates, meaning that the Myrm can perma run its local reppers.
Now if you have two augorors, that's 1940 dps tanked. Three, that's 3740. Four, that's 4040.
Math, use it.

I can't tell if you are serious, or I'm missing something.
Myrm: 6 lows, local rep bonus.
Prophecy: 7 lows, +5% resist bonus.

Any incoming rep on the Prophecy is 25% better than on the myrm, and it has an extra low to make it even better still!
In your example, the 800 RR already translates into 200 extra on a Prophecy. With two remote reppers on, it achieves much more than the 340 you gave for a Myrm just sitting still for being what it is, compared to a Myrm burning 2 reppers and cap!
With every Auguror added (why the **** are we adding augurors?) the difference between the two just becomes greater and greater.

Or are you arguing for local rep bonuses to include remote reps as well?

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
killorbekilled TBE
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#417 - 2013-01-09 17:34:55 UTC
CCP slowly back away from the BC's ........ please, before you break something

:)
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#418 - 2013-01-09 17:37:13 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Let's not forget the triple-rep Prophecy. Yes, it becomes a possibility and I look forward to try it out.
Basic
Why are statements like this even made? Surely I'm not the only one who can see that it's horribly broken that you need three local armor reps to even keep up with a single XL-ASB?? And even think about fitting an oversize armor repper? Forget about it.

Even trying to fit a single oversize repper would require so much power grid that it just isn't tenable. Yet, oversize shield boosters are relatively easy to fit.

I'm not advocating homogeny to the point where the two systems are the same, but damn...something on closer parity is in order!

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#419 - 2013-01-09 17:39:51 UTC
Exterminatus Illexis wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Edward Pierce wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
But Fozzie, 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount on both Gallente Battlecruisers?? But we all know how much active armor tanking sucks!! Whatever will you do about this dilemma..... Twisted


Until they make these bonuses apply on all reps (remote reps too), the rep bonus will always be inferior to the passive tank since it can't scale in gangs.


Rather than rep bonus, I'd rather see "armor amount" bonuses . you're right, without the bonus applying to incoming remote reps, it doesn't scale, where as armor amount bonus would be on par with armor resistance bonuses.


I can't tell if that's stupidity or you're actually oblivious.

A single augoror with 3 reps can RR 800dps

A Myrmidon with 2 local can rep 340 ish as a norm.

that's 1140 dps tanked right there if you include local ability. Not only that an augoror can switch to combat cap teammates, meaning that the Myrm can perma run its local reppers.

Now if you have two augorors, that's 1940 dps tanked. Three, that's 3740. Four, that's 4040.

Math, use it.


Someone has never ever been in a fleet fight I see. How good is that local rep when you are MWDing and getting neuted? Do you even understand why active tanks (of either kind) aren't used in fleet engagements at all?

Wow, 1940 dps, thats like what 4 or 5 fleet abaddons worth of dps! , so it only takes 3 ships and a local rep to tank 4-5 ships when the FLLEt your fighting has about 50 of them.

Brilliant.

Amount and resistance bonuses are the fleet fight bonuses, the discussion was about making more BCs useful to fleets, active tanking is and has always been useless in fleet warfare.
Zi'el Aubaris
Mind Games.
Suddenly Spaceships.
#420 - 2013-01-09 17:40:14 UTC
On the Hurricane, I cant say anything else anyone else must have already said in the previous 21 pages.

but why, god, why? the hurricane was BEAUTIFUL. For lowsec solo'ing it was the only ship that could take on your standard OP drake, for small gang fights it was the only thing that could take on the OP drakefleets. For giant ass faction warfare hundreds aside. You could fit all the weapon slots with weapons, and not be 2 guns worth of powergrid short, even WITHOUT Any kind of utility or missile launcher in the high. You could fit a full rack of 425mm autocannon II's, WMD with web, long point & scan res loaded sensor booster, AND one (or two) 1600mm's with 2EANM's and a few gyrostabilisers.... as I said, was basically the only thing could take on a drake, while taking f*cking gate guns. Why nerf it so damn hard, it wasnt THAT overpowered!