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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#381 - 2013-01-09 16:04:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
Can we quickly talk about active armor tank and drones?

The reason I bring this up is that Gallente as a whole are in a funny place due to recent NPC AI change and drones sucking in general. With each rebalance, the number of drone boats grows. Last patch added 3 (?) drone boats. Upcoming patch will add 1 more (Prophecy). And yet, no drone fixes have been mentioned. In fact, CCP completely avoids ANY topic with a word "drone" in it like it's got cooties. What's up? It's a little difficult to judge ship balance without knowing if anything will be done, and if so, what?

The reason I mention armor tank is that now it seems both Gallente BCs under review get the same active armor tank bonus. Which is fine, if active armor tank is getting reviewed as well. But if not, you're essentially crippling 2/3rds of Gallente BC lineup with this stuff for many/most in-game applications. Similar to drones, the topic gets studiously avoided by all CCP staff. Again, hard to judge what will happen to these hulls without knowing if any changes are planned, or what they may be.

Or is the approach going to be to change the ships first to rely on a mechanic that won't be fixed for a while yet? That seems very counter-intuitive, as ships like Myrmidon will suffer VERY badly for it - this hull has to deal with the drone issue AND the active armor tank imbalance.

Any thoughts? Besides "we'll look into it between now and the heat death of the universe", I mean.
anids
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#382 - 2013-01-09 16:05:23 UTC
why nurf the BC's??? seriously they fun to fly :( just change bonus's and reskin cycloen/drake....drake 7 lanucher fit tight as it is give it +10 grid.......wtb less nurf on the cane :( hate u ccp
ConranAntoni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#383 - 2013-01-09 16:07:09 UTC
Oh also the new Prophecy is hilarious as it's current incarnation is, it does less DPS than a vexor but has a tank. So it still stays as a bait boat.

Congratulations, you made a heavier tanked Arbitrator without the EWAR essentially for four times the price.

Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now.
Mund Richard
#384 - 2013-01-09 16:12:09 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Can we quickly talk about active armor tank and drones?
[...]
Any thoughts? Besides "we'll look into it between now and the heat death of the universe", I mean.

You just chased Fozzie away even from here. Sad

Expected some nice DevPost on armor after the post Hans dropped on page one, still expecting it.
Drones... Also still expecting it!

One thing I'm not quite sure about...
Why are both missile users shield based, and both drone users armor based?

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Maria Blick
Blick Family Enterprises
#385 - 2013-01-09 16:14:24 UTC
Ferox needs a hybrid damage bonus like the moa. Medium rails have no use case where they outperform large rails on a naga.

The myrmidon needs to become a dedicated drone boat. Just give it back the full 125m3 bandwidth, and instead take away the ability to fit weapon hardpoints.
Tragot Gomndor
Three Sword Inc
#386 - 2013-01-09 16:17:23 UTC
Ferox:
i dont think the two bonuses work together... shield resistance means more hitpoints, more useable for blaster brawls than railgun sniping... sniping dont need bonus tank... and the naga is allready the sniper, no need for two snipers...

Drake:
that ship has the lowest damage bonus of them all, only working for 1 damage type... maybe change the +kinetic to +rof or even make it +kinetic to all missile types, including light missiles and rockets, turning drake to an anti-frigate platform like the (new) prophecy and myrmidon with small drones... maybe doing the same for the cyclone...

Myrmidon/Brutix:
armor local rep is good for pve and thats all... fix local rep


that doenst belong here but:

EXEQUROR:
that ship has more ehp when fitting a shield tank than an armor tank and thats just wrong (both fits cap stable)...
ccp should consider to buff armor all together...

NONONONONONO TO CAPS IN HIGHSEC NO
Steve Bopp
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#387 - 2013-01-09 16:18:23 UTC
Based on the changes that they are making I think they are trying to separate cruisers and battle cruisers more. It looks like battle cruisers are becoming more skill intensive to encourage specialization.

I was not expecting the Harbinger losing HP though... Maybe they'll rework active armor tanking though? It's a shame that to get close to cap stable in an Amarr PvE ship and get a good repair amount you need to pop for a deadspace Rep a lot of the time. I would LOVE a cap reduction in Active Armor Reps for amarr ships.
Shasz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#388 - 2013-01-09 16:20:35 UTC

Comparing the Prophecy to the Myrmidon - other than bait tanking, why would I fly the Prophecy?

Same 5 un-bonused high slots (and the Prophecy has to split at least 1 weapon system to use the 5)
Myrm gets superior bandwidth.

For DPS potential, the Myrm wins hands down.

The Poorphecy gets more drone flexibility (bigger bay), and better ability to fit an armor tank and drone damage mods (+1 low slot), but I don't see those as a good reason to choose it if I'm fitting a drone BC.
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#389 - 2013-01-09 16:21:41 UTC
Tennessee Jack wrote:
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
Tennessee Jack wrote:
I'll comment directly on the Prophecy.

Prophecy.
WiIl it now perform better than the Myrmidon.. probably with exceptions. The prophecy has now turned into the wildcard ship. It will be an armor tank, but now it has complete access to every weapon system and every damage type. Yes it is unbonused on the hull, but you can fit any type of turret AND any type of missile. Hell you can set the ship to be a blaster boat, an Artillery ship, a Missile boat... and it now has drone access and the option for another Mid slot (which it desperately needed). If you think of your fleet being all shields.. yes the prophecy sucks.. you run an armor fleet though and the thing is now one of the best boats out there. You gain no damage bonus to turrets, but now you can shoot every ammo type, at multiple ranges, and field any type of drone you like. Prophecy, great versatile ship for armor fleets.


But it gets an additional low slot, so you could just fit one more damage mod. It's effectively a 4%/Level bonus (if you have BC V) for the weapon of your choice.

Will there be a graphic update of the prophecy to give it -as a droneboat now- more visible dronebays?


Agreed with your comments on the additional low slot essentially being its damage bonus, but don't change the visual of the Prophecy. Its iconic chicken head is really what makes the ship, and is one of the most widely viewed (visual) ships in the beginning of the Eve game.


OMG, don't get me wrong...I LOVE how the Proph looks.
I just thought about adding some discreet dronebays, maybe somewhere under its belly. I am NOT advocating a total redesign of mah luvely golden chickin...

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#390 - 2013-01-09 16:22:59 UTC
Shasz wrote:

Comparing the Prophecy to the Myrmidon - other than bait tanking, why would I fly the Prophecy?

Same 5 un-bonused high slots (and the Prophecy has to split at least 1 weapon system to use the 5)
Myrm gets superior bandwidth.

For DPS potential, the Myrm wins hands down.

The Poorphecy gets more drone flexibility (bigger bay), and better ability to fit an armor tank and drone damage mods (+1 low slot), but I don't see those as a good reason to choose it if I'm fitting a drone BC.





Because the proph can easily field a 110k ehp tank?

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

El 1974
Green Visstick High
#391 - 2013-01-09 16:25:43 UTC
Without getting into details, I feel that each race should have 1 ship with bonuses usefull for pve/solo and one with bonuses usefull for pvp. Now this all seems too random to me. The pvp ships should be usefull for short range engagements as the tier III's are more suitable for long range engagements due to their lacking tank.
I don't think tier II battlecruisers deserve such a nerf after their role in pvp is already slowly but certainly being taken over by tech I cruisers.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#392 - 2013-01-09 16:28:23 UTC
El 1974 wrote:
Without getting into details, I feel that each race should have 1 ship with bonuses usefull for pve/solo and one with bonuses usefull for pvp. Now this all seems too random to me. The pvp ships should be usefull for short range engagements as the tier III's are more suitable for long range engagements due to their lacking tank.
I don't think tier II battlecruisers deserve such a nerf after their role in pvp is already slowly but certainly being taken over by tech I cruisers.



PVE is **** easy, you don't need a ship designed for it.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Tort Funaila
Anvil and Sons
#393 - 2013-01-09 16:29:05 UTC
Sad to ser the Drake and Cane are no longer useful, larger engagements were already almost entirely t3's. Not suprising of course. The Harby nerf is disappointing too. My biggest beef is the Ferox though. Give it a damage bonus; it will never out snipe a naga but could be a useful brawler if bonused for it.

sigpic?
Exterminatus Illexis
Unmarked Discrete Packaging.
#394 - 2013-01-09 16:30:22 UTC
I like the complaints about the ferox, but if you look at its power grid you can't fit a full rack of the largest rails and an adequate tank while keeping anything in the ways of signature radius being small or the ship itself being fast. As a kiting blaster boat, the thing will be brilliant tho. Which I approve of.

As for the Brutix: Like said earlier in the thread give it a higher rep bonus, slash the one extra low slot(it already gets high enough resists already and can pump out a stupid amount of DPS with that extra low) and give it a 10% rep bonus since it doesn't have enough PG to fit a full rack of neutrons and more than one rep. Also buff its speed a little bit and give it one extra mid for a second web maybe, the biggest issue with the thing is that it can't get in range of anything in time and even when it does the ship is too slow that if your opponent has a web they can draw it out of your range too. And we all know how good a range blasters get, don't we!

Aside from that, nerf the prophecy tank a bit. Maybe a 3.5% resist bonus, one less low and less power grid. Since neuts are popular on drone boats and the Arbitrator doesn't have a neut bonus, give it a neut/nos range bonus. An neut/nos drain/amount bonus would be far too overpowered, however if you nerf the PG enough that it can only fit one 1600 plate, get all resists just shy of 70% without faction fit and keep the EHP in line with a Drake(80k EHP in the armor in this case) at which point this ship becomes desirable for a role other than bait. Because really, right now it can get 100k ehp+ it doesn't need that extra low. As is it's just going to be a buffer Myrmidon, only more desirable since it can get a monstrous buffer tank and hold out against a gang for even longer. And on that note, nerf the drone bandwidth. Follow suit with the track you've been taking thus far, give it enough bay to put out 2-3 replacement wings but not enough bandwidth to put out the firepower of gallente drone boats.

With love,

Your favorite idiot.
Eli Green
The Arrow Project
#395 - 2013-01-09 16:35:42 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
First, let me say: Don't touch my Cyclone. Now I'll read your post.

-Liang


This, the current ingame layout makes it perfect for brawling ASB shenanigans, HM/Arty sniping as well as a crazy very limited use spidertanking setup. in other words, do not remove its versatility

wumbo
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#396 - 2013-01-09 16:38:18 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
But Fozzie, 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount on both Gallente Battlecruisers?? But we all know how much active armor tanking sucks!! Whatever will you do about this dilemma..... Twisted

Ancillary Armor Repairers, coming to a gallente battlecruiser near you SOON!

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Mund Richard
#397 - 2013-01-09 16:41:07 UTC
Skippermonkey wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
But Fozzie, 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount on both Gallente Battlecruisers?? But we all know how much active armor tanking sucks!! Whatever will you do about this dilemma..... Twisted

Ancillary Armor Repairers, coming to a gallente battlecruiser near you SOON!

But with a max online modul 1 limit, and no oversizing. Roll

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Arec Bardwin
#398 - 2013-01-09 16:48:41 UTC
Please reconsider the active rep bonus on the Brutix, perhaps a falloff bonus? (could scale up to Hyperion as well).

Drake still has kin damage bonus?
Exterminatus Illexis
Unmarked Discrete Packaging.
#399 - 2013-01-09 16:48:51 UTC
Oh also either give the cane another gun or enough PG to fit a 1600 plate, MWD, 2EANMs and a single medium neut. I don't even fly the things, but without the neuts they're kinda depressing for pvp. A single medium neut would be more than enough to make lots of people happy. Another gun so that it can get decent DPS with its kinda meh tank would make people even happier.

Or possibly turn it into a shield tanking specialized ship, that would be nice.

With love,

Your favorite idiot.
Steve Bopp
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#400 - 2013-01-09 16:54:01 UTC
El 1974 wrote:
Without getting into details, I feel that each race should have 1 ship with bonuses usefull for pve/solo and one with bonuses usefull for pvp. Now this all seems too random to me. The pvp ships should be usefull for short range engagements as the tier III's are more suitable for long range engagements due to their lacking tank.
I don't think tier II battlecruisers deserve such a nerf after their role in pvp is already slowly but certainly being taken over by tech I cruisers.


I agree. I am reading these changes and thinking, what am I supposed to PvE in now? I'm just hoping they don't nerf the tengu the day I sit in it.