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[Retribution 1.1] Combat Battlecruisers

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kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#301 - 2013-01-09 11:36:17 UTC
I dislike that CCP wants everyone to fly the same fit. I want to fly a shield cane. Thats out of the question with these changes. Recently bought a cyclone, hope i can find someone dumb enough to buy it. All in all im happy ive been training amarr, looks like its going to be neccesary. Want to fly gunboats, stop making minmatar a weird caldari hybrid.
Johnny Aideron
Order of Rouvenor
#302 - 2013-01-09 11:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Aideron
Do you have any changes in mind for medium railguns?

A while back I made a thread about how the DPS of T1 hybrid ammo drops off too much as you use longer ranged ammo:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2108228#post2108228
Johan March
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#303 - 2013-01-09 11:57:19 UTC
I'm still digesting this but what jumps out at me is the Gallente armor repper bonus. Perhaps good for PVE or extremely small gang PVP, anything larger than a few ships it becomes a bit of a waste, especially with the very welcome changes to T1 logistics.

Perhaps a bonus to Armor HP (scaled so they're not overpowered) to contrast with the Amarr resist bonus would be better to allow the Gallente battlecruisers more flexibility for both PVP and PVE.
Kiliv
Belt Raider Inc.
Wrecking Machine.
#304 - 2013-01-09 12:15:36 UTC
Johan March wrote:
I'm still digesting this but what jumps out at me is the Gallente armor repper bonus. Perhaps good for PVE or extremely small gang PVP, anything larger than a few ships it becomes a bit of a waste, especially with the very welcome changes to T1 logistics.

Perhaps a bonus to Armor HP (scaled so they're not overpowered) to contrast with the Amarr resist bonus would be better to allow the Gallente battlecruisers more flexibility for both PVP and PVE.



This, the rep bonus does not work well in pvp, change the Brutix to have 2 damage bonus's or a useful tank bonus like resist or hp per level.

Director of Operations & Logistics for Lumodynamics Power Control Corp.

Panda Cave Diplomat.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#305 - 2013-01-09 12:22:15 UTC
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:
I dislike that CCP wants everyone to fly the same fit. I want to fly a shield cane. Thats out of the question with these changes. Recently bought a cyclone, hope i can find someone dumb enough to buy it. All in all im happy ive been training amarr, looks like its going to be neccesary. Want to fly gunboats, stop making minmatar a weird caldari hybrid.



Your Cane is fine, stop being bad.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

S1dy
Uplifting Infernal Paradise
#306 - 2013-01-09 12:25:02 UTC
For me, there's still some konsistency missing.

First, i would love to see the "99% reduction in the CPU need of Warfare Link modules" removed from Harbinger, Drake, Myrmidon and Hurricane. While i guess there are maybe plans for new T2 ships with Warfare Boni Roles based on these 4 Battlecruisers, there are currently only T2 ships based on Prophecy, Ferox, Brutix and Cyclone. So here needs to be some role konsistency.

Second, it's not visible yet that both battlecruisers should fill in the combat role. If you want to get them in the same role, give them the same defense boni and differ the offensive boni. For example, you gave Ferox and Drake both "5% bonus to all Shield Resistances" but while the Prophecy gets a similar defense bonus, the Harbinger got "10% bonus Medium Energy Turret capacitor use". Again, there's konsistency missing.
I appreciate the idea of getting them both the same role and make them slightly different to fill in dedicated niches, but at one point they must be similar. Because when not, they aren't for the same role.

Third, there's still the all over critisized ferox bonus "10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range". That must be changed into something more useful, like Tracking or Rate of Fire. No one needs a bonus for optimal range, not even for sniping with railguns. The optimal is far to short with hybrid weapons, even with bonus so it effects nearly no battle.

But i like the idea of getting 1 turret slot and 1 low slot more. That makes the Ferox a lot more powerful. And even the rest of changes look healthy and well thought. Waiting to be able to test them on the testserver.
Iogrim
Matterhorn.
#307 - 2013-01-09 12:26:26 UTC
Triple-rep Myrmidon is alright, but Gallente definitely doesn't need 2 active rep bonused ships. Tracking bonus makes most sense.

For those who want damage bonus on Ferox - shut up. The thing gets extra turret and will do ~700 DPS while maintaining decent tank, with 5% damage bonus that would be almost ~900. Way too much for Battlecruiser.
Mund Richard
#308 - 2013-01-09 12:28:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Edward Pierce wrote:
Lauren Sheaperd wrote:
Oh cool, the Myrmidon gets a small drones bonus. This is small but I rather like it. I'm not sure how much this will change, but I like it (despite having too horrible drone skills to test it out myself).
Being able to field an extra heavy or sentry drone is not a "small drones bonus" it adds an extra 33% to its drone DPS. The real problem here keeps being the lackluster armor rep bonus.
Lauren Sheaperd wrote:
Hey! A small, but very cool, bonus to the Ferox. I'm not too sure on the impact this will have, but it might actually allow for some more flexibility in the fits. I'm interested in how this will turn out at the very least.
An extra turret (16% DPS bonus) and an extra low can hardly be considered a small bonus. It still has a lot to ask for when compared to the Brutix or the Talos/Naga though.
You really should have held back that :words: post until you did a little more math so you could make some valid points.
"until you did a little more math"
Always wanted to do the math behind weird drone bays, it's what makes me.... *ahem*

No mod, drone hull at V and using T2 Gallente drones:
75mbps with 2/2/1 config: 315 <- so we had this before
100mbps with 4/0/0 config: 380
100mbps with 3/2/0 config: 380 again!
4 Gardes: 360

So that +33% is, unless my calculator is failing me, in fact ~21% rounded up at best.
Going from 5 to 6 turrets would be a +20% buff as well, so the loss of one would be quite bad, if it had a bonus to them. Roll

For the sake of comparison, same deal with Minnie ones:
75mbps with 2/2/1 config: 256
100mbps with 4/0/0 config: 309
100mbps with 3/2/0 config: 309 again, and the same ~21% increase again
4 Bouncers: 315, which in this case is more than the running-around types after months and months of T2 spec training.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Moonasha
Orcses and Goblinz
#309 - 2013-01-09 12:36:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonasha
Why not give the proph a missile bonus and more launcher slots? As much as I love drone boats, it seems underwhelming without a neut bonus or some other utility. It's still going to be a fat useless piece of crap. I mean seriously, it's gonna do the same DPS as an arbitrator :/ With a little more tank, and no tracking disruptor. I guess the prohp will become a medium neut boat anyways. Unbonused guns and missiles suck

edit : also, 75 bandwidth is useless, people are either gonna use 50 or 25! Make the damage bonus better, like 12.5 as other people said~
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#310 - 2013-01-09 12:36:14 UTC
Johnny Aideron wrote:
Do you have any changes in mind for medium railguns?

A while back I made a thread about how the DPS of T1 hybrid ammo drops off too much as you use longer ranged ammo:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2108228#post2108228



The problem with railguns is tracking enhancers + projectiles is overpowered.

I'll be in this thread sperging about t2 ammo and TEs until the end.
S1dy
Uplifting Infernal Paradise
#311 - 2013-01-09 12:40:01 UTC
Iogrim wrote:
Triple-rep Myrmidon is alright, but Gallente definitely doesn't need 2 active rep bonused ships. Tracking bonus makes most sense.

For those who want damage bonus on Ferox - shut up. The thing gets extra turret and will do ~700 DPS while maintaining decent tank, with 5% damage bonus that would be almost ~900. Way too much for Battlecruiser.


Next time better read what others write. What i was saying, was to get both variants konsistent if they should fill in the same role. Whether it's the offensive or the defense bonus that's the same on both ships is not important. Important is the konsistency.

The same with the Ferox bonus. I said there should be a better bonus. What bonus is not important. Important is a useful bonus and not crap like bonus to optimal range.
But while you wrote about the "too much " damage with bonus just compare it with the damage that makes the Brutix. It does far more. But it's ok that the Brutix does more. On the downside it tanks lesser than the Ferox and so they are both well balanced.

Nevertheless, my hole point was to get them more konsistent. And next time read others comments before you post anything.
Mund Richard
#312 - 2013-01-09 12:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Mund Richard wrote:
So that +33% is, unless my calculator is failing me, in fact ~21% rounded up at best.
Going from 5 to 6 turrets would be a +20% buff as well, so the loss of one would be quite bad, if it had a bonus to them. Roll
In fact, without keeping the tripple-rep myrm in mind, just going for pure raw OOOMPH with the current version, no +damage mods:
6 T2 Heavy Neutron Blasters, void ammo: 335 dps
75 mbps' worth of drones: 315
Total: 650
New version: 660 (+1.5%Roll)

Of course, that's not easily applied damage, so only EFT warrioring.
Also, if someone tripple reps it, he won't have a full rack of T2 neutrons on it I imagine...

What this change does "help" with, is making magstabs less attractive for the ship, enforcing it's role as drone ship, unlike the Dominix where blasters+heavies or rails and sentries double bonus looks sweet (on paper).
(Remembered the guy posting videos with LMJD shield tanked Domi.)

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Iogrim
Matterhorn.
#313 - 2013-01-09 12:41:47 UTC
S1dy wrote:
Next time better read what others write. What i was saying, was to get both variants konsistent if they should fill in the same role. Whether it's the offensive or the defense bonus that's the same on both ships is not important. Important is the konsistency.

The same with the Ferox bonus. I said there should be a better bonus. What bonus is not important. Important is a useful bonus and not crap like bonus to optimal range.
But while you wrote about the "too much " damage with bonus just compare it with the damage that makes the Brutix. It does far more. But it's ok that the Brutix does more. On the downside it tanks lesser than the Ferox and so they are both well balanced.

Nevertheless, my hole point was to get them more konsistent. And next time read others comments before you post anything.


Was not replying to you. Don't let the door hit you on your way out though.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#314 - 2013-01-09 12:45:39 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:

So that +33% is, unless my calculator is failing me, in fact ~21% rounded up at best.
Going from 5 to 6 turrets would be a +20% buff as well, so the loss of one would be quite bad, if it had a bonus to them. Roll
In fact, without keeping the tripple-rep myrm in mind, just going for pure raw OOOMPH with the current version, no +damage mods:
6 T2 Heavy Neutron Blasters, void ammo: 335 dps
75 mbps' worth of drones: 315
Total: 650
New version: 660 (+1.5%Roll)

Of course, that's not easily applied damage, so only EFT warrioring.
Also, if someone tripple reps it, he won't have a full rack of T2 neutrons on it I imagine...

What this change does "help" with, is making magstabs less attractive for the ship, enforcing it's role as drone ship, unlike the Dominix where blasters+heavies or rails and sentries double bonus looks sweet (on paper).
(Remembered the guy posting videos with LMJD shield tanked Domi.)

On a related note, the theoritical max damage on a myrmidon is only 65 dps away form the vexor, the damage difference between a brutix and a thorax is 140dps

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#315 - 2013-01-09 12:54:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Looks good at first glance although I am a bit worried about the brick nature of the Prophecy. Had expected you to complete the Abaddon line (Punisher/Maller/.../Abaddon) and give it damage/resist .. the proposed layout+bonuses screams 'bricked frigate cleanser' which is a niche as wide as the grand canyon these days.

Regarding active armour tank bonuses: Perhaps staying the complaints until the plan for active tank revisions are put forward is in order. We know it is coming.

Regarding Cyclone: Split weapon system, what?!? It is getting a RoF bonus and has significantly higher launcher count than gun ditto .. "Split weapon .." is roughly equal or equal count with bonuses to both (ie. Typhoon) .. or it used to be and truth be told it is the only definition that makes sense
Nyalnara
Marauder Initiative
#316 - 2013-01-09 12:56:56 UTC
Torri Bernard wrote:
What you are doing to the prophecy is an abomination. Didnt you get the hint when no one flew the myrmadon? Drone boat battlecruisers are horrible ideas. Add in the nerf to the harbinger and its likely no one will fly amarr ever again.


Ever heard of shield Myrmidon? You can deal more than 850 dps (assuming you got all lvl5 skills)... The real problem of drone boats is not the drone part, it's the armor tanking, since it reduce DPS... (And i'm not shield-tanking that one. It would just be stupid.)

About the Harbinger: it is NOT nerfed, you just failed to see the buff...
And no ones use amarr ships in PVP anyway, lasers use way too much capacitor... Only amarr ships i saw those last months were sniper Oracles, & projectile- turret stations...



Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
4LeafClover wrote:
Have you ever flown a typhoon? Don't worry if you haven't, nobody else does either...the reason is a split weapon system...you only get a bonus to 4 turret slots? And just try to fit 3 gyros, and 3 ballistic controls in the lows.....useless.


Wouldn't be awesome if the devs were going to revamp battleships too? I think it would. Cool


They said they will... Later...Blink



Torri Bernard wrote:
Amarr has as many missile boats as drone boats. Also, go fly a prophecy in a goon fleet and see how long you make it before they laugh you out and make you take a picture with a plunger on your head. (you can try this before or after the change and you'll get the same result)


:goonies: Roll

French half-noob.

Non, je ne suis pas gentil.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#317 - 2013-01-09 12:57:30 UTC
Admit it, you want something other than rep bonus on your brutix just so you can shield fit it better and shoot null everywhere. Disgusting.
Mund Richard
#318 - 2013-01-09 13:00:10 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
On a related note, the theoritical max damage on a myrmidon is only 65 dps away form the vexor
Which is coincidentally just as much as what it gets from the +25 bandwidth.
5 unbonused guns = 4 bonused on the Vexor.

Iogrim wrote:
For those who want damage bonus on Ferox - shut up. The thing gets extra turret and will do ~700 DPS while maintaining decent tank, with 5% damage bonus that would be almost ~900. Way too much for Battlecruiser.
I'm not sure all who wanted the +5% damage bonus meant it on top of the 7 turrets.
6*1,25 would be 7,5s worth of unbonused ones.
It was what Ytterbium proposed earler here
Although at the cost of loosing the tank bonus.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Mund Richard
#319 - 2013-01-09 13:06:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Admit it, you want something other than rep bonus on your brutix just so you can shield fit it better and shoot null everywhere. Disgusting.

I admit I'd like either the Ferox or the Brutix to be suited for that.
At the moment, there is no shield blaster BC, even though TWO empires field hybrid weaponry.
Which means two medium hybrid BCs.
One is forced to active tank, the other gets no damage bonus and an optimum to force rails on it, as blasters have too short optimal compared to falloff.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Sigras
Conglomo
#320 - 2013-01-09 13:06:31 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:
So that +33% is, unless my calculator is failing me, in fact ~21% rounded up at best.
Going from 5 to 6 turrets would be a +20% buff as well, so the loss of one would be quite bad, if it had a bonus to them. Roll
In fact, without keeping the tripple-rep myrm in mind, just going for pure raw OOOMPH with the current version, no +damage mods:
6 T2 Heavy Neutron Blasters, void ammo: 335 dps
75 mbps' worth of drones: 315
Total: 650
New version: 660 (+1.5%Roll)

Of course, that's not easily applied damage, so only EFT warrioring.
Also, if someone tripple reps it, he won't have a full rack of T2 neutrons on it I imagine...

What this change does "help" with, is making magstabs less attractive for the ship, enforcing it's role as drone ship, unlike the Dominix where blasters+heavies or rails and sentries double bonus looks sweet (on paper).
(Remembered the guy posting videos with LMJD shield tanked Domi.)

#1. your 33% number is using a 2/2/1 configuration . . . most people for simplicity sake used 3 heavies which do 285 DPS which means the ship does exactly 33% more drone DPS. Yes optimal configuration is 2/2/1 but that was rarely used.

#2 nobody and I mean nobody uses blasters on the myrm . . . they take cap, cost more PG, have less range, and a non select-able damage type when compared with autocannons. Autocannons were used before and they will be used after this change.