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CCP, Where Will HACs Stand?
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Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2011-10-23 17:40:55 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:


right. might as well use a harbie for more dps. besides, how will you waddle over to the Tornado? with an AB? Shocked

You use Tacklers and Bubbles while hovering around 30 hitting them with Heavy Pulse. The Arty will miss because there Sig Tanking with sig of 125 and a speed of over 500. 1400mm Guns won't hit that. They will hit a Harbinger with over double the Sig.



this is pure fantasy from your mind. zealot sits at the top of HAC list in kills because of sniper gangs. zealot belongs at 100km+, otherwise you bring a harbie. snipe HAC gangs are more or less obsolete now, and will completely cease to exist with the new BCs that will easily be able to alpha cruiser+ ships from 150km. apocs and rokhs can already do this. tier 3 BCs will be able to do this as well, but with more mobility.

im not complaining about individual HACs, im saying they have no role.
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#22 - 2011-10-23 17:45:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Reilly Duvolle
Hungry Eyes wrote:
Just wondering, what will be the role of HACs when the tier 3 BC's come out? already, HACs dont have a role because BCs have more EHP and DPS at close/mid range. sniper gangs have a tiny niche, but the new BC's will easily surpass them with large artys, hybrids and pulses.

what do? already there is little reason to get into a HAC.



HACs are indeed outperformed by the t1 battlecruisers in terms of damage output and tank as a stand alone platform. What HACs do offer is significantly better speed and range, and it is with these properties you will find the role better suitded for the HAC than the BC. HACs also offer increased resists, which makes them more effective than BCs in gangs employing logistics ships.

In a solo or small gang environment, the advantage of the HAC is generally in control - they're excellent at dictating when and where the engagement occurs, they are better at forcing you into a fight where you don't want it, and they are better at escaping unfavorable encounters.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-10-23 17:46:19 UTC
what the hell is wrong with the forums this weekend?

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Leiv Dzienovich
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2011-10-23 17:47:06 UTC
You're complaining about hacs having no roles, yet you then dispute the viability of a widely used, and widely known to be effective, role for hacs in pvp.... Maybe its time you lern2play?
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#25 - 2011-10-23 18:13:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Hirana Yoshida
HAC's will be exactly where they are now as the proposed tier3 BCs won't compete with them in the same way that the tier2 do.

What the stupidity called tier3 BCs will do is make the lower tier BS a thing of the past except in rare cases .. BC mobility with BS damage/range .. why should anyone ever want to use tier1 BS? The only ways that can be prevented is if some harsh anti-blob measures are put in place (chances of that are slim to none) or they start out so pre-nerfed as to make them useless.

Roaming alpha/gank tier3 BC blobs and defensive tier3 BS (90% Abbaddons) blobs .. add in a smattering of capitals and you have space as it will look for the next two years.

Gallente are the only ones who get to go free as the new BC will probably not be a drone platform so the Dominix will still have a place in Eve .. but Tempests, Armageddons and Scorpion/Ravens will becomes newb vehicles only used in missions and as disposable ratters.
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#26 - 2011-10-23 18:22:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Reilly Duvolle
Hirana Yoshida wrote:

What the stupidity called tier3 BCs will do is make the lower tier BS a thing of the past except in rare cases .. BC mobility with BS damage/range .. why should anyone ever want to use tier1 BS?


The ones that want tank and not only gank. Sure the Tier 3 BCs should push BS firepower, but they will be glass cannons compared to a properly fitted battleship. Tank is more important than gank in medium size fleet PVP. A fleet of Tier 1 BS should have no problem pwning a similary sized fleet of Tier 3 BCs, all other factors beeing equal.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#27 - 2011-10-23 18:37:43 UTC
If tank is a concern, then why use tier1/2 BS when the tier3's offer both more dps and tank than the lower tiers?

Introducing a platform that does the same damage at the same ranges but has 3-4 times better mobility at the expense of what will probably be very close to tier1 BS EHP (can get dangerously close with tier2's as it is now).

It is my hope that CCP sees the folly of adding yet another generic gank/tank BC (with bigguns!) and instead make them BC sized destroyers: sluggish with zero tank and scary tracking/range .. should put those damn T3's in their place.
JamesCLK
#28 - 2011-10-23 20:23:55 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
this is pure fantasy from your mind. zealot sits at the top of HAC list in kills because of sniper gangs. zealot belongs at 100km+, otherwise you bring a harbie. snipe HAC gangs are more or less obsolete now, and will completely cease to exist with the new BCs that will easily be able to alpha cruiser+ ships from 150km. apocs and rokhs can already do this. tier 3 BCs will be able to do this as well, but with more mobility.

im not complaining about individual HACs, im saying they have no role.


Somehow, I doubt you've experienced the level of grape a PL Fist gang can inflict on a fleet of large turret based ships...

Seriously, do not diss the Zealot - or sigrad tanking for that matter.
HACs (you know, the good ones, not the Diemost &co.) have a role: that is to provide BC level dammage output in a much more compact format than say, a BC or BS - they're also fast, even with an AB, which makes them lethal against Battleships and Capitals. Obviously there are variations on this (read: Vagabond and the like), but overall the roles are there.

You're exaggerating the effect of penalties beyond what they really are. AHACs are a proven concept too, like it or not.

Now, wouldn't it be nice if the couple of HACs that actually need some love (Sacri, Diemost, Eagle) were brought up to par?

Just sayin'

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DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2011-10-23 20:30:05 UTC
Move along, everyone.
It's either a troll, or someone so dense that all hope is lost.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2011-10-23 21:09:58 UTC
Quote:
right. might as well use a harbie for more dps. besides, how will you waddle over to the Tornado? with an AB?


Like this, obviously. Big smile
Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
#31 - 2011-10-23 21:18:42 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Hirana Yoshida wrote:

What the stupidity called tier3 BCs will do is make the lower tier BS a thing of the past except in rare cases .. BC mobility with BS damage/range .. why should anyone ever want to use tier1 BS?


The ones that want tank and not only gank. Sure the Tier 3 BCs should push BS firepower, but they will be glass cannons compared to a properly fitted battleship. Tank is more important than gank in medium size fleet PVP. A fleet of Tier 1 BS should have no problem pwning a similary sized fleet of Tier 3 BCs, all other factors beeing equal.

Must say a Drake with Cruise launchers doesn't sound that bad, though .......
Proteus Maximus
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#32 - 2011-10-23 21:40:23 UTC
Thing is with the new tier 3 BC is yes they will fit BS weapons... but what size. Taken into account there are a big heap of BS weapons that for the most part no one uses. Like the small and medium size for instance. Who's to say that this class of ship will. Have the grid to rack a full spread of 1400 artys or comparably sized blaster and laser turrets. We just don't know yet so pretty much its all conjecture.

Oh and I agree. OP next time just ask to buff the ship you want. Fear mongering is sniffed out faster than soiled panties around here.

If Goons were around when God said, "Let there be light" they'd have called the light gay, and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it.
Dunn Idaho
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#33 - 2011-10-23 22:08:11 UTC
JamesCLK wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:
this is pure fantasy from your mind. zealot sits at the top of HAC list in kills because of sniper gangs. zealot belongs at 100km+, otherwise you bring a harbie. snipe HAC gangs are more or less obsolete now, and will completely cease to exist with the new BCs that will easily be able to alpha cruiser+ ships from 150km. apocs and rokhs can already do this. tier 3 BCs will be able to do this as well, but with more mobility.

im not complaining about individual HACs, im saying they have no role.


Somehow, I doubt you've experienced the level of grape a PL Fist gang can inflict on a fleet of large turret based ships...

Seriously, do not diss the Zealot - or sigrad tanking for that matter.
HACs (you know, the good ones, not the Diemost &co.) have a role: that is to provide BC level dammage output in a much more compact format than say, a BC or BS - they're also fast, even with an AB, which makes them lethal against Battleships and Capitals. Obviously there are variations on this (read: Vagabond and the like), but overall the roles are there.

You're exaggerating the effect of penalties beyond what they really are. AHACs are a proven concept too, like it or not.

Now, wouldn't it be nice if the couple of HACs that actually need some love (Sacri, Diemost, Eagle) were brought up to par?

Just sayin'


Actually AHACS are esay to counter these days with a fleet of baddons, supported by a few AB loki's webbing the primaries down for the BS guns to hit them.

In that situation they just melt.
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#34 - 2011-10-23 23:01:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Reilly Duvolle
Jennifer Starling wrote:

Must say a Drake with Cruise launchers doesn't sound that bad, though .......



Except you wont get it. I expect to see no tanking bonuses on the new battlecruisers. These are meant to be glass cannons compared to battelships. Awesome high caliber firepower, comparetively weak tank - say 40-50k EHP like a shieldtanked Cane. Bonuses will probably centre around damage, maybe fitting and possibly EWAR, but not tank.
Mashie Saldana
V0LTA
OnlyFleets.
#35 - 2011-10-23 23:04:05 UTC
Jennifer Starling wrote:
Must say a Drake with Cruise launchers doesn't sound that bad, though .......

Except it is more likley to be a Ferox with large railguns.

How to win EVE
Breaker77
Reclamation Industries
#36 - 2011-10-23 23:11:38 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:

HACs are indeed outperformed by the t1 battlecruisers in terms of damage output and tank as a stand alone platform.


Another idiot who fails to realize that an Ishtar can almost out DPS and completely out tank a BS.

Seriously, 5 sentry, 5 heavy, 5 medium, and 5 light drones plus 3 medium turrets coupled with an AB or MWD means that you can outrun most targets and field an almost unending source of DPS through drones.

With even a basic armor tank setup you can achieve 90+ resist on all types of damage. Factor in the speed from an AB or MWD and you are next to impossible to hit.

If you PvP they better bring a few webs or they can't hit you. If you PvE, you can the solo the entire AE in half the time of a BS while killing every ship and using your extra 2 high slots for a tractor beam and salvager.

I call the OP out as a troll and idiot!
Reilly Duvolle
Hydra Squadron
#37 - 2011-10-23 23:12:04 UTC
Dunn Idaho wrote:

Actually AHACS are esay to counter these days with a fleet of baddons, supported by a few AB loki's webbing the primaries down for the BS guns to hit them.

In that situation they just melt.


You are talking about different things. The OP claims that sniper BS will melt HACs, which they might do if you fit the HACs as snipers. However, a well executed armor-HAC gang will absolutely destroy a sniper BS-gang. But enter the Hellcat pulsebaddon, and the ArmorHAC gang runs into serious problems. But even the mighty Hellcat runs into trouble against a 100 alpha Muninns fitted for range - or a Alpha-Maelstrom gang.

Its simple really. Rock Paper Scissors. HACs absolutely have their role still, but they are not unbeatable, nor should they be.
JamesCLK
#38 - 2011-10-23 23:17:04 UTC  |  Edited by: JamesCLK
Dunn Idaho wrote:

Actually AHACS are esay to counter these days with a fleet of baddons, supported by a few AB loki's webbing the primaries down for the BS guns to hit them.

In that situation they just melt.


I'm not argueing that AHAC fleets are indestructible, just that they have a role. And I will not deny that they will melt once they lose the only thing that keeps the big guns from hitting them.

Just like how a Dramiel will die once you put a couple of webs on it, unfortunately Drams can run away even with a pair of webs applied Sad

Obviously your example works because you have cruiser sized vessels (the Lokis) with webs and enough speed to catch the AHACs. Once you eliminate an AHACs speed (and/or sigrad, if you fit target painters), it is pretty much dead. It would also work with a bunch of Daredevils (-90% web bonus, also cheaper than a Loki and harder to hit with cruiser weapons).

I have to say though, for a solution, yours is pretty expensive when you consider the default counter to an AHAC fleet is a blob of Drakes.
Smile

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EnderCapitalG
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#39 - 2011-10-23 23:29:33 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
escape goat


I'm listening.
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#40 - 2011-10-24 03:06:06 UTC
DarkAegix wrote:
sYnc Vir wrote:
All be it

Albeit.


Please don't tell me you also say irregardless, point in case, be more pacific, could care less, for all intensive purposes and escape goat.



In all consideration, from time to time, Ones own opinion, To be frank, This I foresee, and not to play devils.... I will stop now

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
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