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Dev Blog: Introducing The Free Developer License & CREST API Beta Test

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ItsmeHcK1
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#41 - 2012-12-20 19:51:47 UTC
A small note with regards to creditcard verification; a lot of us don't have creditcards.
I, for one, live in the Netherlands, where nearly no one has a creditcard.
I have however paid for Eve with Paypal or iDeal (the Dutch online payment system for banks) before. A link to one of these would be very helpful.
HARD STEEL
Caldari Capital Construction Company
#42 - 2012-12-20 20:04:02 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
[quote=HARD STEEL][list]

Because if you want money, this isn't the license to use. Talk to legal@ccpgames.com

And I love how you're denigrating applications like Evemon as not valuable.


Oh this app? http://themittani.com/news/evemon-development-suspended

RL stuff huh? What, did he finally got into clown school? Did he win american idol? Just walked away from what looks to be a countless man hours of his hard effort? Or maybe he needed to divert his energy into something he could do to feed himself/his family and live a life of comfort - and saw no way of doing it by working on this 3rd party app.

I didn't devalue the developers, their ability and their products - I'm pointing out the rules of this ecosystem denies people to profit from their work, drains them of their energy, gives us half-realized products and forces them to be given up on as eventually RL will win given enough time.

Talk to legal? What can legal say besides no and/or please sign this document that lets us pull the rug from you at any minute.

ONLY THE HARD.  ONLY THE STRONG.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#43 - 2012-12-20 20:06:05 UTC
HARD STEEL wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
[quote=HARD STEEL][list]

Because if you want money, this isn't the license to use. Talk to legal@ccpgames.com

And I love how you're denigrating applications like Evemon as not valuable.


Oh this app? http://themittani.com/news/evemon-development-suspended

RL stuff huh? What, did he finally got into clown school? Did he win american idol? Just walked away from what looks to be a countless man hours of his hard effort? Or maybe he needed to divert his energy into something he could do to feed himself/his family and live a life of comfort - and saw no way of doing it by working on this 3rd party app.

I didn't devalue the developers, their ability and their products - I'm pointing out the rules of this ecosystem denies people to profit from their work, drains them of their energy, gives us half-realized products and forces them to be given up on as eventually RL will win given enough time.

Talk to legal? What can legal say besides no and/or please sign this document that lets us pull the rug from you at any minute.



Legal can arrange a license agreement with you, with proper renumeration for CCP, for you profiting from CCPs IP.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2012-12-20 20:32:04 UTC
Is there a possible option to upgrade to a "making profit" contract in the future after I use the free licence to work through my beta testing.

Or will it be a case by case bases?

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
HARD STEEL
Caldari Capital Construction Company
#45 - 2012-12-20 20:36:25 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
Is there a possible option to upgrade to a "making profit" contract in the future after I use the free licence to work through my beta testing.

Or will it be a case by case bases?


+1 to that. With Google you get a free level of usage and then pay when you go over. They even give you a console to check your usage over time to know when you're getting close to it.

Telling me I can contact legal as step 1 freaks me out. It's like a chick asking you to marry her on the first date

ONLY THE HARD.  ONLY THE STRONG.
Wollari
Dirt Nap Squad
#46 - 2012-12-20 21:53:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Wollari
I see lots of good ideas and thoughts in this developer license.

I know this has been asked already. But I'll just put this in my post for my complete open, not yet answered questions.


  • Sharing for services with ingame money. As Peter said It's just says charging, but not real or ingame money.
  • Using Advertisment is ok, but however, I'm limited to control the ads provided by a 3rd party ad provider


---

I know I can limit the shown ads on google adsense through their settings but this has limitations.

  • Google Adsense allows only 500 domains (afaik) to be blacklisted.
  • I can only block EULA breaking ads (example google ads) as soon as I get informed about them.
  • It's possible that EULA breaking ads are not shown to myself (through advertising options) so only others will see them not me.
  • People interested into putting out EULA breaking ads will always find a way to go around the limits you've added to your filters. Same goes to developing bots ... they'll always find ways around your code ...


I can accept the fact that EULA breaking ads are forbidden if I them manage ads personally and put directly into my app or website, but I'll would like to see some clarification on the 3rd party ad providers.

Possible Clarifaction could be: Allow 3rd party ad provider as long as the developer is


If this is not clear. Using Ad provider like google ads is like playing russian roulette. You can use it, but if they want to kick you in your butt, you'll always find a EULA breaking ad which slipped through your fingers.

DOTLAN EveMaps | Your out-of-game map, navigation toolset, sov database, etc. since 2008
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
#47 - 2012-12-20 23:02:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rob Crowley
I too would like other ways than credit card for verification, those aren't very common in large parts of Europe and I don't have one.

HARD STEEL wrote:
I didn't devalue the developers, their ability and their products - I'm pointing out the rules of this ecosystem denies people to profit from their work, drains them of their energy, gives us half-realized products and forces them to be given up on as eventually RL will win given enough time.
Except there are plenty full-realized products out there, which often are taken over by the next guy when the current guy doesn't have the time/energy/resources anymore to keep going. Generally 3rd party app development is considered a hobby, not a job and the license reflects that. If you want to do it on a level beyond that it shouldn't be too much to ask to contact CCP for a different license.

Quote:
Telling me I can contact legal as step 1 freaks me out.
Don't be a wuss, even lawyers can't suck out your soul via e-mail (at least I think so).
CCP Zero Gravitas
C C P
C C P Alliance
#48 - 2012-12-20 23:32:37 UTC
Hooray! Looking forward to seeing what you all build with CREST!

CREST wrangler
Katrina Bekers
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#49 - 2012-12-21 00:13:45 UTC
HARD STEEL wrote:
Telling me I can contact legal as step 1 freaks me out.


Ok, I guess the EVE ecosystem might survive even without your fantastic app/site/tool, when you'll quit developing it over this outrageous CCP move.

What app/site/tool did you write, btw?

May I have your stuff source code?

<< THE RABBLE BRIGADE >>
stoicfaux
#50 - 2012-12-21 04:25:33 UTC
Quote:
2.2 ... For the sake of clarity, Developer
may not redistribute, and Developer shall not knowingly allow any third party to
access, the Game Materials or Game Data outside of the Application.


Not allowing data to be transferred out of the app might be overly restrictive. On one hand I can understand disallowing 'pass-through' apps that essentially act as middleware or general query servers to allow 3rd parties to get around the license, on the other hand it would also mean no screenshot buttons, no copy to clipboard function, no create CSV file option, no passing the apps' raw output to a websever to be rendered in pretty html, no pasting information into an email, etc.?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
gfldex
#51 - 2012-12-21 06:49:16 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
I cannot wait to dig into this! :D Looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with using it.


Did you read and understood section 12.4? You might find yourself in a situation where your career is directly effected by this license agreement.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
#52 - 2012-12-21 08:17:01 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Quote:
2.2 ... For the sake of clarity, Developer
may not redistribute, and Developer shall not knowingly allow any third party to
access, the Game Materials or Game Data outside of the Application.
Not allowing data to be transferred out of the app might be overly restrictive.
I got a follow-up question there: Are Game Data and Game Materials supposed to include all stuff that would be freely usable without signing the license, like the SDE e.g.? Because the definitions in point 1.6 and 1.7 definitely read like they include that, but to me it doesn't make much sense that you would protect that data more for devs using CREST and accepting the license than for other devs. If Game Data and Game Materials were defined as only CREST-specific stuff which you get by accepting the license then the export restrictions wouldn't be problematic.

As an example: EveHQ's fitter allows exporting fits in a couple formats (xml for Eve, different text formats for EFT and forum posting). If I understand the wording correctly this would not be allowed anymore when using the license. Or even more broadly, EveHQ comes with a file which contains the SDE in SQL CE format. It's of course not meant as a redistribution, but it's not protected against app user or 3rd party direct access cause the data is freely available from the CCP website anyway.

License wrote:
8.1. If Developer learns of any infringement or unauthorized use of any of the Game Data, Game Materials, or CCP Marks, the Developer shall promptly notify CCP. CCP has the right to transmit notices of infringement to or bring infringement actions against infringing parties. If requested to do so, Developer shall cooperate with and assist CCP in any such action, including joining the action as a party if necessary, at CCP’s expense.
I guess this is probably one of the things in the license that's unlikely to ever be used, but I still find the notion rather strange that every 3rd party dev is supposed to be a copyright watchdog for CCP, even independent of any app the dev might or might not have published.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#53 - 2012-12-21 08:58:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Rob Crowley wrote:
I got a follow-up question there: Are Game Data and Game Materials supposed to include all stuff that would be freely usable without signing the license, like the SDE e.g.? Because the definitions in point 1.6 and 1.7 definitely read like they include that, but to me it doesn't make much sense that you would protect that data more for devs using CREST and accepting the license than for other devs. If Game Data and Game Materials were defined as only CREST-specific stuff which you get by accepting the license then the export restrictions wouldn't be problematic.



https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2351149#post2351149

CCP Seagull wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Quick question:

Will this be used to cover access to the SDE? And if so, what would be the status of people who distribute converted copies there of, in other formats? (such as mysql, sqlite, and so on)


SDE, access to the current API, and all other dev resources will be freely available, and not require the Dev License. Only CREST usage and Single Sign On usage will require the license.



Answers one of your questions :)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
#54 - 2012-12-21 09:14:25 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
CCP Seagull wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Quick question:

Will this be used to cover access to the SDE? And if so, what would be the status of people who distribute converted copies there of, in other formats? (such as mysql, sqlite, and so on)
SDE, access to the current API, and all other dev resources will be freely available, and not require the Dev License. Only CREST usage and Single Sign On usage will require the license.
Answers one of your questions :)
Not really. I know that I can use the SDE without accepting the license, what I want to know is what happens when I accept the license and then use the SDE (because I want SDE and CREST). I know this might sound like a nitpicky distinction, but we are talking about legal stuff after all. :)
The license text appears to include all this stuff that would be freely usable without accepting the license.
Psihius
Perkone
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-12-21 10:14:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Psihius
CCP Seagull wrote:
As the license currently stands, this would prevent you from charging for such a kill-board - but we are very interested in you sending exactly such cases to developerlicense@ccpgames.com, so that we can look at how the license could evolve to support cases that are good for the community, and not a problem for us legally. Having concrete examples helps us a lot in this.

I'm actually interested in this too.

I would like the ability to charge people for using my services, and covering them with ads like AdWords isn't really an option until you have tens of thousandths of people using your service (and that still could not be enough).
Charging some real money to cover hosting costs would be great (and when you are running a popular service, that's usually a dedicated server with monthly upkeep of 100-200 EUR if ordered from a hosting company. Or 2000-3000 EUR for a server that you buy for the service), because donations are unreliable. You may, or may not, get the amount you need.
Maybe from the start there will be the ability to charge only ISK and only some very limited amount (like up to 15-30 mil), just to test things.
And it could be the case that if the ability to charge some real money introduced, it should be evaluated by the CCP and allowed explicitly, with the associated paperwork and maybe some fee (like that 99$ fee that was planed earlier), or CCP taking some %. Maybe require service to provide some basic functions for free and ability to charge ISK or real money for more advanced stuff.

Main reasoning here is that developing and providing a reliable service should provide you with some income to be able to guaranty that stability. I would envision the ability to use PLEX to pay for services like 1 plex - 3-4 months of service. Or use aurum for that. Or just plain and simple external processing, although that is not very desirable, because making a system that is hack-proof and handles sensitive billing data with care is tough and costly, I know from the first-hand experience (I'm working with tens of online currency processing on a daily for 3 years now and continuing).

And actually using plex as payment people are able to use ISK to buy plexes and actually use only ISK for services. Just like with the subscriptions :)

That's just something to think about.
Golden Gnu
Lobach Inc.
#56 - 2012-12-21 10:59:10 UTC
Thank you for making the license free. Excluding the original API, make this dev blog none-important for me.
As long as you'll not be able to sell stuff on the market and reprocess items with CREST, I'll just use the old API Blink
Thank you for continuing to use resources on the API development.

Creator of jEveAssets - the asset manager

"Download is the meaning of life, upload is the meaning of intelligent life"
HARD STEEL
Caldari Capital Construction Company
#57 - 2012-12-21 12:36:16 UTC
All I'm saying is Amazon and Google don't give a quasi open source license and tell you how you can and can't make money from your product to this degree. Giving me the option explain my business idea to lawyers and developers to see if they say yes isn't an option in my books as I've been down that road.

Why not just do it how everyone else is doing it?

i.e

http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/pricing/
http://www.google.com/enterprise/earthmaps/maps-compare.html

ONLY THE HARD.  ONLY THE STRONG.
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2012-12-21 12:41:42 UTC
Two step wrote:
Yay, so very excited about this.

Thanks also for addressing *all* of the concerns the CSM had with the previous version, including adding that condition to the Force Majeure clause... :)
Oh wow. The CSM has taken action over the past six months?

What else have you guys done?

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#59 - 2012-12-21 13:02:37 UTC
HARD STEEL wrote:
All I'm saying is Amazon and Google don't give a quasi open source license and tell you how you can and can't make money from your product to this degree. Giving me the option explain my business idea to lawyers and developers to see if they say yes isn't an option in my books as I've been down that road.

Why not just do it how everyone else is doing it?

i.e

http://aws.amazon.com/ec2/pricing/
http://www.google.com/enterprise/earthmaps/maps-compare.html




One thing about the maps api from google.

If you're charging for access to the application? You have to get the for business API. Which isn't free.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#60 - 2012-12-21 15:23:33 UTC
gfldex wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
I cannot wait to dig into this! :D Looking forward to seeing what you guys come up with using it.


Did you read and understood section 12.4? You might find yourself in a situation where your career is directly effected by this license agreement.


Just move to California. Section 12.4 can't be enforced there.