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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

First post First post
Author
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1341 - 2011-10-23 10:44:12 UTC
Cerulean Ice wrote:

What?

Better idea: Don't fix what isn't broken.

More FiS, less FarmVille please ^^


Adding more stuff for Spaceships to fight for is very much FiS.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

El 1974
Green Visstick High
#1342 - 2011-10-23 11:20:26 UTC
I'd favor a gradual rollout of this new feature: first do 0.0, evaluate, then lowsec and possibly highsec as well. Don't rush out new untested changes and give us nothing after that for several months.

Larger 0.0 alliances can benefit from this, but Dust might ruin the fun. There is no point in building custom offices when a bunch of mercs can blow up the planetary infrastructure. On the other hand it is also yet unknown how COs will affect sov in the new sov system. Alliances might build them even though they have little interest in PI.
Benilopax
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1343 - 2011-10-23 12:53:40 UTC
I haven't seen this possible solution put forward in previous pages, apologies if it has been raised, there is a lot to read.

Keep COs in Low Sec but make them conquerable to player corps. And only allow owners to charge a certain percentage up to 100% and prevent them from blocking use to other players on the planets by standings. That way the owners get isk revenue with low initial cost, PI in low sec is a bit more expensive but possible and people can still fight over the COs for the profit. (Possibly look into having this for High Sec later on but have a maximum of 50% tax collectible.

Make COs cheaper but deployable in 0.0 there is no administration out there they should be built but allow alliances to block others from using it and maybe make them shut down when put into reinforced so small gangs can raid enemies for fights and to annoy their foes and cut supply lines, as well as being destructible.

Seems like the most balanced plan for this new feature.

Thoughts?

...

Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#1344 - 2011-10-23 12:55:12 UTC
Please please consider a new reinforcement model for these. I would love to see them as small gang targets without making them easy prey for supers. What if we gave them some sort of dampening field that limited the damage over time such that they could take at max say 5000 dps over a one minute period of time on average. This would make it a target for a small gang while making a super complete overkill and be no faster. You could then set the hit points to be whatever it needs to be to take X amount of time to kill and or reinforce.

.

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1345 - 2011-10-23 14:38:14 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
Please please consider a new reinforcement model for these. I would love to see them as small gang targets without making them easy prey for supers. What if we gave them some sort of dampening field that limited the damage over time such that they could take at max say 5000 dps over a one minute period of time on average. This would make it a target for a small gang while making a super complete overkill and be no faster. You could then set the hit points to be whatever it needs to be to take X amount of time to kill and or reinforce.


A smaller signature radius on the POCO itself might help with that, instead of giving it the signature radius of a capital ship, give it a signature radius about the size of a cruiser / battlecruiser / battleship. (Sig radius on a large tower is 6000m, 4000m on a medium 2000m on a small.) So having the POCO with a sig radius of 300m for a "large" variant, 200m for a "medium variant" and 100m for a "small variant" might mean that smaller POCOs would be harder to destroy by XL weapons.

Since the POCOs have no visible shield bubble, it makes sense for their sig radius to be smaller then their full fledged POS tower brethren.

Also opens up the idea of (2) new POS e-war modules:

1) Tracking Disruptor Battery - Doesn't currently exist, would need to function like existing TD modules.

2) An anti-target painter - When applied to an enemy ship, that ship's electronics sees every other signature radius as 20% smaller.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1346 - 2011-10-23 14:54:20 UTC
I'll try to summarize my view on this, from the point of view of lowsec, as this is where 1) I have the most experience, and 2) I think POCOs have the most potential.

PI brings into lowsec a steady supply of highsec people collecting their materials. They do it because the profit is good and the risk manageable. However, these people add very little to the lowsec ecosystem. At most, the unlucky ones will become another boring hauler killmail.

POCOs have the potential of bringing those lowsec PI runners into the ecosystem. They will become a resource to be taxed. Lowsec entities will setup POCOs to feed off them. Other lowsec residents will reinforce the POCOs, either to setup their own, or to force fights. Those fights will escalate the way fights do, and more fun will be had.

But to get this, a certain balance has to be found:

  • The flow of PI chars into lowsec must continue. This means POCOs must be common and generally (or always) open to all, and lowsec PI must remain profitable despite taxes.
  • POCOs must be profitable enough that they pay for themselves before they get destroyed. Two weeks to a month on the average planet seems right.
  • However, losing a POCO needs to hurt the owner in some way. If people think "let them take it, we'll put up a new one later", there will be no fights.

If CCP manages to balance these 3 points, POCOs will become a new focus for conflict and hopefully fights. If they don't... we won't see much lowsec PI.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#1347 - 2011-10-23 14:59:15 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Cerulean Ice wrote:

What?

Better idea: Don't fix what isn't broken.

More FiS, less FarmVille please ^^


Adding more stuff for Spaceships to fight for is very much FiS.


its going to be rare you fight over a planet thingy.

mostly as there will not be many put up in low sec, why bother do pi in high sec save 80mil/planet and have no risk.
in 0.0 there wont be ops to defend them as its far more important to do anything else than fight over a pointless structure that has no meaning, also in 0.0 80 mil is what 2h ratting at most people will just put up another. also have to remember the roaming gang that did ref it prob wont come back anyhow as they just did it to be anoying while passing through space that had no real targets in.

fight over planet things..lol, your a ccp alt right?

OMG when can i get a pic here

CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1348 - 2011-10-23 15:55:56 UTC
pussnheels wrote:
So CCP here are 67 pages of feedback

Are you still reading and what are your conclusions


Yes, we are still following this thread. I have compiled a list of player concerns which I have updated several times. The responsible Devteam has answered quite a lot of questions so far also.

The feedback is good and constructive here, exactly of that sort which is most valuable. Thank you very much!




CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer

Raid'En
#1349 - 2011-10-23 16:08:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Raid'En
CCP Phantom wrote:

I have compiled a list of player concerns which I have updated several times. The responsible Devteam has answered quite a lot of questions so far also.

wow
that's a good job

i suggest you to put a link on the 1st page, on spitfire post, it will be way easier this way , as no one wil find it on a 60 pages thread after this post will also be lost with the new comments ^^
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#1350 - 2011-10-23 16:32:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Alice Katsuko
Very nice work, both in the concept and in taking player feedback into account. Looking forward to whatever the final version of this will be.

It won't take a fleet of dreads to reinforce a POCO. With the current HP, a small gang of stealth bombers can do the job in fifteen or twenty minutes. This is both a good and a bad thing. It's good because it allows small gangs to harass nullsec residents, and means that there isn't much incentive to bring huge structure-shooting blobs to take POCOs down, especially since there may be dozens of POCOs in a single system. It's bad because a small gang can go through several systems during the POCO owner's downtime and reinforce all the POCOs, then force the owner to babysit them all when they come out of reinforced mode; on the other hand, this is the price of ownership.

Besides which, the profits from PI are so low that no sane alliance or corporation will drop a capital fleet on one. Nullsec alliances obviously will clear out POCOs which they do not own from their space, but that's the way things should be. Nullsec alliances don't leave hostile towers floating about in their space, and they don't leave hostile IHubs or TCUs, either, for obvious reasons. But I very much doubt that capital fleets will ever be used to kill POCOs unless their HP is drastically increased, and that would be bad since it would encourage blobbing or simply make POCOs pointless to shoot at except for sovereign holders.

I am not sure why anyone would run ninja PI operations in sovereign nullsec. The risk doesn't seem to be worth the effort, especially considering that most nullsec alliances will form a fleet to shoot a cloaky hauler on principle, and since cloaky haulers have rather low cargo capacity. This should not be a significant concern. I especially do not understand why anyone would run high-level PI operations in sovereign nullsec space.

A single individual is not supposed to be able to own his personal POCO except in relatively empty pockets of space. Near as I understand it, POCOs are meant to be corporate or alliance assets. So it should require some sort of group-level organization to keep a POCO safe. Similarly, a corporation which goes to the effort of building and defending a POCO should be able to make life difficult for people whom it does not like.

I do agree that we should not be able to completely exclude players from running PI, but players already can use the command launchpad for export. Why not make a new, higher-capacity launchpad that can be easily moved alongside the ECU/processor cluster but has less storage space and less launch capacity than the customs office pad? Better yet, make that launchpad draw on neighboring storage silos. This would make storage silos actually useful, and would allow players to bypass a POCO. Better yet, allow import via this new launchpad, albeit at a greater cost. This way when Dust allows us to build death rays on planets by moving certain construction parts down to a planet, a small ninja alliance can drop a small colony and build its death ray unnoticed, then nuke a few dreads. Twisted

I am not entirely sure that preventing players from excluding others based on standings but allowing them to set any tax rate would solve anything. If I set a tax rate to 1000% of the current price for all reds, it would be as though I had excluded reds from using the POCO. Not allowing me to set different tax rates seems contrary to the sandbox.

For NPC nullsec, it may be a good idea to keep customs offices, make them conquerable, prohibit exclusion of players and cap the maximum tax rate. After all, that space is owned by big-name pirates, who presumably run their own planet-based industries and don't want a bunch of pod-pilots crashing their parade.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1351 - 2011-10-23 16:44:12 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
So CCP here are 67 pages of feedback

Are you still reading and what are your conclusions


Yes, we are still following this thread. I have compiled a list of player concerns which I have updated several times. The responsible Devteam has answered quite a lot of questions so far also.

The feedback is good and constructive here, exactly of that sort which is most valuable. Thank you very much!







Thank you for keeping the notes you're taking updated!

+ 1

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

rootimus maximus
Perkone
Caldari State
#1352 - 2011-10-23 17:29:29 UTC  |  Edited by: rootimus maximus
CCP Phantom wrote:
Yes, we are still following this thread. I have compiled a list of player concerns which I have updated several times.


Sadly, it still doesn't include the counters to many of the "issues", which are resolved by a) teamwork and / or b) fighting.
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#1353 - 2011-10-23 17:47:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Creat Posudol
A few notes/comments on ideas that have been mentioned frequently already:

Indestructible POCOs, switching owners upon attack: HORRIBLE idea!!!
It has been suggester quite a few times that POCOs shouldn't be destructible but change ownership (like outposts). They need to be destructible! Give us some more uses for the actual PI materials (which aren't used for fuel) instead of just POSs themselves! The demand is desperately needed, and it needs to be an ongoing demand, not just 1 time till the good planets have a POCO that just switches owners upon attack.
Switching ownership would also mean no need for an investment for whoever wants it, they just need to shoot at it for a couple of minutes, come back after a day or so and shoot some more and voilà: free income. This would no longer be a political or even economical decision as CCP has said they want it to be, but just a free-for-all "attack here for profit". THEN we'd surely have alliances and big corps taking over every POCO they can find or just come across, there is no downside, no commitment/investment required!
I understand the motivation of this suggestion, but it isn't thought out. Actually even less than the current mechanic proposed/planned by CCP. For all that is sacred please consider the consequences and side effects of something like this! The mechanic is bad for Outposts which cost a hell of a lot more ISK and it will be a disaster for POCOs!

Keep current COs until players replace them:
The idea is, that the current COs stay up until players show up to replace them. What I haven't seen is any real incentive to actually do so. Since there won't be near enough POCOs available via market and/or contracts to place near all the planets which are currently used for PI in "not-high-sec", there needs to be a grace period. It also needs to encourage the replacement of the Concord-COs over time, the best incentive would be to slowly but steadily increase the tax rate, like 5% per week or something. Also, don't limit it in this case to 100%, make it increase every week until it is finally replaced. This would allow the supply to come up with enough of those things over time to satisfy demand.

edit: only saw just now, also already proposed basically in this form in post #1238 by Ingvar Angst.

Tax as % of transferred goods instead of fixed ISK rate:
I really also love this idea. Some things need to be considered and implemented though for this to work! There needs to be a corp hangar in addition to personal hangars for the owning corp. Not like a normal station hangar with all the divisions, but have a drop-down box in the options allow the selection of one division the hangar is supposed to act like (for allowing access and stuff). The capacity also needs to be at least that of a normal hangar to avoid nightmare-logistics...
Also there needs to be a constant counter keeping score of the transported goods by any individual using it ('customer'). Otherwise the tax could be circumvented by just transferring smaller amounts, where there is never any tax payable (similar to reprocessing modules piece by piece or in bulk). Take this example: Someone produces P4s on a planet with a 5% tax. He wants to transfer 24 items, where he'd pay 1 item as tax, but instead he only transfers 8 three times, avoiding the taxes completely. The system needs to know how many of any specific item was transferred in which direction to know what exactly to take. If it wasn't done per exact type I could just have a couple of cheaper items of the same tier just for transfering when I know the tax is due (transfer 19 integrity response drones, then 1 Organic Mortar applicator). This is of course an extreme example with the only item group that is worth a significant amount by itself, and will be much less problematic with P0-P3.
Yes, this would put a strain on the database as these entries would have to be kept for any individual character per exact item per POCO! It's a lot of data, and any entry older than a moth or so should probably be just removed.
Another, simpler way would be to keep the ISK tax for P4 items like it is (or would be) now, but switch to the item-based tax for all other imports/exports.
Please note though: It WILL make factory planets a nightmare to restock, since you have to include the tax in what you want to transfer!

Size of planetary launches:
A flat size increase has been requested many times, or a tie-in to the command center skill, but how about creating a new skill for it (Launch Vehicle Operation?), which adds 1k m³ (or just doubles it) per level over the default 500 m³. This would allow players to actively choose this as a viable alternative to POCOs if they owner turns out be just screwing around with the tax and/or access all the time. Might also have another skill to reduce the cost of a launch and/or decrease launch intervals. Maybe even one more skill allowing for imports via some sort of launch canister

POCOs on Kill Mails:
Also a much asked question (and answered on page 60 by CCP Nullarbor that they will produce kill mails). I don't like the idea, but it depends in the end if CCP is true to their statement that they don't want to incentivize killing these for the hell of it but for political/economical reasons. If someone wants to put up their own POCO, stop someone from doing PI on certain planet(s) or just plainly influence the general market they will do so. There doesn't need to be an additional incentive for people to shoot stuff just to pad their kill board.
"Hey, there isn't anyone to shoot around, but since we have a fleet let's reinforce a couple POCOs, maybe if we are bored tomorrow again we can kill them and have at least something on our kill board!"

Well, my opinions on the current suggestions. Discuss!
Max Devious
X-M.MagnetS
#1354 - 2011-10-23 18:28:40 UTC
So now I've read all the comments in this thread, and in the final analysis this is what we know:

1. These POCOs are not financially viable as income-generating profit points in and of themselves because of the high costs associated with obtaining them and the likelihood of their destruction. Tax revenues generated always < cost of ownership.

2. This being the case, the only reason to purchase and deploy one is to have rights to the PI on the planet.

It is thus only a method to extend sovereignty battles into LowSec and WH space. Some simple wildcat production can still be done with launchers, but all multi-stage production will now be controlled by the large Alliances. There is no economic reason for tax rates to be anything other than 0% or 100% unless you are sharing resources with other corps and want to take a piece of the action for providing security. WH crews will be hurt more at first due to the logistical challenges inherent in WH life, and later maybe not so much because WH mechanics give us a better chance of defending. This may ironically have the effect of moving more PI industrialists into WH crews so they can protect their investments. It will certainly not make anyone more likely to move into LowSec, and it will become more a wasteland than it is even now.

Only question I still have not seen answered is how my standings are going to be affected by killing one of these LowSec structures, and will I be on an aggression timer afterwards.


Max.
Red Zaya
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1355 - 2011-10-23 18:29:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Red Zaya
CCP Phantom wrote:

I have compiled a list of player concerns


Part 3 you can add what you put in Part 4 : LOWSEC changes also perfect for blobs and large groups.

Anyway just have to look at likes/dislikes answers to see who wants it and who doesnt, imo you'll please 10 K players and uppset the rest Roll

Oh, indeed, i would have first say that the way this was brought to us is very interesting ("we are GONNA DO", this was not "what if we do ?").
So, again, instead of putting all energy and people to finalize what your customers (we are players, but first we are customers) are waiting for YEARS you come with another "will do" ... cant do else than compare it with http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2672 Twisted
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1356 - 2011-10-23 18:32:37 UTC
Max Devious wrote:
Only question I still have not seen answered is how my standings are going to be affected by killing one of these LowSec structures, and will I be on an aggression timer afterwards.


You get a security status hit for aggressing / destroying one in lowsec and will be on GCC.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1357 - 2011-10-23 19:09:48 UTC
Creat Posudol wrote:


...

Size of planetary launches:
A flat size increase has been requested many times, or a tie-in to the command center skill, but how about creating a new skill for it (Launch Vehicle Operation?), which adds 1k m³ (or just doubles it) per level over the default 500 m³. This would allow players to actively choose this as a viable alternative to POCOs if they owner turns out be just screwing around with the tax and/or access all the time. Might also have another skill to reduce the cost of a launch and/or decrease launch intervals. Maybe even one more skill allowing for imports via some sort of launch canister

...

Well, my opinions on the current suggestions. Discuss!



If this were to be done, it should only be done if the pre-requisite skill is Command Center Upgrades LVL 5

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#1358 - 2011-10-23 19:24:03 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Creat Posudol wrote:


...

Size of planetary launches:
A flat size increase has been requested many times, or a tie-in to the command center skill, but how about creating a new skill for it (Launch Vehicle Operation?), which adds 1k m³ (or just doubles it) per level over the default 500 m³. This would allow players to actively choose this as a viable alternative to POCOs if they owner turns out be just screwing around with the tax and/or access all the time. Might also have another skill to reduce the cost of a launch and/or decrease launch intervals. Maybe even one more skill allowing for imports via some sort of launch canister

...

Well, my opinions on the current suggestions. Discuss!


If this were to be done, it should only be done if the pre-requisite skill is Command Center Upgrades LVL 5


Yea, that's actually a pretty good idea and would give a reason to train it besides having a bit more grid/cpu per planet (it really isn't that much unfortunately). It would basically mean you do PI seriously and not just as a hobby, so you have developed special ways to ninja around the POCOs high taxrates (if they are high or you're locked out only, it shouldn't be cheaper to launch a rocket compared to a 20% tax or so).
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#1359 - 2011-10-23 19:34:40 UTC
Alice Katsuko wrote:


Nullsec alliances obviously will clear out POCOs which they do not own from their space, but that's the way things should be. Nullsec alliances don't leave hostile towers floating about in their space, and they don't leave hostile IHubs or TCUs, either, for obvious reasons.




your wrong about this. have shot many old tcu's/ihub's of alliances that havnt lived in our space for over a year. why are they still there? because people hate shooting things that dont shoot back and are of no importance. tcu/ihub is offline in a system, anchour your own, the old ones just sit there until there is a total lack of targets and a bored fc.(they dont get cleared in the 30day space clean up thingy)
a new alliance moving into an area will concentract on sov structures not planety things at first, why? cos they are not important.
in a few years yourll find lots of older alliances planet things dotted about and will only do soemthing if the tax is high and you can really be botherd removing it and replacing it. grunt work not an alliance lvl job imo

OMG when can i get a pic here

Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1360 - 2011-10-23 19:52:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominus Alterai
Creat Posudol wrote:
A few notes/comments on ideas that have been mentioned frequently already:

Indestructible POCOs, switching owners upon attack: HORRIBLE idea!!!
It has been suggester quite a few times that POCOs shouldn't be destructible but change ownership (like outposts). They need to be destructible! Give us some more uses for the actual PI materials (which aren't used for fuel) instead of just POSs themselves! The demand is desperately needed, and it needs to be an ongoing demand, not just 1 time till the good planets have a POCO that just switches owners upon attack.
Switching ownership would also mean no need for an investment for whoever wants it, they just need to shoot at it for a couple of minutes, come back after a day or so and shoot some more and voilà: free income. This would no longer be a political or even economical decision as CCP has said they want it to be, but just a free-for-all "attack here for profit". THEN we'd surely have alliances and big corps taking over every POCO they can find or just come across, there is no downside, no commitment/investment required!
I understand the motivation of this suggestion, but it isn't thought out. Actually even less than the current mechanic proposed/planned by CCP. For all that is sacred please consider the consequences and side effects of something like this! The mechanic is bad for Outposts which cost a hell of a lot more ISK and it will be a disaster for POCOs!



Firstly, the conquer mechanic is, for the most part, only being discussed for LOW-SEC. In 0.0 and WH space, fully destructible POCOs should still be implemented, as per discussed and explained many times in this thread. Second, the conquer mechanic on outposts makes more sense than actually having them just blow up. As a station builder, I can tell you that it takes many months to actually create a station, not to mention that it's an extremely large isk sink that an alliance will most likely never see returns on. The benefits of having a dock-able structure that can store unlimited items however far outweigh the risks. As for POCO in LOW-SEC ONLY, conquer mechanics should be implemented, as it will solve many issues people are having now, namely greifing, cost-effectiveness, chosen amount of player interaction, etc.

As for uses of PI materials, I take it you don't build anything. PI material is used in T2 production, structure production, and capital/super capital production.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.