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NPC AI Adjustment: Does it solve anything?
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Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#41 - 2012-12-19 16:42:03 UTC
In response to the OP, in my experience since the patch, drones are a pain in the ass now, and I often lose a hobgoblin or two on a given mission. I run missions in a Domi, a pulse Abaddon, and a Navy Raven. I precer the Raven now as it has a TP and rigor rigs, and is thus more effective at killing small stuff.

One thing I did notice was that if I retracted the two hobgoblins receiving frigate fire, I could leave three out unmolested for some reason.....could be luck, but it worked on several occasions.

Bigger drones and sentries I haven't had as many issues with.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#42 - 2012-12-19 17:25:54 UTC
You folks are not just getting the big picture.
Null sec wanted high sec income nerfed.
CCP did it.

That is all.

Oh, and when I ran anom's in Pure Blind in my null sec days, I used an armour tanked Ishtar with Gardes and Wardens, so while these changes definitely hit null sec as well, it is to a much smaller extent.

And yeah, I used to run the tank Proteus in the Maze, or the Oni, and let the gank boat be someone else.
So now the tank/ gank/ repper changes to 4 RR Navy Domi's, or a tank/gank/ and 2 reppers.
So instead of 3 chars sharing the loot, it now 4.
Of course, now that CCP so thoughtfully changed the Citadel Torp damage to match the rat type, people don't have to dual tank anymore, and might still be able to do them with 3 chars.

Any way you cut it, the impact on null sec income with these changes is far, far less than for a solo mission runner, which was what the plan was all along.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-12-19 17:47:36 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
You folks are not just getting the big picture.
Null sec wanted high sec income nerfed.
CCP did it.

That is all.


See, I would buy that, except most high sec PvEers wouldn't be using a drone boat to farm ISK. I mostly see Machariels, Vargurs, occasional Golem and CNR. Tons of Tengus as well. But I hardly ever see Navy Domis. So as far as nerfing the PvE income? I doubt we'll see much difference. Heck, I spoke to a few Tengu/Mach pilots and they didn't really notice any changes.

Seems like a directed anti-drone move. Which really makes no sense, considering how many new drone boats they just added this patch (Tristan, Algos, Dragoon?) and how many more are soon to come (Prophecy becomes a drone boat, no?), so why introduce new ships and at the same time make them prohibitively difficult and inefficient to fly?
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#44 - 2012-12-19 18:38:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Quote:
...but large drones are often the preferred general purpose weapon.


Not even before the nerf.

Quote:
You folks are not just getting the big picture.
Null sec wanted high sec income nerfed.
CCP did it.

That is all.


No. Using drones pre/post patch with no difficulties. CCP wanted to nerf AFK income.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Jason13 Anzomi
#45 - 2012-12-19 19:26:21 UTC
The consensus seems to be that we are to use Sentry drones, remain stationary so we can insta-scoop them if needed and to hell with the new players trying to use drones. Do I have this right?

I sure hope I have this wrong because I don't see a drone boat as being a stationary brick during the fighting, nor do I see the sense in trying to drive away new players.

Then again, nothing about this entire AI change makes sense to me. A needless change made to solve a problem that was not addressed by the solution and only bandaids on the problem which have the effect of nullifying most of the original change. How exactly do I get a complaint to the person at CCP responsible for this fiasco? Rather than agro at a GM who has no authority, I want to know how to get a complaint to the right person!

This smacks more and more of the same type of egotistical "don't listen to complaints" that led up to the infamous apology to the customers a couple of years ago!
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
#46 - 2012-12-19 20:08:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Imiarr Timshae
Norrin Ellis wrote:
Tippia, I think you missed the part where I said I play for fun, not for max efficiency. This is not my job. It is a game I enjoy. I enjoyed using all of my drones prior to the nerf. Again, if sentries are--and have always been--the one-size-fits-all solution, why have the other drones in the game?


There are some fairly good points in this thread but this one made me think of the main question I have :

CCP should be trying to get new people into the game and retain current subscribers.

Who, anywhere, is going to say to themselves "I'm definitely going to subscribe, I love it when my drones get shot." or "Man, doing these level 4 missions in my rattlesnake is just so irritating now because my drones all die, I'm definitely going to resub."

That's my only issue. They can change drones however they like, and they will be "working as intended". Just because CCP are generally ridiculous blind morons that doesn't mean they don't know that what they are doing are the actions of ridiculous blind morons and therefore "working as intended". What they should consider is that the number of people who like this change must be outweighed by people who dislike it. (Gallente and Guristas Capsuleers)

Edit:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:

Seems like a directed anti-drone move. Which really makes no sense, considering how many new drone boats they just added this patch (Tristan, Algos, Dragoon?) and how many more are soon to come (Prophecy becomes a drone boat, no?), so why introduce new ships and at the same time make them prohibitively difficult and inefficient to fly?


Imiarr Timshae wrote:
CCP are generally ridiculous blind morons

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Opertone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-12-19 20:48:45 UTC
Yes, it takes whining to a new level.

All your old woes suddenly feel unimportant in the light of AI/npc whine.


CCP mastered Hindu (India) way of curing stuff - make hurt harder elsewhere.

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again
ZhaoMin
Tennyson Court
#48 - 2012-12-19 22:02:25 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
ZhaoMin wrote:
So when I looked at the drone changes today, my conclusion is that the result of trying to improve the NPC AI is to dumb it back down again.

oooh, afk is viable again with this fixed engagment rule! watta xmas present surprise!


They never made afk non-viable. They even said in their tests, that afk drone boats were buffed. Not sure why that is so hard for people to realize, because it's been said in every thread about every AI change.



Well, my point isn't about afk drone boats, If I am then I'll tell ya that I have always afk'ed after Retribution in the dual rep setup and it worked perfectly, never have drone aggro, don't even need to throw away cheap drones to bug the AI or what not.

My point is, what is the point to make the AI constrained and yet call it enhancing the AI? That doesn't fit the what was advertised in this expansion's feature and far from the title of the blog "NPC got Brains", because a totally predictable set of actions can't be possibly classified as "AI", I mean Alice could've done better right?

and yes, almost the entire post is meant to be sarcastic because this whole AI thing attracts and revolves around sarcasms.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2012-12-19 22:20:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
I say let the NPC's defend themselves, and give the battleships smartbombs. scatter the ECM among the ships. put some long points on battleships. Twisted

I wasn't aware there was a nerf to HS mission income. I thought the NPC AI was just an improvement in pre-programmed gameplay. 4 days of noctis salvaging and looting, and I made another quarter bil in LP store items.... http://i.imgur.com/CgAQK.jpg

//ah, sorry i see you mean AFK drone income. gotcha.

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2012-12-19 22:43:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Cipher Jones wrote:
No. Using drones pre/post patch with no difficulties. CCP wanted to nerf AFK income.

Loosing more drones than I was pre patch (0). Wasn't AFK'ing then or now.
Rain6637 wrote:
//ah, sorry i see you mean AFK drone income. gotcha.

A recalled drone and a dead drone have the same DPS. Droneboats were nerfed regardless of being active or AFK.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#51 - 2012-12-19 23:24:13 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
//ah, sorry i see you mean AFK drone income. gotcha.

A recalled drone and a dead drone have the same DPS. Droneboats were nerfed regardless of being active or AFK.

Oh dear, I guess soon the "htfu"ers and "adapt or die"ers will be here.

It's a pity, my alt was planning to use drones to level standings, but opps, CCP accidentally -

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2012-12-19 23:58:12 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
//ah, sorry i see you mean AFK drone income. gotcha.

A recalled drone and a dead drone have the same DPS. Droneboats were nerfed regardless of being active or AFK.

Oh dear, I guess soon the "htfu"ers and "adapt or die"ers will be here.

It's a pity, my alt was planning to use drones to level standings, but opps, CCP accidentally -

In the end reduced DPS due to recalls isn't the end of the world nor is a lost drone here or there, but the idea that all drone users were AFK and therefore the only people nerfed were AFK'ers is slightly annoying.
Mund Richard
#53 - 2012-12-20 00:37:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Cipher Jones wrote:
No. Using drones pre/post patch with no difficulties. CCP wanted to nerf AFK income.
By making (According to CCP FoxFour, first in charge of the Drone AI change) easier than ever before.
Mhm, I get it! Roll
Don Aubaris wrote:
Ofc it will not solve anything : just yesterday I lost 5 out of 10 heavies I deployed. And no I was not afk. There were no frigs around just 1 cruiser and 2 BS. I micro-managed them. They were fighting at 30 km's. 1 hit and they were recalled. 5 did not make it back to the ship. The rest was far into armor and structure. Drones should not so easily be hit.
Wow!
I ran the numbers once how many heavies would make it back to the bay if they are chain targeted, but still wow.
Never wanted heavies for outside 5km even on a ship that has +health and damage bonus to them, yet alone on one that hasn't.
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
We were testing these changes on Duality (i believe, there has been no dev feedback). Heavies were basically useless in nearly every test.
I believe at the start, they weren't targeted at all.
And then it got fixed, and they almost weren't usable at all. Roll
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
A recalled drone and a dead drone have the same DPS. Droneboats were nerfed regardless of being active or AFK.
I like that one! Straight

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Planktal
Kenshao Industries
#54 - 2012-12-20 00:47:30 UTC
With this new rat AI, drone sigs need to be reduced by a lot, otherwise there's no point in using drones at all.

Here sanity, nice sanity.....THWOOK Got the bastard
Merouk Baas
#55 - 2012-12-20 00:54:17 UTC
Big ships can now use warriors to get rid of tackler NPC frigates, with some warrior losses. Bigger drones, meh.

A drone sig reduction would affect drone usage in PVP.
Anabelle Martinez
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-12-20 00:55:48 UTC
Norrin Ellis wrote:
Only an idiot is going to use anything other than large drones or sentries against a battleship, for example.


I don't see myself as an idiot for using light scouts in my marauder. 425s don't make contact with fast frigs or spider drones inside 30km so a web and some light scouts do the job just fine. Can't say I've lost a drone so far since the changes but I I only pull them out for anything orbiting me than right back in the bay they go.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-12-20 01:16:20 UTC
Norrin Ellis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
There is absolutely no reason to ever use heavies against anything other than close-orbiting battleships (eg. Angels and the occasional Merc).

I'm afraid I must disagree on this point. The Garde II drone has an effective range out to about 45 km. We can argue the merits of different sentries all day, but I prefer the Garde II on my all-purpose mission boat because more rat types are weak to thermal (primarily or secondarily) than any other damage type. Therefore, anything beyond 45 km is going to require the deployment of Ogre II (also selected for damage type).

Furthermore, when damped or ECM'd all to hell, the best thing to have on the field are heavies that can engage any target at any range (up to about 84 km for me). In fact, once heavies are deployed for anything, I often find it better to let them do their thing (or micromanage them) rather than wait for them to recall just to deploy sentries.

I'd be disingenuous if I didn't admit that the laziness factor is an advantage of a drone boat. Granted, I'm not AFK missioning, but I also don't need my recreational activity to feel like a chore--or a job. In exchange for their lazy factor, I accept that drones are not the most efficient weapon for clearing most missions (they shouldn't be the weapon of choice for the hardcore ISK / LP farmer). I also accept that they are, in fact, destructible, but it seems to me that the pilot who is paying attention should not be left to suffer significant drone losses--this should primarily be a concern for the person who is indeed AFK.

In short, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the utility of heavy drones. I find them useful in several circumstances.


My Garde II's have an optimal of 50km. You must be doing something wrong.

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Mund Richard
#58 - 2012-12-20 01:18:01 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
My Garde II's have an optimal of 50km. You must be doing something wrong.
57
Have I won anything?

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2012-12-20 01:23:42 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
My Garde II's have an optimal of 50km. You must be doing something wrong.
57
Have I won anything?

4x faction Omni's? Or am I missing something for that?
Mund Richard
#60 - 2012-12-20 01:27:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
My Garde II's have an optimal of 50km. You must be doing something wrong.
57
Have I won anything?
4x faction Omni's? Or am I missing something for that?
3 gets you 57.585 according to EFT, 57,59 according to the fitting screen.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.