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NPC AI Adjustment: Does it solve anything?

Author
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#161 - 2012-12-27 16:15:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Maybe they wandered into a slowcat fleet and died.

I hear a big thing is going after ratting carriers, so...


Ok so which carrier pilot blew up CCP FoxFour?


Also, I find it telling that people have been saying "Ratting in Domi with sentry still works fine" when it CCP pretty much confessed that it was AFK ratting in Domis with sentries that they were trying to make come to an end. Every person who claimed to be able to AFK drone boats always gave the exact same answer: Domi with sentires = AFK boat.

But then I honestly don't believe that they ever intended to stop that particular type of botting. After all, why would a CSM staff filled entirely with nullbears want to wreck their own special nullsec ISK fountains? And since "Domi+Sentry=AFK Kosher" those particular items have been left untouched - what a coincidence!

Who was actually hurt the most? Hisec mission runners, of course. Golly, who would want to nerf hisec income I wonder?

So yeah, it's working as intended - we were just misled as to what that intention was.

Nobody claimed that the changes would eliminate sentry drone use.
What is MUCH more difficult now is using drones AFK now, as there is a bit of micro management that needs to be done.

I don't doubt there will be some more fiddling done with NPC aggro mechanics as CCP responds to player tactics, especially on how the drones react to player EW use in a mission.

Nobody, especially CCP or the CSM, gives a damn about how high sec people run their missions... as long as they aren't able to do it AFK.

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Ginger Barbarella
#162 - 2012-12-27 16:17:16 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Pak Narhoo wrote:
The thing is, the people who cry fail and "i'll quit, hurffdruff" are those who can already do level 4's.
And the solution is, already mentioned. people just have to stop trying to make their mission boat cap stable. Cool
I'm usually not a big fan of cap stable fits but...

...Seeing your advice, I couldn't help but wonder how many people - who didn't read / plan ahead at the change - got caught unaware, with all drones dead in a pocket, tank stable, but no way out due to scramblers under the guns...



I smiled a little bit when I read that. Twisted

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Mund Richard
#163 - 2012-12-27 16:20:32 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
I smiled a little bit when I read that. Twisted
Oh yes, my stance on the larger picture aside, had a laugh when I read one of those posts. Twisted

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Ginger Barbarella
#164 - 2012-12-27 16:24:04 UTC
POKER ALICE wrote:
Seriously, CCP hates drones. They always have. It was a good run and Ill miss the old Domi but lvl4 missions are clearly meant to be done in a Tengu. Get with the program.



I'm actually having a hella good time running them in my Sleipnir on one of my mains... Haven't taken out the Tengu in over a month (considering getting rid of it). Different weps require different tactics, and the "launch and watch" approach of HMLs and HAMs were getting old even before the Tengu nerf (read: HML nerf).

Also just started using a Navy Mega, and picked up a Proteus to play with. Still prefer the Ferox (L5 BC rocks!) over the Proteus, but still...

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#165 - 2012-12-27 16:27:50 UTC
I honestly don't know why people are so up in arms about L4s and drones and cap stable fits and being AFK. I can spin a button in a FW plex AFK in a frig that costs a fraction of what I would make from that plex (around 25 mil for a 10 min plex). Even if I lost 10 frigs a day, I'd still come out ahead. And depending on the time of day/night and the system, I could go for hours without being disturbed. In terms of ISK/hr, it's probably better than running L4s in a cap stable drone boat AFK.

So I really don't see how people can feel this change was justified in any way. When you can do the same, with less risk (you risk a T1 fit frig, not a battleship), and more payoff, that can be done AFK as well.
Lexmana
#166 - 2012-12-27 16:58:55 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
I honestly don't know why people are so up in arms about L4s and drones and cap stable fits and being AFK. I can spin a button in a FW plex AFK in a frig that costs a fraction of what I would make from that plex (around 25 mil for a 10 min plex). Even if I lost 10 frigs a day, I'd still come out ahead. And depending on the time of day/night and the system, I could go for hours without being disturbed. In terms of ISK/hr, it's probably better than running L4s in a cap stable drone boat AFK.

So I really don't see how people can feel this change was justified in any way. When you can do the same, with less risk (you risk a T1 fit frig, not a battleship), and more payoff, that can be done AFK as well.


It is lowsec so any premium is well motivated. And secondly, this mechanic was designed to give PvP focused pilots in FW an income and it seems to do a decent job at that. But as most things it can be abused by farmers (like yourself). However, they also provide a very good PvP opportunity if you rather be at your computer while playing EVE.
Mund Richard
#167 - 2012-12-27 17:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Lexmana wrote:
It is lowsec so any premium is well motivated. And secondly, this mechanic was designed to give PvP focused pilots in FW an income and it seems to do a decent job at that. But as most things it can be abused by farmers (like yourself). However, they also provide a very good PvP opportunity if you rather be at your computer while playing EVE.
So originally, before considering that people could do this with the monetary reward in aim, it was fine, since it was aimed at people who do not do it primarily with the monetary reward in mind.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#168 - 2012-12-27 18:57:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
Lexmana wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
I honestly don't know why people are so up in arms about L4s and drones and cap stable fits and being AFK. I can spin a button in a FW plex AFK in a frig that costs a fraction of what I would make from that plex (around 25 mil for a 10 min plex). Even if I lost 10 frigs a day, I'd still come out ahead. And depending on the time of day/night and the system, I could go for hours without being disturbed. In terms of ISK/hr, it's probably better than running L4s in a cap stable drone boat AFK.

So I really don't see how people can feel this change was justified in any way. When you can do the same, with less risk (you risk a T1 fit frig, not a battleship), and more payoff, that can be done AFK as well.


It is lowsec so any premium is well motivated. And secondly, this mechanic was designed to give PvP focused pilots in FW an income and it seems to do a decent job at that. But as most things it can be abused by farmers (like yourself). However, they also provide a very good PvP opportunity if you rather be at your computer while playing EVE.


Sorry, but I gotta disagree with you on every single point.

There shouldn't be a premium on it because it's low-sec for a number of reasons. For one, this can be done with a brand new character just days old. In fact, most farming alts are exactly that - new characters with frig skills just high enough to take out a single frig/destroyer protecting the novice/small plex.

Secondly, risk vs reward is not maintained. What do you risk? A crap-fit T1 frigate worth 1 mil? And the reward is 2 million ISK/min? That's grossly out of whack. Further, the button was changed, so that the radius from which you can run it down is 30km, so you can conceivably be 50+ km from the warp-in beacon. Which is more than enough time to ditch if you are even remotely awake while plexing. So, what risk is there?

I also contend that the system is not being exploited, but rather is working as intended. After all, this was tested for months on the test server. Surely CCP wouldn't have released something so obviously broken, unless they intended it? They just recently changed plexes so that instead of a bunch of NPCs you had to speedtank, now you just have one NPC that crumbles in seconds. So, if anything, it's even easier to farm now.

Most of this stuff was introduced this past expansion. In other words, CCP wanted it to be done this way. And this is after months of testing on the test server. But in the meantime, they nerf L4s, even though you risk a battleship (usually with good mods), and the amount of NPCs did not increase one iota, and payout is lower (or at least comparable)? Doesn't make sense. If they didn't want people making ISK quickly and easier, they wouldn't have changed FW to quicker and easier farming. Not to mention they left FW missions unchanged (Minmatar ones are still soloable in a stealth bomber), which produces mad LP/hr.

You could argue that there's logistics involved with getting the stuff out of low sec, but even that doesn't apply. For example, Minmatar LP can be redeemed in the TLF station right in Hek (major Minmatar trading hub in high sec). So, where's the risk?

In other words, I'm sorry, but I still don't get all the rage at AFK missioning L4s in high-sec. There's other, newer farming methods that provide just as much (or way more) ISK with a lot less risk (crap fit T1 frigate). Just doesn't make sense to me. Seems more like a direct attack on drone users and high-seccers for no apparent reason.
Jason13 Anzomi
#169 - 2012-12-27 20:07:44 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Just doesn't make sense to me. Seems more like a direct attack on drone users and high-seccers for no apparent reason.


I've been saying that same thing since before the release making the change. Darned if I can figure out CCP.

And the most amazing thing is that this isn't the first time they've flubbed up by not listening to their customers. Awhile back when they released the Captains Quarters and started trying to sell items in their online store for extremely inflated prices, they lost so many customers that the head of CCP had to make a public apology. And there have been other examples of their flubs.

This time they released Retribution and immediately started cutting new patches to tone it down, further and further. Now it's been mostly nullified but it's still painful as hell for drone boats.

As I've said previously, my accounts will be shutdown very soon. Just about 12 days left on my main account and the Power of Two account will be shutdown as soon as it runs out. I'm tired of doing business with a company that pays no attention to customer wishes and does as they bloody well please!
Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
#170 - 2012-12-27 22:09:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Eraza
Mund Richard wrote:
Pak Narhoo wrote:
The thing is, the people who cry fail and "i'll quit, hurffdruff" are those who can already do level 4's.
And the solution is, already mentioned. people just have to stop trying to make their mission boat cap stable. Cool
I'm usually not a big fan of cap stable fits but...

...Seeing your advice, I couldn't help but wonder how many people - who didn't read / plan ahead at the change - got caught unaware, with all drones dead in a pocket, tank stable, but no way out due to scramblers under the guns...


have had that happen, although years ago, was VERY annoying to have to ask randoms for help against an enemy i could tank with no effort at all, and a couple of tiny frigs i had no hope of hitting, had me warp scrambled

wasted the entire pocket of everything, to the point those scrambler interceptors were the only thing left, and they couldnt get my shields passive regen down.. on an armor tank ship..

and yet i was stuck, no hope of escape..


also i seem to have missed a point, what do cap stable fits have to do with that if i have heavy drones catch aggro and they are not close to me, i will not be getting them all back(9m sp in drones)
it used to be just one or two npcs switching to drones, which made rescue possible, now, i have entire aggro groups switch to one drone suddenly

regular, predictable, unavoidable, drone replacements are annoying.. how would NOT being cap stable fix that problem?
CaiIyn Dove
DMoney Corp
#171 - 2012-12-27 22:13:52 UTC
Jason13 Anzomi wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Just doesn't make sense to me. Seems more like a direct attack on drone users and high-seccers for no apparent reason.


I've been saying that same thing since before the release making the change. Darned if I can figure out CCP.

And the most amazing thing is that this isn't the first time they've flubbed up by not listening to their customers. Awhile back when they released the Captains Quarters and started trying to sell items in their online store for extremely inflated prices, they lost so many customers that the head of CCP had to make a public apology. And there have been other examples of their flubs.

This time they released Retribution and immediately started cutting new patches to tone it down, further and further. Now it's been mostly nullified but it's still painful as hell for drone boats.

As I've said previously, my accounts will be shutdown very soon. Just about 12 days left on my main account and the Power of Two account will be shutdown as soon as it runs out. I'm tired of doing business with a company that pays no attention to customer wishes and does as they bloody well please!


Modifying the difficulty of some gameplay feature will always attracts such threats. But they are inevitable if CCP are going to push the game to a better future. Keep going CCP, if you have your plan already, you know how these changes will benefit the long term goals.
Eraza
Fuzzyness Enterprizes
#172 - 2012-12-27 22:22:01 UTC
CaiIyn Dove wrote:
Jason13 Anzomi wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
*snip*.

*snip*!


Modifying the difficulty of some gameplay feature will always attracts such threats. But they are inevitable if CCP are going to push the game to a better future. Keep going CCP, if you have your plan already, you know how these changes will benefit the long term goals.


it's easy to be prepared, dont JUST train drones, also train for a missile boat, for missions
ships like the raven have always been good for missions, although imo not that fun..
personally i love drones, but ccp clearly love missiles, so it's a safe bet missiles will never get truly messed up, keep those missile skills up, it's a good backup plan


actually that can be said with all of eve, always have a backup plan.. for everything
CaiIyn Dove
DMoney Corp
#173 - 2012-12-27 22:49:45 UTC  |  Edited by: CaiIyn Dove
Eraza wrote:


it's easy to be prepared, dont JUST train drones, also train for a missile boat, for missions
ships like the raven have always been good for missions, although imo not that fun..
personally i love drones, but ccp clearly love missiles, so it's a safe bet missiles will never get truly messed up, keep those missile skills up, it's a good backup plan

actually that can be said with all of eve, always have a backup plan.. for everything


Are you kidding? This AI change is clearly a boost to tengu and dominix, and a terrible nerf on raven.

Not mention the tengu does not need any drones. For the dominix, the new AI obviously hates the sentries less, and the high buffer and high-slot rep make the drones in a drone boat very difficult to lose.

But for any people in raven, you will see a different story. You will be forced to launch drones to kill the elite cruiser rats orbiting at 20km, and then they will kill your hammerheads before you can get then back.

The number of CNRs in mission hubs, has received a big hit after the patch. Before you can see like 7 of them in Osmon/Poinen. For now? 2 to 3.
Jason13 Anzomi
#174 - 2012-12-27 23:00:55 UTC
CaiIyn Dove wrote:
Jason13 Anzomi wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Just doesn't make sense to me. Seems more like a direct attack on drone users and high-seccers for no apparent reason.


As I've said previously, my accounts will be shutdown very soon. Just about 12 days left on my main account and the Power of Two account will be shutdown as soon as it runs out. I'm tired of doing business with a company that pays no attention to customer wishes and does as they bloody well please!


Modifying the difficulty of some gameplay feature will always attracts such threats. But they are inevitable if CCP are going to push the game to a better future. Keep going CCP, if you have your plan already, you know how these changes will benefit the long term goals.


Let's put it into another context and see if you can understand.

You love Chevy and have bought nothing but Chevy all your life. But one day they get a new CEO who decides Chey is going to build environmentally friendy cars and to heck with what the customers want! So they switch over and build only electric cars that can do a maximum of 55 mph. You decide to hell with them since they don't make a car you'd be willing to drive!

Same identical thing. You've dwelt with a company, you like their products, but one day they stop listening to customers and decide what the customer needs is more important than what they want. So, you vote with your feet and stop buying their products.

This is a sandbox that you are free to play any way you want - right? Well, someone forgot to tell CCP that detail. They've decided that after giving you a weapon system that works a certain way, you're now to scrap your time investment and go to a different weapon system. Whether that is stationary sentry drones or missiles, makes no difference. CCP knows best as to what you need! So nothing but 55 mph electric cars for you! (Hear the sound of feet marching into the distance?)
CaiIyn Dove
DMoney Corp
#175 - 2012-12-27 23:04:17 UTC  |  Edited by: CaiIyn Dove
Jason13 Anzomi wrote:


Let's put it into another context and see if you can understand.

You love Chevy and have bought nothing but Chevy all your life. But one day they get a new CEO who decides Chey is going to build environmentally friendy cars and to heck with what the customers want! So they switch over and build only electric cars that can do a maximum of 55 mph. You decide to hell with them since they don't make a car you'd be willing to drive!

Same identical thing. You've dwelt with a company, you like their products, but one day they stop listening to customers and decide what the customer needs is more important than what they want. So, you vote with your feet and stop buying their products.

This is a sandbox that you are free to play any way you want - right? Well, someone forgot to tell CCP that detail. They've decided that after giving you a weapon system that works a certain way, you're now to scrap your time investment and go to a different weapon system. Whether that is stationary sentry drones or missiles, makes no difference. CCP knows best as to what you need! So nothing but 55 mph electric cars for you! (Hear the sound of feet marching into the distance?)


Why you saying so much? I didn't try to persuade you to stay.

The better future for the game(or Chevy) is an overall concept, does not necessary to include every individual currently in the game(or Chevy).
Jason13 Anzomi
#176 - 2012-12-27 23:06:39 UTC
CaiIyn Dove wrote:
Why you saying so much? I didn't try to persuade you to stay.

The better future for the game is an overall concept, does not necessary to include every individual currently in the game.



Because some day you're going to be just as angry about some decision CCP makes that affects your game style. When that day comes you'll be screaming and someone else will say...

CaiIyn Dove wrote:
The better future for the game is an overall concept, does not necessary to include every individual currently in the game.
CaiIyn Dove
DMoney Corp
#177 - 2012-12-27 23:10:34 UTC  |  Edited by: CaiIyn Dove
Jason13 Anzomi wrote:
CaiIyn Dove wrote:
Why you saying so much? I didn't try to persuade you to stay.

The better future for the game is an overall concept, does not necessary to include every individual currently in the game.



Because some day you're going to be just as angry about some decision CCP makes that affects your game style. When that day comes you'll be screaming and someone else will say...

CaiIyn Dove wrote:
The better future for the game is an overall concept, does not necessary to include every individual currently in the game.


Personally I will never say such thing just because my game style is affected. Because I'm not that kind of short-sighted people that think the world should go the way around myself.
If you want other people to change their activities, you should let them know how their currently doing will be bad overall, not arguing that with your personal interest.
Mund Richard
#178 - 2012-12-27 23:33:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
CaiIyn Dove wrote:
Are you kidding? This AI change is clearly a boost to tengu and dominix, and a terrible nerf on raven.

Not mention the tengu does not need any drones. For the dominix, the new AI obviously hates the sentries less, and the high buffer and high-slot rep make the drones in a drone boat very difficult to lose.
So it's a boost to one drone boat, because it got hit softer than those with smaller drone bays, and sentries getting hit less overall?
As opposed to pre-patch sentries not getting hit at all, unless a new wave spawns?

I suppose that is one way to look at it...

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

POKER ALICE
Moonshine Monks Gentlemans Club
#179 - 2012-12-30 17:41:50 UTC
Quote:
For the dominix, the new AI obviously hates the sentries less




Yeah, you keep plinking away with the sentries. Ill be on my 3rd mission with my tengu while youre still madly trying to prove a point on your first mission. Whatever floats your boat....

"If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it. And if you dont deserve what you have and we cant make you lose it, we will ask CCP to nerf it"

Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#180 - 2012-12-30 18:13:31 UTC
CaiIyn Dove wrote:
Modifying the difficulty of some gameplay feature will always attracts such threats. But they are inevitable if CCP are going to push the game to a better future. Keep going CCP, if you have your plan already, you know how these changes will benefit the long term goals.


The problem with your "modifying the difficulty" argument is that only a relatively small subset of people is affected. Namely drone boat users. The change didn't really affect solo pilots of non-drone boats much, if at all.

Now, you could argue that drones were overpowered, and this change brings drone boats in line with other boats. But that is demonstrably false as drone boats were never as ISK/hr efficient as other ships. When asked what is the optimal L4 boat, virtually nobody would give you a drone boat as the answer.

So, what does that mean? It means the situation is unbalanced. As drone boats, which were suboptimal to begin with, ended up being further needlessly complicated in their use. And unbalanced is bad. And bad is...well...bad!

See the problem yet?

I also question your belief that this somehow leads to a "better future". Current new AI isn't better in any way, shape or form. Many/most solo pilots are completely unaffected by this change. How is that better? Someone running an L4 in a Tengu will see virtually zero difference. While someone in a drone boat will be pressing considerably more buttons and doing considerably more micromanagement. And these actions are not challenging OR entertaining. It's just busywork. So, how is that better? It's like forcing people to repeatedly mash W when they want to have their character walk forward, instead of allowing them to hold down the W key. Can you see anyone in their right mind calling that better?

Overall, I just don't see it. And for the record, I spend 99% of my time in FW right now, so the AI change doesn't really affect me at all. So I don't have a pony in this race. It was just a dumb thing for CCP to do.