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[Duality] NPC aggression against drones and Safety persistence changes

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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#61 - 2012-12-17 18:47:30 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Hmm, seems Fozzie is now on vacation too ... so i wonder which dev is next up on the list.


Just another indication of how seriously CCP considers PvE income as a problem.
Precisely how long do you think it would take CCP to fix a problem with moon goo production, if they had introduced serious defects to it?

Do you think that dev's would be going on vacation and ignoring the problem.

And on another related note, I decided not to do any testing of these tweaks, other than to test out a Vargur under the new conditions. CCP has made it abundantly clear that this is all lip service, and they will ram through these changes unaltered, just like they did with the UI, just like they did with the FW LP farming, just like they did with the initial Retribution AI.

I will no longer waste my time trying to help them by providing feedback like I did with the original AI testing.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#62 - 2012-12-18 06:59:16 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Hmm, seems Fozzie is now on vacation too ... so i wonder which dev is next up on the list.


Just another indication of how seriously CCP considers PvE income as a problem.
Precisely how long do you think it would take CCP to fix a problem with moon goo production, if they had introduced serious defects to it?

Do you think that dev's would be going on vacation and ignoring the problem.

And on another related note, I decided not to do any testing of these tweaks, other than to test out a Vargur under the new conditions. CCP has made it abundantly clear that this is all lip service, and they will ram through these changes unaltered, just like they did with the UI, just like they did with the FW LP farming, just like they did with the initial Retribution AI.

I will no longer waste my time trying to help them by providing feedback like I did with the original AI testing.

Hey Scrooge, maybe you didn't notice but its Christmas. Traveling over the next week will get more and more difficult. Do you expect ever Dev, including those not native to Iceland, to hang around until Christmas eve to be at your beck and call? EU law states that they are entitled to a minimum of 20 days holiday a year, they can take it when they want.

Your whining about how CCP isn't listening isn't helping either. The thread is for feedback, not whining and trying to discourage others from providing it.

Friends
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-12-18 08:22:05 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Your whining about how CCP isn't listening isn't helping either. The thread is for feedback, not whining and trying to discourage others from providing it.



On balance, it's worth pointing out the mini-threadnaught(s) of the AI feedback last time. They pretty much foretold this, almost to the letter.

I can understand a certain degree of cynicism by former participants of those threads/tests.
Mund Richard
#64 - 2012-12-18 11:41:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
On balance, it's worth pointing out the mini-threadnaught(s) of the AI feedback last time. They pretty much foretold this, almost to the letter.

I can understand a certain degree of cynicism by former participants of those threads/tests.

Thank you.

It's also worth noting, that CCP could release new expansions after the holidays...
[sarcasm]
But then they wouldn't get all the holiday budget allocated to PLEX purchase, to cover for ship losses due to the new AI and related bugs.
[/sarcasm]
edit: [sarcasm]
OMG, I'm sounding more like Pirannha again. Shocked
[/sarcasm]

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#65 - 2012-12-18 14:44:32 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
It's also worth noting, that CCP could release new expansions after the holidays...


Yeah, I almost wrote this exact same thing last night. I mean, this expansion in general went down OK. But what if they broke something really serious, and it didn't surface for a week or two, but when it did it wouldn't be an easy patch? And right around X-Mas and New Years, when people are off somewhere and can't just come back to the office at the drop of the hat? What then? Dicey. And it's not like there's a rigid schedule they have to stick to because of still competition, like so many other genres do.

But yeah, it's fine. Maybe they'll come back with a fresh perspective on things. It's not like the game is totally broken, you can just cross-train into a Tengu in under a month like everyone else and be totally unaffected by this change. At any rate it'll be much faster than waiting for a decent fix.
Mund Richard
#66 - 2012-12-18 14:49:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
But yeah, it's fine. Maybe they'll come back with a fresh perspective on things. It's not like the game is totally broken, you can just cross-train into a Tengu in under a month like everyone else and be totally unaffected by this change. At any rate it'll be much faster than waiting for a decent fix.
Now now, don't go oversimplifying it!
Offensive Subsys at V, the rest at IV and HM/HAM spec at II takes more like 50ish days.
Oh wait, wrong remap, make that 40.

And the game is really not totally broken, just a hassle, and L4s, which were never fun to begin with but doable so you have the isk for having fun now feel more like a chore than ever before.
Well, since I never AFK-d them anyways (I prefer to call targets for my sentries), it doesn't matter much to me.
Good thing I use sentry boats.

I'm all for a fresh perspective, I had one or two with the new AI change, hope CCP gets some as well.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#67 - 2012-12-18 15:09:29 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Your whining about how CCP isn't listening isn't helping either. The thread is for feedback, not whining and trying to discourage others from providing it.



On balance, it's worth pointing out the mini-threadnaught(s) of the AI feedback last time. They pretty much foretold this, almost to the letter.

I can understand a certain degree of cynicism by former participants of those threads/tests.

I understand a certain amount myself. But citing that Devs are going home for Christmas with their families means that they don't care about this aspect of the game is ridiculous.

Friends
Rengerel en Distel
#68 - 2012-12-18 16:43:44 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Your whining about how CCP isn't listening isn't helping either. The thread is for feedback, not whining and trying to discourage others from providing it.



On balance, it's worth pointing out the mini-threadnaught(s) of the AI feedback last time. They pretty much foretold this, almost to the letter.

I can understand a certain degree of cynicism by former participants of those threads/tests.

I understand a certain amount myself. But citing that Devs are going home for Christmas with their families means that they don't care about this aspect of the game is ridiculous.


I think some of the frustration was/is that it took one test to see that it wasn't adjusted correctly. So within an hour of Duality going up, we knew it was still borked, but the Devs were all gone. So Duality is up, but further testing isn't going to make it less borked, only a Dev actually making a change will matter.

Hopefully someone else from the team could adjust the slider and let us know to test again.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#69 - 2012-12-18 23:47:30 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
On balance, it's worth pointing out the mini-threadnaught(s) of the AI feedback last time. They pretty much foretold this, almost to the letter.

I can understand a certain degree of cynicism by former participants of those threads/tests.

Thank you.

It's also worth noting, that CCP could release new expansions after the holidays...
[sarcasm]
But then they wouldn't get all the holiday budget allocated to PLEX purchase, to cover for ship losses due to the new AI and related bugs.
[/sarcasm]
edit: [sarcasm]
OMG, I'm sounding more like Pirannha again. Shocked
[/sarcasm]


Mund, maybe if more people sounded like me, we would see some movement, or rather, lack of changes.
I once, many years, many posts ago, tried to be reasonable and hoped that facts and reason would win out in the end.
That has not been the case.

I watch daily now outrageous lie after outrageous lie posted, and the sheer volume of them supporting some agenda ultimately win out in the end, and I get very upset.

I think one of the tipping points was when I called some guy posting in a test feedback thread a liar. He had posted how unaffected his drones were by the new AI. Funny thing, given that the new AI he was referencing was unavailable as the test server had not gone up yet when he posted. ISD shut down my post, and chastised me for calling a liar "a liar".

I have reached the opinion that it is done deal. Everything that the null sec zealots want to do to attack mission running, Incursion running, and now it appears high sec industry, is followed precisely by CCP doing just what the null sec zealots propose.

So yeah, call me insane, call me tin foil.
Just remember that when mission income and high sec industry income, and soon again, Incursion income, are smoking ruins.
Mund Richard
#70 - 2012-12-19 00:03:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Mund, maybe if more people sounded like me, we would see some movement, or rather, lack of changes.

Change is not bad.
It's how they chose to implement it with the least effort and foresight in this case.
Yes, I was there with you, saying this ain't a good idea the way it is.
That where the AI works marvelously, those places were designed for it, from rat numbers and composions to rewards, and changing the outdated (lack of) AI in missions without changing the outdated missions themselves ain't the smartest move.

The Incursion nerf though got undone in the end, no?

What I don't understand is, why the L4s are supposed to be so good isk?
Living in null, just flying from one Forlorn/Forsaken Hubs to the next in the same system, I didn't bother with wrecks or salvage, didn't get any LP or mission payout, yet somehow I seemed to make a lot more isk. Heck, at one point, I had a newbro of the corp just go to salvage bookmarks I've left behind, and gave it all to him.
Maybe I was doing missions wrong?

Oh, right, risk vs reward?
Last time an SB tackled me, the rats put him into hull before he shot the third bunch of torps. Roll
Not to mention I knew he was coming back, and felt confidant he couldn't kill me solo (and according to intel channel, he didn't have friends nearby, while I did). There were too few rats to assist him even if he didn't grab agro, he didn't deal damage in any resist hole, and I had a full flight of tripple DDA drone hull bonused hobgoblins ready (and spare flights in case he is using a bomb).
If only I had a warp disruptor as well...

Ok, ok, I'll go and try find a shiny tinfoil hat.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Rengerel en Distel
#71 - 2012-12-19 12:49:34 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Mund, maybe if more people sounded like me, we would see some movement, or rather, lack of changes.

Change is not bad.
It's how they chose to implement it with the least effort and foresight in this case.
Yes, I was there with you, saying this ain't a good idea the way it is.
That where the AI works marvelously, those places were designed for it, from rat numbers and composions to rewards, and changing the outdated (lack of) AI in missions without changing the outdated missions themselves ain't the smartest move.

The Incursion nerf though got undone in the end, no?

What I don't understand is, why the L4s are supposed to be so good isk?
Living in null, just flying from one Forlorn/Forsaken Hubs to the next in the same system, I didn't bother with wrecks or salvage, didn't get any LP or mission payout, yet somehow I seemed to make a lot more isk. Heck, at one point, I had a newbro of the corp just go to salvage bookmarks I've left behind, and gave it all to him.
Maybe I was doing missions wrong?

Oh, right, risk vs reward?
Last time an SB tackled me, the rats put him into hull before he shot the third bunch of torps. Roll
Not to mention I knew he was coming back, and felt confidant he couldn't kill me solo (and according to intel channel, he didn't have friends nearby, while I did). There were too few rats to assist him even if he didn't grab agro, he didn't deal damage in any resist hole, and I had a full flight of tripple DDA drone hull bonused hobgoblins ready (and spare flights in case he is using a bomb).
If only I had a warp disruptor as well...

Ok, ok, I'll go and try find a shiny tinfoil hat.


The ones claiming Level 4s are too good in high sec weren't really talking about drone boats. Tengus/Mach might finish a mission in 15 min, while it takes me 45 in a rattler. Even those guys aren't making what you could make in null SOV, but that's where most of the risk/reward numbers come out, when they claim to be making 90M/hr. Even that figure is probably inflated based on getting the missions with the most bounties that they can slice through. You get Duo of Death 3 or 4 times in a row, and you're making 10M/hr.

It seems from the patch today though, that the Duality AI is now live?
Quote:
NPC

NPCs will now only target drones in their size category.
Elite frigates and cruisers NPCs will go for small drones and above.
Frigates and Cruisers NPCs will go for medium drones and above.
Battleship NPCs will go for large drones.


We said it still wasn't right, and without a word in the thread, it goes live. So I guess as long as you can take out the elite frigates and elite cruisers with something other than lights, you're good to go after that. At least this should make level 1s and 2s possible for new players again.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Mund Richard
#72 - 2012-12-19 12:56:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
It seems from the patch today though, that the Duality AI is now live?
Quote:
NPCs will now only target drones in their size category.
Elite frigates and cruisers NPCs will go for small drones and above.
Frigates and Cruisers NPCs will go for medium drones and above.
Battleship NPCs will go for large drones.
We said it still wasn't right, and without a word in the thread, it goes live. So I guess as long as you can take out the elite frigates and elite cruisers with something other than lights, you're good to go after that. At least this should make level 1s and 2s possible for new players again.
WOW

Talk about communication with the customers.

I don't quite comprehend though.
Small drone: T2 frig and Cruiser - so getting rid of tackle in a L4 is the same as before, and Cruisers are apparently appropriate size for a small drone? Roll

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Rengerel en Distel
#73 - 2012-12-19 13:04:36 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
It seems from the patch today though, that the Duality AI is now live?
Quote:
NPCs will now only target drones in their size category.
Elite frigates and cruisers NPCs will go for small drones and above.
Frigates and Cruisers NPCs will go for medium drones and above.
Battleship NPCs will go for large drones.
We said it still wasn't right, and without a word in the thread, it goes live. So I guess as long as you can take out the elite frigates and elite cruisers with something other than lights, you're good to go after that. At least this should make level 1s and 2s possible for new players again.
WOW

Talk about communication with the customers.

I don't quite comprehend though.
Small drone: T2 frig and Cruiser - so getting rid of tackle in a L4 is the same as before, and Cruisers are apparently appropriate size for a small drone? Roll


I believe it's elite frigates and elite cruisers. just worded poorly.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Mund Richard
#74 - 2012-12-19 13:06:21 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
I believe it's elite frigates and elite cruisers. just worded poorly.

What you say makes sense!

Elite cruisers (usually larger sig than normals) considering frigs appropiate targets... somewhat less so still imho.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#75 - 2012-12-19 14:15:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
We said it still wasn't right, and without a word in the thread, it goes live.


Sigh...yeah, I don't know why I bother any more.

Another failed change. With rules like this, what's the point of "AI switching aggro to drones" with the new AI, if it gets overridden by size? That is, downsizing drones makes them 100% safe! You can still run missions AFK if you know upcoming spawns will not include anything that will attack your downsized drones. Honestly, way to go CCP... First release a change that doesn't do anything good, then patch it in a way that completely nullifies the original change, re-introducing and reinforcing the mechanic you were trying to eliminate in the first place. Roll

And not a word about anything in this thread either, which is just awesome. Fantastic communication.

Though I admit I didn't test out elite frigs/cruisers, they weren't in any missions I tried. But I guess as long as they're quickly dealt with at range with sentries, just release smalls or mediums after that and go to bed. The drones will do the rest. Vast improvement in PvE...right... Ugh
Mund Richard
#76 - 2012-12-19 14:19:45 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Though I admit I didn't test out elite frigs/cruisers, they weren't in any missions I tried. Ugh

Really? Shocked
I don't recall when was the last time I did any without one.
Maybe Damsel? CBA remembering that, they die while trying to get near me anyways. Roll
Warping in at 100 is haxx, no wonder the hardest ones are (usually) the gated ones.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-12-19 14:33:01 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Though I admit I didn't test out elite frigs/cruisers, they weren't in any missions I tried. Ugh

Really? Shocked
I don't recall when was the last time I did any without one.
Maybe Damsel? CBA remembering that, they die while trying to get near me anyways. Roll
Warping in at 100 is haxx, no wonder the hardest ones are (usually) the gated ones.


Yeah, it's weird, but I'm pretty sure the missions I did it was just standard frigs and cruisers, none of the fancy stuff. I actually remember thinking what elites would do, but I just assumed they would behave the same way, and I didn't dig into the DB dump to check the stats.

One thing that occurs to me though, with this change I still wouldn't want to be a newbie player who trained Gallente, and to a slightly lesser degree Amarr (the two drone races). I mean, imagine starting the game in L1s and L2s trying to do them with a destroyer or cruiser that has drones? When it's nothing but wall-to-wall frigs and cruisers? And you don't have Sentry skills yet? That's a pretty nasty place to be.

So, for old hands, the AI change overall is meh. We can still adapt, and run missions and rat semi-AFK like before. But for a newbie? A newbie who likes drones? This latest fix won't really fix much. His choice will be lights and mediums. And both will be attacked by elites? Sad

So...yeah...I don't really know how to feel just now. I mean, on one hand I don't give a toss any more, since I've started cross-training away from drones like every other sane person. On the other hand, do I want to support a company that makes these kinds of decisions and thinks they're good and actually improve the game?
Mund Richard
#78 - 2012-12-19 15:14:04 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
So, for old hands, the AI change overall is meh. We can still adapt, and run missions and rat semi-AFK like before. But for a newbie? A newbie who likes drones? This latest fix won't really fix much. His choice will be lights and mediums. And both will be attacked by elites? Sad

Correct me if I'm wrong, but on top of my head, I can only name 1 level 1 that has an elite, and no level 2.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-12-19 16:04:39 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
So, for old hands, the AI change overall is meh. We can still adapt, and run missions and rat semi-AFK like before. But for a newbie? A newbie who likes drones? This latest fix won't really fix much. His choice will be lights and mediums. And both will be attacked by elites? Sad

Correct me if I'm wrong, but on top of my head, I can only name 1 level 1 that has an elite, and no level 2.


There's quite a few, if I remember right. I'm a little foggy, but off the top of my head:

The Blockade, L2 vs Angels, you'll get multiple (4?) Arch Gistii frigates that web/scram. They will do a number on lights/mediums, considering they WILL focus fire on the same drone.

Cargo Delivery, L2 vs Angels, DEFINITELY had elite frigs, I remember that quite distinctly because first time I did it I thought it was a good idea to stick around and fight, instead of just grabbing the item and getting the heck out.

Pirate Campers, L2 vs (Angel or Gurista? Can't remember), also had elite frigs. Though not nearly as many as The Blockade in a single wave.

Intercept the Saboteurs, L2 vs Amarr I believe had elites, interceptors if I recall.

Oh, and Mission of Mercy, L2 vs Angels or some other faction had some, there was an elite in every wave. Not many, 1-2, but they do add up.

And this is against new player? With imperfect drone and hull skills (likely low Drone Durability)? I don't know. Seems quite hairy. Compare that to any other ship type. I think a newbie would be MUCH better off in a Corax, rolling his face across the F1-F(X) keys and not worrying about a thing. Compared to running the same mission in an Algos and micromanaging and maybe losing drones left and right. And even if not losing drones, he would still be recalling/releasing them over and over == loss of DPS.

I hardly think this is balanced or fair, do you?
Mund Richard
#80 - 2012-12-19 16:24:48 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
I hardly think this is balanced or fair, do you?
Fair?
No.
Educational?
Yes.

The sooner they are faced with the choice of sticking to drones or going for missiles/winmatar, the better. Roll

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.