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[Duality] NPC aggression against drones and Safety persistence changes

First post
Author
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#81 - 2012-12-19 17:39:56 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
I hardly think this is balanced or fair, do you?
Fair?
No.
Educational?
Yes.

The sooner they are faced with the choice of sticking to drones or going for missiles/winmatar, the better. Roll


That's true I guess. I mean, if I knew then what I know now, I certainly would have done things different.

But back to the point. If it's not fair and unbalanced, shouldn't it...I don't know...get balanced? I know this sounds crazy, but maybe it's worth trying, just to see how it feels? Huh, CCP? What do you think? Blink

Seriously though, sometimes these guys make very little sense. In the same expansion that they're changing a number of ships into drone boats, and adding several new drone boats, they go and nerf the heck out of drone usage with this AI stuff? And in the upcoming patches they're adding even more drone boats (rumor has it Prophecy will become a drone boat), in a game where almost nobody ever uses drone boats (because of all the stuff I mentioned above)? I mean, look at EVEKill top 20. See a drone boat anywhere in there? Nope? Odd, huh? I wonder why that is. Must be because they're just so darn powerful and efficient that no self-respecting pilot would be caught using one... Roll
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#82 - 2012-12-19 23:26:47 UTC
Hey everyone thanks for the feedback so far. As you saw we released the most recent version since it was determined to be an incremental improvement over the old code, but like everything in Eve this is a work in progress and we'll keep working on it.
I'm visiting family for the Holidays but I sent a summary of the thread so far to the team members who are still at the office.

Merry Christmas and I'll talk to you guys later.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Mund Richard
#83 - 2012-12-19 23:34:54 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone thanks for the feedback so far. As you saw we released the most recent version since it was determined to be an incremental improvement over the old code, but like everything in Eve this is a work in progress and we'll keep working on it.
I'm visiting family for the Holidays but I sent a summary of the thread so far to the team members who are still at the office.

Merry Christmas and I'll talk to you guys later.
Merry Christmas!

So we can expect somewhere in january a new version to be deployed on the test servers, and hopefully a more two-sided conversation next time?

(Please no tinfoil hats and trolling guys.)

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#84 - 2012-12-20 00:33:38 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Merry Christmas and I'll talk to you guys later.


Merry Christmas to you as well! Get a lot of good rest...it's going to be a long year. Assuming Mayans weren't right and we're not all croaking day after tomorrow.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#85 - 2012-12-20 01:17:35 UTC
So let's see if I got this right.
I haven't logged onto the game in a few days, because I am so pissed off with CCP.

They introduce new changes to the AI on Duality, and have it up for about 5 days.
One, maybe 2 guys give extremely detailed test results, which show even more devastating changes to ISK/hour than what came out two weeks ago.
CCP does not even acknowledge any of the test results posted by a couple people busting their ass.
CCP then, just before going on vacation, release this code without any comments, this new, even more devastating AI, without any changes.

Right.....and I am the crazy one for suggesting their is a conspiracy.
How about just utter incompetence?
Is that a better fit?

Going to love see people run Buzzkill with this new AI.
Or what all the BS pilots will do when they have elite frigs scramming and webbing them and are under their guns.
If I can't use small drones to nail the elite frigs, what precisely am I supposed to use, harsh language?

Guess it is time to focus on Incursions, but I imagine there will be a huge rush to them as all the mission runners realize they are finished.
Mund Richard
#86 - 2012-12-20 01:20:23 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Going to love see people run Buzzkill with this new AI.
Even pre-AI upgrade I only saw that mission once, and even then only because someone else in my fleet accepted it. Roll

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2012-12-20 07:52:07 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Going to love see people run Buzzkill with this new AI.
Even pre-AI upgrade I only saw that mission once, and even then only because someone else in my fleet accepted it. Roll


I havent run missions in few years but ive done that said mission atleast 50 times. And i can say it sucked even few years back with cruise cnr. Little did precision missiles and target painters help...
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2012-12-20 07:54:23 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone thanks for the feedback so far. As you saw we released the most recent version since it was determined to be an incremental improvement over the old code, but like everything in Eve this is a work in progress and we'll keep working on it.
I'm visiting family for the Holidays but I sent a summary of the thread so far to the team members who are still at the office.

Merry Christmas and I'll talk to you guys later.


Merry Xmas to CCP too..

Guess you guys fix rest of stuff next year.. Hehhehe


Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#89 - 2012-12-20 20:17:28 UTC
So Fox Four has the time to follow the forums and comment about the Lego Rifter not being made, but can't comment in this thread.

Quite telling, I would suggest.
If CCP's actions can be summed in words:
"Drones are dead, losers. Deal with it. Go to null sec where you should be."
Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID
#90 - 2012-12-20 21:35:56 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
So Fox Four has the time to follow the forums and comment about the Lego Rifter not being made, but can't comment in this thread.

Quite telling, I would suggest.
If CCP's actions can be summed in words:
"Drones are dead, losers. Deal with it. Go to null sec where you should be."

I would like to request an "BLOCK" button, just like ingame, so I don't have to read any more of Dinsdale's posts. Dude, you whine more than Threshers!
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#91 - 2012-12-20 22:38:57 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
So Fox Four has the time to follow the forums and comment about the Lego Rifter not being made, but can't comment in this thread.

Quite telling, I would suggest.
If CCP's actions can be summed in words:
"Drones are dead, losers. Deal with it. Go to null sec where you should be."

I would like to request an "BLOCK" button, just like ingame, so I don't have to read any more of Dinsdale's posts. Dude, you whine more than Threshers!


Some call it a whine. Others call it fighting the good fight. (But the fight is lost. High sec will be a smoking ruins within 2 more releases.)
Some call it tin foil. Others call it understanding precisely how the suggested mechanics will impact the game.

Let's see:

I whined about datacore income farming getting vastly more than a 50% nerf. Turns out the nerf was more to the tune of 80-90%.
I whined about the changes to Incursion running were far far more than a 10% nerf. Turns out it is more like a 50% nerf, even AFTER CCP rolled back some of the changes.
I whined about drones, and in extension, high sec mission running, being devastated. Guess how that is turning out?
I am now supposedly tin foiling about high sec industry on the chopping block. Funny, seems like a lead designer stated May 2nd, 2012, that the plans for hammering high sec industry were in the works: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1230077#post1230077


But yeah, you keep on calling me a whiner and some batshit crazy tinfoiler.
If you don't depend on high sec income, you are dancing gleefully around the room. If you do depend on it, and you are calling me a whiner...don't know what to say.
Adigard
RubberDuckies
#92 - 2012-12-21 01:45:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Adigard
[deleted]
Mund Richard
#93 - 2012-12-21 02:00:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
I would like to request an "BLOCK" button
You mean a "Hide Posts" Button?
If only we had one of those... Roll
nudgenudgewinkwink

Disclaimer:
Should there be such a button, and not function as perfectly as you'd desire, I wouldn't know about it.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Eliza Naskingar
Doomheim
#94 - 2012-12-21 03:29:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Eliza Naskingar
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Going to love see people run Buzzkill with this new AI.
Or what all the BS pilots will do when they have elite frigs scramming and webbing them and are under their guns.
If I can't use small drones to nail the elite frigs, what precisely am I supposed to use, harsh language?

Maybe while the elite frigates are murdering the light drones of a hypothetical battleship the pilot of said battleship could try warping away because THE FRIGATES ARE OBVIOUSLY AT THAT MOMENT SHOOTING/SCRAMMING THEIR DRONES INSTEAD OF THEIR SHIP?

or fit the get-out-of-jail-free card that is the micro jump drive to said battleship

Wait, no, either of those things would require a pilot that dares to try new tactics instead of expecting the same strategy to work forever

better to just sit there and die than try to figure out how to deal with new game mechanics I guess
Rengerel en Distel
#95 - 2012-12-21 13:46:35 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
So Fox Four has the time to follow the forums and comment about the Lego Rifter not being made, but can't comment in this thread.

Quite telling, I would suggest.
If CCP's actions can be summed in words:
"Drones are dead, losers. Deal with it. Go to null sec where you should be."


Hard to know for sure, since CCP won't list what each team is working on, but FoxFour now has a different team name. Can only guess that it means he's no longer working on the AI at all. Again, only a guess. Pretty sure he's also still on vacation, so posting on the forums with his phone or whatever would be easier than coding anything while out of the country.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID
#96 - 2012-12-21 16:04:48 UTC
Eliza Naskingar wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Going to love see people run Buzzkill with this new AI.
Or what all the BS pilots will do when they have elite frigs scramming and webbing them and are under their guns.
If I can't use small drones to nail the elite frigs, what precisely am I supposed to use, harsh language?

Maybe while the elite frigates are murdering the light drones of a hypothetical battleship the pilot of said battleship could try warping away because THE FRIGATES ARE OBVIOUSLY AT THAT MOMENT SHOOTING/SCRAMMING THEIR DRONES INSTEAD OF THEIR SHIP?

or fit the get-out-of-jail-free card that is the micro jump drive to said battleship

Wait, no, either of those things would require a pilot that dares to try new tactics instead of expecting the same strategy to work forever

better to just sit there and die than try to figure out how to deal with new game mechanics I guess

Out of curiosity, does the MJD break target locks, incoming and/or outgoing, upon activation, like hitting warp?
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-12-21 19:04:40 UTC
Eliza Naskingar wrote:
Maybe while the elite frigates are murdering the light drones of a hypothetical battleship the pilot of said battleship could try warping away because THE FRIGATES ARE OBVIOUSLY AT THAT MOMENT SHOOTING/SCRAMMING THEIR DRONES INSTEAD OF THEIR SHIP?


Don't quote me on this, but I believe with the new AI the ships can now attack one target and EWAR a completely different target.

It's in Retribution feature list, but I didn't personally test this:
"Selecting secondary targets – NPCs can attack multiple targets, sometimes firing on one player while jamming or disrupting another."

Quote:
or fit the get-out-of-jail-free card that is the micro jump drive to said battleship


MJD is nice. But remember there's such a thing in the game as Heavy Drones? Yeah, those. Some of us were even stupid enough to train them to T2. Well, those guys are pretty much unusable now (as everyone, from frigs to battleships) will attack them. So MJD is only really good for Sentries, and abysmal for Heavies. That makes Heavies rather useless. Useless == needs a review to be useful. Currently, there's a really tiny niche where Heavies are any good at all. Most of the time they're just totally wasted training.

The situation is far, far from ideal.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#98 - 2012-12-21 19:31:56 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Eliza Naskingar wrote:
Maybe while the elite frigates are murdering the light drones of a hypothetical battleship the pilot of said battleship could try warping away because THE FRIGATES ARE OBVIOUSLY AT THAT MOMENT SHOOTING/SCRAMMING THEIR DRONES INSTEAD OF THEIR SHIP?


Don't quote me on this, but I believe with the new AI the ships can now attack one target and EWAR a completely different target.

It's in Retribution feature list, but I didn't personally test this:
"Selecting secondary targets – NPCs can attack multiple targets, sometimes firing on one player while jamming or disrupting another."

Quote:
or fit the get-out-of-jail-free card that is the micro jump drive to said battleship


MJD is nice. But remember there's such a thing in the game as Heavy Drones? Yeah, those. Some of us were even stupid enough to train them to T2. Well, those guys are pretty much unusable now (as everyone, from frigs to battleships) will attack them. So MJD is only really good for Sentries, and abysmal for Heavies. That makes Heavies rather useless. Useless == needs a review to be useful. Currently, there's a really tiny niche where Heavies are any good at all. Most of the time they're just totally wasted training.

The situation is far, far from ideal.



Why even engage the troll?
Clearly, when he makes comments about using a MJD in a mission, he has zero clue about the mechanics of a mission, and cares nothing and knows nothing about the disaster this AI has created.
Vatek
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2012-12-21 19:44:28 UTC
Cross-posting from the main AI thread:

We were promised specific PVP fixes that were to go live "after Retribution" by Foxfour in a post in early November (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2158421#post2158421 for reference). When are these changes expected to go live?
Mund Richard
#100 - 2012-12-21 19:44:38 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Why even engage the troll?
Clearly, when he makes comments about using a MJD in a mission, he has zero clue about the mechanics of a mission, and cares nothing and knows nothing about the disaster this AI has created.

In all honesty, one of my ideas does include it.
Tested the thing, works while being disrupted, just need good dps (more than one acc) to burn everything to hell while they are closing in, and you can possibly tank a mission with (double) XLASB?
Cheesy.
Might improve isk/h from pre-AI levels.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.