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Crimewatch Suspect flag issue / Logistics on Killmails

First post
Author
Karti Aivo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2012-12-11 18:23:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Karti Aivo
Hello dear Crimewatch developers!

First off in general i really like the new crimewatch system.
Lowsec PVP is a lot quicker now (unless u shoot pods) because you dont have to sit out this annoying Timers anymore and Tradehubs are filled with dead "criminals" being podded to nirvana.

But the new Crimewatch system is a curse for Logistics pilots. Or at least for Logistics Pilots who don't use any offensive Modules. And this flaw lays in the "Limited Engagement" mechanic. I experienced that myself as me and a corp mate lost two augorors due to this weird mechanic. I petitioned the loss and the response was the Following:

Quote:

The reason you received a suspect flag was because you activated your Medium 'Regard' Power Projector on TehCloud's ship. TehCloud had a suspect flag from activating his Power Projector on your ship, providing assistance in a limited engagement in which he was not involved. However, this original suspect flag should not have been created since your target, Corniel, was a suspect and therefore a legal target for everyone including TehCloud.


From a logical Point of View this answer makes sense - but not from the Point of View of the Crimewatch 2.0 so i quickly became another response on the same petition:

Quote:
Regarding what I said earlier about the suspect flag being unintended, I was corrected after I said it. The suspect flag you and TehCloud received was intended, and here is exactly why...

Your target was a suspect, so your attack on him was legal. However, the way inheritance currently works in Crimewatch 2.0, anyone who wishes to assist against a target, even if the target is a legal one, must first obtain a limited engagement with the target, most easily by shooting him. Providing assistance against even a legal target before obtaining a limited engagement is considered a suspect action.


If you are a Logistics Pilot without any offensive Module you are totally screwed when u want to assist someone shooting a Suspect.

A solution what would make sense for this would be that a limited engagement is created between the Suspect and the Assisting Logistics Pilot. It seems to fix this issue the perfect solution would be to let Logi's / Assists appear on Killmails (a long demanded thing by lots of players :P) so that a limited engagement between the suspect and the Logi is created. Otherwise u would still punish "Full Logi" people.

Because i can see the same issue causing problems in Lowsec aswell where all the logis would have to go suspect if they assist some friends shooting suspects and therefore could be attacked by 3rd Partys without causing a sec hit for the 3rd Party.

If Assisting would somehow be treated as "agressive" act aswell to let you appear on killmails the Enemy of the ones who are assisted by the Logi's could still shoot the Logi without a problem but 3rd Party's still would have to take at least a sec hit and a suspect flag aswell if they decide to agress.

Another example to make this more clear: I am in a war. There are three wartargets. A Corpmate in a combatship engages all three of them so he is in a limited engagement with all three. I enter the field as a logistics and get shot by two wargets therefore i have only 2 limited engagements. If i now rep my Corpmate i would go suspect because i am not in a limited engagement with the 3rd wartarget.


Yours

Karti
Kenneth Skybound
Gallifrey Resources
#2 - 2012-12-11 18:25:55 UTC
Full support. You have it bang on.
Mu Arr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-12-11 19:12:00 UTC
Great points, couldnt agree more!!
Gneeznow
Ship spinners inc
#4 - 2012-12-11 19:18:09 UTC
You're a fabulous man with fabulous points. Logistics going suspect when they shouldn't is a pain in the behind.
GM Smiley
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
#5 - 2012-12-11 19:35:35 UTC
For the record, I approve OP's quotes. Blink

GM Smiley | Game Master

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#6 - 2012-12-11 20:03:13 UTC
Logi boats deserve special consideration, the suspect flag should not exist for them this way obviously.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#7 - 2012-12-11 20:08:16 UTC
I must confess. I'm sick of fitting target painters or points to my logis to get in on the sexy time.

Give me free killmails for doing my job!

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#8 - 2012-12-11 21:16:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Seranova Farreach
logi do not deserve special consideration at all, they assist a suspect / criminal then they pay the consiquences. END OF STORY

ps. let us not forget the rampant abuse of "neut logi" pre retrebution.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#9 - 2012-12-11 21:17:43 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
I must confess. I'm sick of fitting target painters or points to my logis to get in on the sexy time.

Give me free killmails for doing my job!


i agree.. sort of like you assisted player A to kill player B so you should be on the killmail for helping them

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#10 - 2012-12-11 21:18:31 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Logi boats deserve special consideration, the suspect flag should not exist for them this way obviously.

NO. it is there so that neutral logi isnt a problem nor an exploited mechanic

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#11 - 2012-12-11 21:39:21 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Logi boats deserve special consideration, the suspect flag should not exist for them this way obviously.

NO. it is there so that neutral logi isnt a problem nor an exploited mechanic

You misunderstand.

The logi behaved properly, the mechanic was not logical to describe as an exploit, except in reverse.
Pilots wanting a free shot at a logi can use this exploit to attack them, despite the fact they only participated in a legitimate action that SHOULD have been covered by the LE rule set.

Expecting a pure logi to somehow attack a target so the game flags them correctly is the exploit.
Karti Aivo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2012-12-11 21:49:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Karti Aivo
Seranova Farreach wrote:
logi do not deserve special consideration at all, they assist a suspect / criminal then they pay the consiquences. END OF STORY

ps. let us not forget the rampant abuse of "neut logi" pre retrebution.



i totally agree on that part, but it seems you really didnt read the Wall of Text well enough. Instead of a "neut logi"-problem this could easy lead to a "neut dps"-problem.

Here's the Money quote what should make it more clear:

Quote:
Another example to make this more clear: I am in a war. There are three wartargets. A Corpmate in a combatship engages all three of them so he is in a limited engagement with all three. I enter the field as a logistics and get shot by two wargets therefore i have only 2 limited engagements. If i now rep my Corpmate i would go suspect because i am not in a limited engagement with the 3rd wartarget.


Or another funny thing you could do to "exploit" that mechanic:

You see a enemy gang in Highsec with Logi support. You get an blank alt in a n00bship and suicide yourself on the combat ships of the enemy, so the Combat ships are in a limited engagement against your rookie-alt. The Logis are not. If the logis now want to rep their combat ships they have to get suspect flagged and therefore can be raped by everyone.
Antodias
Blue Canary
Watch This
#13 - 2012-12-11 23:33:30 UTC
A system designed to make flagging and engagements clearer should not be doing this.

Supporting the extremely handsome OP ~
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#14 - 2012-12-12 00:18:05 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Seranova Farreach wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Logi boats deserve special consideration, the suspect flag should not exist for them this way obviously.

NO. it is there so that neutral logi isnt a problem nor an exploited mechanic

You misunderstand.

The logi behaved properly, the mechanic was not logical to describe as an exploit, except in reverse.
Pilots wanting a free shot at a logi can use this exploit to attack them, despite the fact they only participated in a legitimate action that SHOULD have been covered by the LE rule set.

Expecting a pure logi to somehow attack a target so the game flags them correctly is the exploit.



i dont. i know how logi used to be like in pvp the rampant "neut logi" repping then jumping gate unable to be engaged like the chickens they were.. i prefer it like this, more consiquence for their actions. like it should be.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#15 - 2012-12-12 00:19:26 UTC
Antodias wrote:
A system designed to make flagging and engagements clearer should not be doing this.

Supporting the extremely handsome OP ~



whats wrogn about it? a logi pilot reps a suspect /crim and they themselves are flagged for helping the suspect/crim? makes sence.. irl dont you get in deep trouble for aiding and abeting a criminal and stuff like that? this is the same thing.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Antodias
Blue Canary
Watch This
#16 - 2012-12-12 00:58:47 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
Antodias wrote:
A system designed to make flagging and engagements clearer should not be doing this.

Supporting the extremely handsome OP ~



whats wrogn about it? a logi pilot reps a suspect /crim and they themselves are flagged for helping the suspect/crim? makes sence.. irl dont you get in deep trouble for aiding and abeting a criminal and stuff like that? this is the same thing.



Except the logi pilot isn't repping a suspect or criminal.

For more details on what magical and seemingly elusive subject we're actually discussing, feel free to read any other post in this thread. The original post would be a good place to start.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#17 - 2012-12-12 01:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Karti Aivo wrote:
Seranova Farreach wrote:
logi do not deserve special consideration at all, they assist a suspect / criminal then they pay the consiquences. END OF STORY

ps. let us not forget the rampant abuse of "neut logi" pre retrebution.



i totally agree on that part, but it seems you really didnt read the Wall of Text well enough. Instead of a "neut logi"-problem this could easy lead to a "neut dps"-problem.

Here's the Money quote what should make it more clear:

Quote:
Another example to make this more clear: I am in a war. There are three wartargets. A Corpmate in a combatship engages all three of them so he is in a limited engagement with all three. I enter the field as a logistics and get shot by two wargets therefore i have only 2 limited engagements. If i now rep my Corpmate i would go suspect because i am not in a limited engagement with the 3rd wartarget.


Or another funny thing you could do to "exploit" that mechanic:

You see a enemy gang in Highsec with Logi support. You get an blank alt in a n00bship and suicide yourself on the combat ships of the enemy, so the Combat ships are in a limited engagement against your rookie-alt. The Logis are not. If the logis now want to rep their combat ships they have to get suspect flagged and therefore can be raped by everyone.


^^ This person does not understand Limited Engagements.... Please go back an re-read the dev blog.

A limited engagement happens when Pilot A attacks a SUSPECT (or Criminal). In both of the cases above, no LE is created, so no Suspect flag will be delivered to the Logistics ship.... In other words, the examples are INCORRECT...

You want to know why Logistics get flagged Suspect when they interfere in an engagement.... it's because neutral logistics is a broken mechanic... It plagued highsec warfare for faaaarrrr to long, and it is 100% WONDERFUL that neutral logistics have a penalty now...

In the specific cases, where you try to rep your buddy, who is attacking a Suspect.. Really, I mean Really... can you get any more pathetically risk adverse??? A suspect can only legally attack back the person who shot them first... SO, that means there is ONE suspect that can deal damage to your Buddy (unless he decides to attack a lot of different suspect simultaneously, in which case he deserves to die!). Do you really need to bring logistics to that fight in the first place?? You're ganging up on a single player, so why don't you man up and actually fight on terms that maybe, just maybe, the suspect can destroy one of your ships before you inevitably destroy him? And if you truly are that risk adverse, then you can still bring a falcon...

Really, all this whining about how awkward it is to bring neutral logistics into a fight against Suspects is really pathetic, and I have no sympathy for you, and hence I have no desire to support your change...


In truth, I do support a fairly major change to crimewatch to make it more intuitive:

1.) Remove Limited Engagements:
2.) Add a new flag... I'll call it the Samaritan Flag. If you attack a Criminal or Suspect, you gain the Samaritan flag.
3.) When you have a Samaritan flag, ALL criminals and Suspects can legally shoot you.
4.) If you assist a person with a Samaritan flag, you gain a Samaritan flag.
5.) Order of precedence is Criminal > Suspect > Samaritan... (i.e. if you are a Samaritan and rep a Suspect, you go Suspect)
6.) Finally, if you assist a neutral with a PvP & Weapons flag that does not have a Criminal, Suspect, or Samaritan Flag, you are flagged as a Suspect unless the person they are engaging can legally shoot you.

Possible addendum, if you are a neutral, and attack a Samaritan, you gain a Criminal Flag (could be a Suspect flag instead, but a criminal flag makes it a little safer and intuitive for the Samaritans).

Boom... Now highsec battles get very interesting.... Flags are all universal, and make sense.... Granted... Suspects will likely gang up on Samaritans as much as Samaritans gang up on Suspects... making for some interesting times...
Karti Aivo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2012-12-12 09:29:57 UTC

^^ This person does not understand Limited Engagements.... Please go back an re-read the dev blog.

A limited engagement happens when Pilot A attacks a SUSPECT (or Criminal). In both of the cases above, no LE is created, so no Suspect flag will be delivered to the Logistics ship.... In other words, the examples are INCORRECT...

You want to know why Logistics get flagged Suspect when they interfere in an engagement.... it's because neutral logistics is a broken mechanic... It plagued highsec warfare for faaaarrrr to long, and it is 100% WONDERFUL that neutral logistics have a penalty now...
[/quote]


Even if i'm wrong about the mechanic during a wardec its still unlogical that as a logi i have to whore on every suspect before repping my non-suspected friends (specially in Lowsec).
Raphael Celestine
Celestine Inc.
#19 - 2012-12-12 11:37:24 UTC
Karti Aivo wrote:
A solution what would make sense for this would be that a limited engagement is created between the Suspect and the Assisting Logistics Pilot.

The whole point of Limited Engagements is that they aren't inherited. If a logi pilot can gain a LE by repping someone who is fighting a suspect, then someone else can gain a LE by repping the logi and so on ad infinitum. That leads to exactly the kind of tangled webs of player-to-player flags that Crimewatch 2.0 is intended to eliminate.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#20 - 2012-12-12 15:13:41 UTC
It's not about 'make neutral reps viable' again. It's about the suspect flag logistics gain in certain situations.
Trust me, noone wants neutral reps back.
Just an example:

Bounty/Killmail hunters in HighSec found a juicy target.
They probe him down, land on grid, activate killrights. Target goes suspect and can be tackled now.
However, let's say you are just 2 or 3 guys and the target is definately able to put up a good fight.
So you decide to bring a logi to the fight so your dps ship won't die.
Now your Logi has to agress the suspect first before it may repair his buddy without getting suspect-flagged himself.

Next example:

Lowsec. You are a small gang with Logistical support and at a gate a battle ensues. If you rep your buddies now you get suspect flagged, making you a viable target for every bit of reinforcement your enemies warp onto grid. They weren't in battle before, and can now agress your logi ships without getting suspect flagged themself nor getting sentry aggro.


Next example:

You're doing gatecamp shenanigans in highsec where you have an instalocking frigate as inital tackle. Suspect / Killright / Criminal / Whatever you may engage jumps through, your frig lands tackle and gets under heavy pressure by the enemy. If you rep your tackle, your logi goes suspect.



So basically, what *SHOULD* be changed is:
If the player you assist is in a limited engagement with a LEGAL TARGET of you, you should NOT get suspect flagged.
If the player you assist is in a limited engagement with a ILLEGAL TARGET of you, you should get suspect flagged.
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