Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Hello dear Crimewatch developers!

First off in general i really like the new crimewatch system.
Lowsec PVP is a lot quicker now (unless u shoot pods) because you dont have to sit out this annoying Timers anymore and Tradehubs are filled with dead "criminals" being podded to nirvana.

But the new Crimewatch system is a curse for Logistics pilots. Or at least for Logistics Pilots who don't use any offensive Modules. And this flaw lays in the "Limited Engagement" mechanic. I experienced that myself as me and a corp mate lost two augorors due to this weird mechanic. I petitioned the loss and the response was the Following:



From a logical Point of View this answer makes sense - but not from the Point of View of the Crimewatch 2.0 so i quickly became another response on the same petition:



If you are a Logistics Pilot without any offensive Module you are totally screwed when u want to assist someone shooting a Suspect.

A solution what would make sense for this would be that a limited engagement is created between the Suspect and the Assisting Logistics Pilot. It seems to fix this issue the perfect solution would be to let Logi's / Assists appear on Killmails (a long demanded thing by lots of players :P) so that a limited engagement between the suspect and the Logi is created. Otherwise u would still punish "Full Logi" people.

Because i can see the same issue causing problems in Lowsec aswell where all the logis would have to go suspect if they assist some friends shooting suspects and therefore could be attacked by 3rd Partys without causing a sec hit for the 3rd Party.

If Assisting would somehow be treated as "agressive" act aswell to let you appear on killmails the Enemy of the ones who are assisted by the Logi's could still shoot the Logi without a problem but 3rd Party's still would have to take at least a sec hit and a suspect flag aswell if they decide to agress.

Another example to make this more clear: I am in a war. There are three wartargets. A Corpmate in a combatship engages all three of them so he is in a limited engagement with all three. I enter the field as a logistics and get shot by two wargets therefore i have only 2 limited engagements. If i now rep my Corpmate i would go suspect because i am not in a limited engagement with the 3rd wartarget.


Yours

Karti

Great points, couldnt agree more!!

For the record, I approve OP's quotes.

I must confess. I'm sick of fitting target painters or points to my logis to get in on the sexy time.

Give me free killmails for doing my job!

i agree.. sort of like you assisted player A to kill player B so you should be on the killmail for helping them

You misunderstand.

The logi behaved properly, the mechanic was not logical to describe as an exploit, except in reverse.
Pilots wanting a free shot at a logi can use this exploit to attack them, despite the fact they only participated in a legitimate action that SHOULD have been covered by the LE rule set.

Expecting a pure logi to somehow attack a target so the game flags them correctly is the exploit.

A system designed to make flagging and engagements clearer should not be doing this.

Supporting the extremely handsome OP ~

whats wrogn about it? a logi pilot reps a suspect /crim and they themselves are flagged for helping the suspect/crim? makes sence.. irl dont you get in deep trouble for aiding and abeting a criminal and stuff like that? this is the same thing.

^^ This person does not understand Limited Engagements.... Please go back an re-read the dev blog.

A limited engagement happens when Pilot A attacks a SUSPECT (or Criminal). In both of the cases above, no LE is created, so no Suspect flag will be delivered to the Logistics ship.... In other words, the examples are INCORRECT...

You want to know why Logistics get flagged Suspect when they interfere in an engagement.... it's because neutral logistics is a broken mechanic... It plagued highsec warfare for faaaarrrr to long, and it is 100% WONDERFUL that neutral logistics have a penalty now...

In the specific cases, where you try to rep your buddy, who is attacking a Suspect.. Really, I mean Really... can you get any more pathetically risk adverse??? A suspect can only legally attack back the person who shot them first... SO, that means there is ONE suspect that can deal damage to your Buddy (unless he decides to attack a lot of different suspect simultaneously, in which case he deserves to die!). Do you really need to bring logistics to that fight in the first place?? You're ganging up on a single player, so why don't you man up and actually fight on terms that maybe, just maybe, the suspect can destroy one of your ships before you inevitably destroy him? And if you truly are that risk adverse, then you can still bring a falcon...

Really, all this whining about how awkward it is to bring neutral logistics into a fight against Suspects is really pathetic, and I have no sympathy for you, and hence I have no desire to support your change...


In truth, I do support a fairly major change to crimewatch to make it more intuitive:

1.) Remove Limited Engagements:
2.) Add a new flag... I'll call it the Samaritan Flag. If you attack a Criminal or Suspect, you gain the Samaritan flag.
3.) When you have a Samaritan flag, ALL criminals and Suspects can legally shoot you.
4.) If you assist a person with a Samaritan flag, you gain a Samaritan flag.
5.) Order of precedence is Criminal > Suspect > Samaritan... (i.e. if you are a Samaritan and rep a Suspect, you go Suspect)
6.) Finally, if you assist a neutral with a PvP & Weapons flag that does not have a Criminal, Suspect, or Samaritan Flag, you are flagged as a Suspect unless the person they are engaging can legally shoot you.

Possible addendum, if you are a neutral, and attack a Samaritan, you gain a Criminal Flag (could be a Suspect flag instead, but a criminal flag makes it a little safer and intuitive for the Samaritans).

Boom... Now highsec battles get very interesting.... Flags are all universal, and make sense.... Granted... Suspects will likely gang up on Samaritans as much as Samaritans gang up on Suspects... making for some interesting times...

The whole point of Limited Engagements is that they aren't inherited. If a logi pilot can gain a LE by repping someone who is fighting a suspect, then someone else can gain a LE by repping the logi and so on ad infinitum. That leads to exactly the kind of tangled webs of player-to-player flags that Crimewatch 2.0 is intended to eliminate.