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PVE, Drones, The new AI and You

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Mund Richard
#321 - 2012-12-11 04:13:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Now, you're welcome to try the things suggested to you (Baltec's is a good one) or continue to complain. The ball's in your court how you proceed. But the AI has been set up this way for a few reasons, not the least of which was the exasperant isk generation from people soloing level 4s in high sec. The original solution was to move them out of high sec altogether. You should be relieved that lvl4s stayed in high sec, and counting your fortunes instead of whining about the compromise that was made instead to keep them in high sec and simultaneously reduce the isk generation that was taking place.

Best solution: start running level 4s in small fleets. Me and a mate have been doing it in pairs. Not gonna give you the details, because you're obviously not actually willing to try anything different, but needless to say we have worked out how to do it with little effort every time, just two of us. No proteus, no tengu, not even any T2. And we still use drones which with our method, hardly ever even take aggro.

As I've said before, I don't need to try anything, solved my problems just fine.

Baltec's one is indeed good, except that it ain't something new players can get quickly into. Plus, loosing such a ship so early in your career would be brutal I'd imagine. Don't fly what you cannot afford to loose, ect...
And I'd like to think level fours are the last stepping stone you take, before going onwards to L5 in groups, WH, or low/nullsec.
At least they used to be.

"exasperant isk generation from people soloing level 4s in high sec" - funny enough, I make a lot more isk a lot easier now. Ofc not going level 4s in hisec. Hence I never quite saw the problem with them, but ah well.

Did CCP really consider moving out L4s out of hisec? Now that is new to me. Got any links?

Small fleet L4:
Might be good, not sure if it's worth the time, totally sure it's not worth my time, alone or in fleet.

T1 ships with drones in small fleet that works?
Too bad you won't give any details :(
Coincidentally if that setup is TWO dominixes, it near-perfectly solves any annoying NPC EWAR as well, as they tend to focus fire (which makes sense), you can assign sentries to the other player, and then he will have the firepower of 10.
Add to that a remote repair in the highs, 5 guns, a few drone damage amplifiers, and you have a mean spider domi pakage.
Although, once you have it down well, you could just move on to WH, up to C5 as well if you get a few friends more.


But if it's something else I'm curious nontheless, I bet something nice and concrete could help some in this thread quite a bit more than just an idea of using jammers on an unbonused hull.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#322 - 2012-12-11 04:20:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Mund Richard wrote:
Plus, loosing such a ship so early in your career would be brutal I'd imagine.


Maybe if you tightened it first...


Oh, you meant "losing". Bounty increased for bad spelling.

FYI, it's still not as high as mine Blink

Also, I'll give you a hint, and it's not two Domis. The new AI prefers to go after ships of the same size, so when a solo BS launches drones, the AI frigates will prefer them over the BS. Guess what you can run with having two ships in the fleet?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#323 - 2012-12-11 04:20:22 UTC
New players shouldnt be trying to do lvl 4s and getting into a t3 is as long as getting into a battleship.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#324 - 2012-12-11 04:27:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
...getting into a t3 is as long as getting into a battleship.

While getting good performance out of each would take similar amounts of time, going strain from nothing to minimum BS and relevant mods seems it would take less time. Especially since the BS minimal plan doesn't require a single lvl 5 skill. The proteus requires several.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#325 - 2012-12-11 08:07:16 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Thanks. While you're at it.... I don't remember anyone asking for your opinion, either, yet you felt free to express it. Why should the same standards not apply to everyone


It's you not me who kept talking down people on the official *feedback* thread. *Their* opinion was asked and you - certainly not a developer - kept downplaying what they said and so on.
This is also clearly a *feedback* thread, where once again people express their concerns to the developer (who else can look at drones AI?) and you once again go with the "lol hharden up" / "lol for me it's so easy" comments.

They are neither needed nor - after so much negativity of yours against the other players - not welcome.


Remiel Pollard wrote:

Honestly, it would be nice to see this thread get locked, because it's just not going anywhere and people obviously just don't like change or trying new things. You aren't going to learn anything, you don't really want to learn anything, you just want it to be easy again.


Yes let's lock whatever is not a yes man product.
It's almost like forums existed to also discuss controversial stuff and had rules that I don't see being broken to justify a lock.

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Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#326 - 2012-12-11 08:09:03 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
...getting into a t3 is as long as getting into a battleship.

While getting good performance out of each would take similar amounts of time, going strain from nothing to minimum BS and relevant mods seems it would take less time. Especially since the BS minimal plan doesn't require a single lvl 5 skill. The proteus requires several.


There's also a cost factor. You can fit a T1 BS for a few hundred million. A T3, not so much and if you're locked into level 3s, you can pretty much write that T3 off any time soon.

However, since CCP have said that the full room aggro is a bug, this can hopefully go to its deathbed (quietly and quickly).

Since it's a bug it rather renders my request for a video moot since it wont last, however it would still be amusing to see just how fast a T1 BS dies in that mission.


And finally, @Remiel Pollard. Your 'solutions' are comedy gold.

ECM isn't an option when you cant lock.
SeBos aren't an option when the incoming DPS can already melt a HUGE tank - the DPS in there is higher than the angel bonus room. Excessive for a first room in a regular mission I think most will agree.
And my favorite one that is worth repeating - train a skill which has NOTHING to do with the problem at hand. Ingenious. You may as well have said to train mining skills.


The overall thing about advice is, if you've not done it you should probably not be so condescending to people who are struggling with the issue at hand. This is especially the case when your suggestions would have no impact on the issue whatsoever, yet you still manage to post it in a way which implies somehow the other people are idiots.

Pontificating dodgy/plainly useless advice whilst implying other people are scrubs is foolish and also a contributing factor as to why people respond badly to you.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#327 - 2012-12-11 08:13:31 UTC
I have yet to see a fit from any of these pros that find the new AI so easy.
Please also detail which missions you used them in.

A You Tube video of you running one of the missions would also be a nice touch.
Otherwise, your words are utterly meaningless.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#328 - 2012-12-11 08:15:45 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:


Small fleet L4:
Might be good, not sure if it's worth the time, totally sure it's not worth my time, alone or in fleet.



No, it's not good. Why? Because at this point the ISK / hour drops towards mining ISK / hour. That is an AFK-ish profession that does not even require to grind any standings or to train a fraction of the combat skills / tiers of hulls skills etc.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#329 - 2012-12-11 08:18:14 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have yet to see a fit from any of these pros that find the new AI so easy.
Please also detail which missions you used them in.

A You Tube video of you running one of the missions would also be a nice touch.
Otherwise, your words are utterly meaningless.


Yes a solo made, simple full aggro room mission with the standard 6 damps elite NPCs, done in Maelstrom (a quite used mission boat), just to show how it's done.

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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#330 - 2012-12-11 08:24:57 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have yet to see a fit from any of these pros that find the new AI so easy.
Please also detail which missions you used them in.

A You Tube video of you running one of the missions would also be a nice touch.
Otherwise, your words are utterly meaningless.


Yes a solo made, simple full aggro room mission with the standard 6 damps elite NPCs, done in Maelstrom (a quite used mission boat), just to show how it's done.


I would also like to see an Ishtar in the WC room, say the Angel 2nd room.
I personally have flown the Ishtar with some success in some of the easier L4's, like Damsel in Distress, and Mordus Headhunters Part 1. But only because I tested like mad this disastrous AI on Duality and figured out all the tricks.

But there is no way I am going near the WC missions, The Assault series, or the Blockade Series.

And the best part that no one has even mentioned: The Epic Arcs.
I soloed the Gallente version some months ago in an Ishtar, and it damn near killed me with stress.

I can't even fathom doing it now, with any ship.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#331 - 2012-12-11 08:25:31 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have yet to see a fit from any of these pros that find the new AI so easy.


Already gave you plenty of ships, its up to you to fit them correctly.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#332 - 2012-12-11 08:27:16 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have yet to see a fit from any of these pros that find the new AI so easy.
Please also detail which missions you used them in.

A You Tube video of you running one of the missions would also be a nice touch.
Otherwise, your words are utterly meaningless.


Yes a solo made, simple full aggro room mission with the standard 6 damps elite NPCs, done in Maelstrom (a quite used mission boat), just to show how it's done.


In fact, I would like to start a thread requesting THE DEV's make a video showing it done, but besides they will simply do it in dev god-boat, and of course, the ISD would shut down the thread as soon as it went up.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#333 - 2012-12-11 08:28:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I have yet to see a fit from any of these pros that find the new AI so easy.


Already gave you plenty of ships, its up to you to fit them correctly.


Of course you have.
Like I said, your words are meaningless.

You like to grief as much on these forums as you like to grief in Uedama.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#334 - 2012-12-11 08:33:58 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:


Small fleet L4:
Might be good, not sure if it's worth the time, totally sure it's not worth my time, alone or in fleet.



No, it's not good. Why? Because at this point the ISK / hour drops towards mining ISK / hour. That is an AFK-ish profession that does not even require to grind any standings or to train a fraction of the combat skills / tiers of hulls skills etc.


If you're only in it for the ISK, then you're playing the wrong game.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#335 - 2012-12-11 08:39:26 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Herp derp derp I'm an idiot


Oh just give it rest and troll somewhere else. Not like you have any credibility when you talk about bring small guns to L4s as a 'solution'.

So CCP, when will we hear from you ? Will your 'solution' be to just put your head in the sand and go 'NANANANANANANA I can't hear my paying customers complain so all is fine in fairyland'.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#336 - 2012-12-11 08:39:46 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Of course you have.
Like I said, your words are meaningless.

You like to grief as much on these forums as you like to grief in Uedama.


You have some evidence of griefing going on in Uedama?
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#337 - 2012-12-11 08:40:32 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


It's you not me who kept talking down people on the official *feedback* thread. *Their* opinion was asked and you - certainly not a developer - kept downplaying what they said and so on.
This is also clearly a *feedback* thread, where once again people express their concerns to the developer (who else can look at drones AI?) and you once again go with the "lol hharden up" / "lol for me it's so easy" comments.

They are neither needed nor - after so much negativity of yours against the other players - not welcome.



Lol. Yeah, nobody likes criticism, I get it. The difference between people who are willing to learn and those who aren't (like yourself) is that people who are willing to learn will consider criticism and check it for credibility before rejecting it outright.

Additionally, this being a second feedback thread is a reason in itself to have it locked. Why do we need two? You said it yourself, there's a feedback thread in existence.

If you don't like what I have to say, you have the option to ignore it as much as I have the right to say it, so just because you don't like my opinion doesn't mean I can't, or won't, offer it. Those that have done nothing but whine have received my ridicule as it is warranted, such as yourself. Those that have demonstrated a genuine desire to adapt have received genuine assistance, and found it useful. So don't tell me that my ideas, or Baltec's, are wrong just because it means changing a little, or because you're too lazy to try it, because that desire for everything to remain the same, stagnant and old, is only a sign that this shake up was sorely needed.

I would suggest you just start dealing with it, or unsub, because I really doubt they're doing anything to the AI except weeding out genuine bugs, and as far as I can tell, the only known bug is one that makes the AI even easier than it should be, so good luck when they fix that.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#338 - 2012-12-11 08:47:43 UTC  |  Edited by: DeBingJos
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:


Small fleet L4:
Might be good, not sure if it's worth the time, totally sure it's not worth my time, alone or in fleet.



No, it's not good. Why? Because at this point the ISK / hour drops towards mining ISK / hour. That is an AFK-ish profession that does not even require to grind any standings or to train a fraction of the combat skills / tiers of hulls skills etc.


If you're only in it for the ISK, then you're playing the wrong game.


Some people actually like(d) doing missions. We all have to make isk somehow. The risk-reward ratio of Lv4's right now is totally wrong.

Mining is more profitable for much less risk. This is not about you hating mission runners, it's about a game mechanic that is broken. The fun factor of missions was not very high before the patch, now it is near 0. If they wanted to nerf mission income they could have just decreased rat bounties. Reducing the fun of a large part of your subscriber base is not very smart imo.

Note: Contrary to what most people claim, lv4's are hardly the most profitable highsec pve content. As always, this change will hit new players more than the veterans. Scaring new players from the game is not a good business strategy.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#339 - 2012-12-11 08:50:57 UTC
I haven't deleted any posts in this thread, instead I would ask you all to remember that there are rules that should be followed when posting on these forums.

Forum Rules wrote:


4. Be respectful of others at all times.

The purpose of the forum is to provide a platform for the exchange of ideas. Occasionally, there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Be courteous when disagreeing with others. It is possible to disagree without being insulting.


5. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a long-winded, redundant post, often filled with angry, non-constructive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and helpful in the development of the game, but rants are disruptive and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise, clear manner and avoid going off on rambling tangents.


6. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another. Text of this nature is not beneficial to the community spirit and will not be tolerated. Corporation, faction and alliance members and other players are cautioned to avoid allowing “in character” disputes from becoming "out of character" personal attacks. The game is designed for role-playing and/or portraying a role and it is sometimes easy for tempers to flare when the lines between the virtual world and the real world are crossed. Please keep in-game disputes in the game and off the forum unless it is clearly a mutual, in-character exchange.


7. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is the word used to describe a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting the players. Posts of this nature are disruptive and do not contribute to the sense of community we want for our forums.





I would ask you all to stay on topic and avoid personal attacks and troll posting. This is a good discussion thread and it would be beneficial to us all for it to stay within the rules - ISD Type40.

[b]ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#340 - 2012-12-11 09:19:12 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mund Richard wrote:


Small fleet L4:
Might be good, not sure if it's worth the time, totally sure it's not worth my time, alone or in fleet.



No, it's not good. Why? Because at this point the ISK / hour drops towards mining ISK / hour. That is an AFK-ish profession that does not even require to grind any standings or to train a fraction of the combat skills / tiers of hulls skills etc.


If you're only in it for the ISK, then you're playing the wrong game.


Some people actually like(d) doing missions. We all have to make isk somehow. The risk-reward ratio of Lv4's right now is totally wrong.

Mining is more profitable for much less risk. This is not about you hating mission runners, it's about a game mechanic that is broken. The fun factor of missions was not very high before the patch, now it is near 0. If they wanted to nerf mission income they could have just decreased rat bounties. Reducing the fun of a large part of your subscriber base is not very smart imo.

Note: Contrary to what most people claim, lv4's are hardly the most profitable highsec pve content. As always, this change will hit new players more than the veterans. Scaring new players from the game is not a good business strategy.


I don't hate anyone, and I've got nothing against mission runners, or even miners. I dabble in both professions... I'm a bit of a dallier when it comes to this game. What I have a problem with, however, is people complaining about what they perceive to be a problem when the fact is everything is working as intended and people just don't like change.

I don't hate those people, either. But I laugh at their tears frequently.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104