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PVE, Drones, The new AI and You

First post
Author
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#281 - 2012-12-10 21:08:00 UTC
i will just say that i love the drones changes and my golem barely notices the changes when running misions lvl 4, in fact now i make more isk per hour using salvage drones while running the mission.

and i believe it would be nice if this changes promote running missions in groups.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2012-12-10 21:09:39 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Did you train your new sensor compensation skills before you ran the assault?

+1 for you for finding me new (possibly useful) skill.
however people are right: it won't safe you from damp from 10 NPC ships

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#283 - 2012-12-10 21:10:39 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
and i believe it would be nice if this changes promote running missions in groups.


Missions should remain soloable, IMHO. If people want to group, that's what Incursions are for. Leave missions for those who don't have the time or desire to fleet up. Most successful MMOs have a very clear "soloable content" and "group content" split. And MMOs without either one tend to croak pretty fast.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#284 - 2012-12-10 21:15:38 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
You can fly missions like World's Collide completely solo and with the right boat it's stupidly easy. IMHO, it's still harder than "The Assault" namely because you're up against two different kinds of enemy (different damage, different resists). You don't have to kill everything, of course, but it's still easy to do it solo.

you i know. i did some missions for fun these days. Blaster Hyperion.

Remiel Pollard wrote:

All the missions are completely predictable. Now, they're unpredictable again. But I'll BET you every little isky I have that once you get used to them, they'll become predictable again.

exactly. predictable and boring as previous. No fun added.

Remiel Pollard wrote:

But if you tried going up against the same size fleets of players as you do solo v. NPCs on these missions, you wouldn't stand a chance.

lol... you'r funny child Lol
you really say someone will survive (or even win) in battleship in the middle of nowhere attacking fleet of 10-20 assorted ships with like 50% of battleships???? Lol

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#285 - 2012-12-10 21:17:42 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
It is pretty sad when a member of the CSM who supposedly represents high sec claimed there is no defect in the AI that people can use to still run drone missions. When that loophole is closed it is lights out for us.

Pretty much indicates that it is completely over for high sec mission runners.


Precision missiles are holding strong atm. 3 shotting elite frigs is fine by me.


Sorry, you are correct.

I should have stated it is over for any mission runner who relies on drones.
Tengu pilots of course can keep rocking and rolling.


FWIW, I was actually referring to precision cruises Shocked
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#286 - 2012-12-10 21:19:48 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Did you train your new sensor compensation skills before you ran the assault?

+1 for you for finding me new (possibly useful) skill.
however people are right: it won't safe you from damp from 10 NPC ships

If this is the assault against serpentis I'm not sure how those would help. Sensor strength doesn't counter damps unless I've been misinformed.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#287 - 2012-12-10 21:23:52 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Well theres a blaster protius. Smaller sig, faster, great damage and can tank. Slap on an afterburner and you shouldn't have too many issues. Or go vindicator and just nuke everything.


Yeah, because everyone can easily afford multi-billion ISK ships, and has skills needed to make use of them (like Vindi). How about you try doing L4s with imperfect (seriously imperfect, bordering on weak) skills and using a T1 battleship. Especially a T1 Gallente battleship (which limits your choice to Mega, Domi and Hype). What's that? Adapt by cross-training for another 2 months? Yeah, I'll get right on that, says the new player clicking "unsubscribe" button.

I do use a hyperion.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#288 - 2012-12-10 21:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
baltec1 wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Well theres a blaster protius. Smaller sig, faster, great damage and can tank. Slap on an afterburner and you shouldn't have too many issues. Or go vindicator and just nuke everything.


Yeah, because everyone can easily afford multi-billion ISK ships, and has skills needed to make use of them (like Vindi). How about you try doing L4s with imperfect (seriously imperfect, bordering on weak) skills and using a T1 battleship. Especially a T1 Gallente battleship (which limits your choice to Mega, Domi and Hype). What's that? Adapt by cross-training for another 2 months? Yeah, I'll get right on that, says the new player clicking "unsubscribe" button.

I do use a hyperion.


So? Do like the lady asks, and post a video of you soloing that Serpentis mission, today, in your Hyperion. We'd all love to see it. And remember to use your moderate-low SP character, not one with perfect Vs across the board.

Actually, you know what, forget it. I found the ignore button.
Skorpynekomimi
#289 - 2012-12-10 21:37:04 UTC
Specialisation is for insects. I have other ways of making ISK; L4 missions are simply an easy faucet of ISK, salvage, trade goods, and minerals.
That said, I fly an active-tanked gunboat Mael. My drone bay is small. Should I ditch the pricy T2 drones and just go with cheap T1s I can just produce myself?

I just specced an alt into drone boats. Domi sentry drone boat still valid tactic? Or should she just rep/cap transfer my Mael?

Economic PVP

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#290 - 2012-12-10 21:45:47 UTC
Mokanor Lenak wrote:
And not everyone wants to have to multi-box, or leeching on friends just to get a mission done.


One person's "leeching" is another person's "teamwork". If you bring friends along to make your missions easier (and faster) is that really leeching?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#291 - 2012-12-10 22:06:20 UTC
Jame Jarl wrote:

So? Do like the lady asks, and post a video of you soloing that Serpentis mission, today, in your Hyperion. We'd all love to see it. And remember to use your moderate-low SP character, not one with perfect Vs across the board.

Actually, you know what, forget it. I found the ignore button.

Yep ignore anyone who disagrees with you and posts answers to problems you face.

For the people who are willing to learn I would also advise a blaster rokh or a auto maelstrom.
Mund Richard
#292 - 2012-12-10 22:43:40 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
So? Do like the lady asks, and post a video of you soloing that Serpentis mission, today, in your Hyperion. We'd all love to see it. And remember to use your moderate-low SP character, not one with perfect Vs across the board.
INB4 Deadly Duo Roll

It's relatively easy to find a 6 hour timer mission that's still fairly easily doable, or if you do some creative workarounds.
Now Assault, I'm more curious about.
Bet it can be done if the frigs don't jam you too soon.
Skorpynekomimi wrote:
Specialisation is for insects. I have other ways of making ISK; L4 missions are simply an easy faucet of ISK, salvage, trade goods, and minerals.
That said, I fly an active-tanked gunboat Mael. My drone bay is small. Should I ditch the pricy T2 drones and just go with cheap T1s I can just produce myself?

I just specced an alt into drone boats. Domi sentry drone boat still valid tactic? Or should she just rep/cap transfer my Mael?

I find the insect comment ...interesting.

As long as the CCP "approved" glitch doesn't get fixed, a mix of T1 and T2 is the way to go: First unleash T1s until they die, and the next flight won't get touched at all.
Or so I've heard, I'm using Garde IIs pretty much exclusively on my droneboat.

Domi sentry tactic is something I used since the patch almost as well as I have before, but with my own twist on it.
See for yourself, if your flavour doesn't work, change it.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#293 - 2012-12-10 22:48:37 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Now Assault, I'm more curious about.
Bet it can be done if the frigs don't jam you too soon.


It can be, but it is a faff. Warp in, primary ANYTHING which can scram, ignore everything else because whole room aggros anyway. Get them locked and alpha'd before the room properly wakes up. Wehn damped to death you can warp out, rinse & repeat. I don't think anyone expected warping in and out as any sort of realistic EWAR counter.

It's lethal the first time you try it not knowing its so dangerous though.



Really its just the perfect storm of drone hate, room aggro and mad EWAR. Without all three in play at once, it's far more managable.
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#294 - 2012-12-10 22:51:08 UTC
Still waiting for CCP to comment.
Mund Richard
#295 - 2012-12-10 23:24:59 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
It's lethal the first time you try it not knowing its so dangerous though.
Really its just the perfect storm of drone hate, room aggro and mad EWAR. Without all three in play at once, it's far more managable.

Well, I'm fairly convinced that the first room full agro alone there is more lethal than any other L4 I ran.

In fact, I always used the first room to test any tank setup I had, and was put off by how easy the rest is to tank in comparison. Cry
Should be the other way around, rooms becoming rougher, and not boring.

Also, it's the mission where I learned that autofire sentries are not the best combo with heavy damp, when the trigger leading to extra battleships needs only to be scratched and not killed.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#296 - 2012-12-11 00:19:57 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:


We are agreed then, the AI change failed miserably! Big smile After all, wasn't the whole point of it to make missions less boring and predictable?



Why do people insist on putting words in my mouth? We are not agreed. Why I said directly translates to "adapt or quit".

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#297 - 2012-12-11 00:23:46 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Did you train your new sensor compensation skills before you ran the assault?

+1 for you for finding me new (possibly useful) skill.
however people are right: it won't safe you from damp from 10 NPC ships

If this is the assault against serpentis I'm not sure how those would help. Sensor strength doesn't counter damps unless I've been misinformed.


Not on it's own, no. But when used in conjunction with sensor boosters and/or amplifiers, you should be able to counter it sufficiently.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Mund Richard
#298 - 2012-12-11 00:28:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mund Richard
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Did you train your new sensor compensation skills before you ran the assault?

Not on it's own, no. But when used in conjunction with
You do realise the sensor compensation skill has 0.0% effect on dampeners I hope, and such your argument would be more valid without the new skills than with it.

edit:
oh wait, I've already told you so once already in this very same thread.

"We want PvE activities to require active participation and mirror PvP more closely." Stacking penalty for NPC EWAR then? Lock range under 9km from over 100 in a BS is not fun. Nor is two NPC web drones making me crawl 10m/s. PvP SW-900 x5: 75m/s.

Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#299 - 2012-12-11 00:35:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:


We are agreed then, the AI change failed miserably! Big smile After all, wasn't the whole point of it to make missions less boring and predictable?



Why do people insist on putting words in my mouth? We are not agreed. Why I said directly translates to "adapt or quit".


No, what you said was that old missions were predictable. Current missions are unpredictable. But once you get used to them, they will be predictable as well. Which means, the AI change did nothing. The missions were predictable before, and they will be predictable again, just as soon as people adapt. Net result = predictable missioning, meaning AI change failed to effect any change.

And that's one of the key complaints with this AI switch. It didn't do anything GOOD. It did not improve the quality of the experience, or made it more challenging (aside from full room aggro, which is likely a bug). It is simply the question of adapting. Which for most people doesn't even involve changing their playstyle, but rather simply cross-training into a Tengu. And once adaptation period is over, things return to the status quo, meaning the AI switch accomplished nothing constructive.

A better alternative would have been drastic change to both the AI and the PvE mechanics. That is, missions would no longer pit your ship against 40 enemies. And combat would be challenging based on things that would function similar to PvP: worrying about scrambling the other guy, webbing him, watching your and his transversal, dealing with cap and cap warfare, etc., etc. That is, you'd approach each mission the same way you'd approach a PvP duel. Which would do wonders for both competence of carebears in PvP (by becoming competent PvEers, they would also become semi-cometent PvPers, instead of being utterly clueless like now) and their willingness to engage in PvP later. And with this change, it would be 100% impossible to do a mission AFK, or semi-AFK. In fact, anything but a full 100% presence at the keyboard should get you killed. But the reward would be in line with the risk. Make things interesting. That's a change I could stand behind. Current version? Sloppy and pointless.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#300 - 2012-12-11 01:13:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:


We are agreed then, the AI change failed miserably! Big smile After all, wasn't the whole point of it to make missions less boring and predictable?



Why do people insist on putting words in my mouth? We are not agreed. Why I said directly translates to "adapt or quit".


No, what you said was that old missions were predictable. Current missions are unpredictable. But once you get used to them, they will be predictable as well. Which means, the AI change did nothing. The missions were predictable before, and they will be predictable again, just as soon as people adapt. Net result = predictable missioning, meaning AI change failed to effect any change.


Why is the mission's predictability the only factor for change? Just because it is predictable, does mean it is easy. You are still putting words in my mouth by asserting what it was that I meant, but adapting to a mission is what makes it predictable, because missioning was meant to be a grind, not unlike mining.

The AI made missions more interesting - even if they become predictable, they can still be interesting. Driving the Nurburgring is predictable, but it's still very interesting as well. Missions now require you to pay attention, for example, which you should have been doing before anyway. The ACTUAL key complaint with this AI switch, as per the hundred posts and dozen or so threads dedicated to it, is "oh noes my drones, make it easy for me to AFK my lvl 4 missions or else I will unsub!" In fact, the majority of complaints are wild and childish tantrums with little in the way of constructive criticism.

The majority of the complaints don't want anything like PvP, and you can find it in the way the state "PvE isn't PvP!!" while stamping their feet. They want easy missions. I bet they'd just love spaceships that hold still for them, don't shoot back, while they blow them up and take their loot and salvage.

Some people are making some valid points. I don't bother countering valid points. Others are just whining. Some are obnoxious enough to put words in other people's mouths and act like they know what was being said in doing so.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104