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[MAJTH] Do you know what I keep hearing?
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Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#41 - 2011-10-19 18:18:29 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:


By following the precepts of St. Junip, later expanded by Heideran VII, we will do exactly this, Brother Blake.


Emperor Heideran VII (may he rest in peace) was a man of peace.

When he was gravely ill, I joined those praying for him.

When he died, I was there at his memorial service.

I still regularly read his Pax Amarria and find it source of great wisdom. Indeed, I own a copy of it that was once touched by his hand.

Let me tell you something. I served the Empire when Heideran VII was on the throne. I know his policies. He is still an inspiration to me. Mr Thessalonia, you're no expert on Heideran VII. And frankly, you and he are incredibly far apart in how you see the future of Empire.

He was a man of peace. But he wasn't a man of capitulation, and he wasn't someone who wanted slavery to end abruptly.

Let me tell you something else, which I think is relevant. The Minmatar don't hate us because we keep slaves. No. They hate us because it is in their nature to hate.

Sure, the likes of Elsebeth Rhiannon may say otherwise, but they are simply trying to be the acceptable face of Minmatar extremism. Don't let them fool you.


Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#42 - 2011-10-19 18:18:36 UTC
Ryven Krennel wrote:
Also, historically, those societies that do not adapt, inevitably fall. The ability to change to meet the demands of a changing world is crucial to survival. Also, removing the key obstacle to non-believers listening willingly to our faith's teachings may very well garner a groundswell of willing converts. Slavery is a societal institution with a spiritual basis that has been abused. We either phase slavery out or eradicate the abuses. The third option is gaining some new overwhelming military superiority and sweep a burning swath of imperial dominance through the cluster.

I am a pragmatist. I have no moral objection to slavery's spiritual purpose. However, the use of vitoxin and general mistreatment I do have issues with.


This is a message I can agree with. Again, Bravo, Captain.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#43 - 2011-10-19 18:23:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiberious Thessalonia
Rodj Blake wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:


By following the precepts of St. Junip, later expanded by Heideran VII, we will do exactly this, Brother Blake.


Emperor Heideran VII (may he rest in peace) was a man of peace.

When he was gravely ill, I joined those praying for him.

When he died, I was there at his memorial service.

I still regularly read his Pax Amarria and find it source of great wisdom. Indeed, I own a copy of it that was once touched by his hand.

Let me tell you something. I served the Empire when Heideran VII was on the throne. I know his policies. He is still an inspiration to me. Mr Thessalonia, you're no expert on Heideran VII. And frankly, you and he are incredibly far apart in how you see the future of Empire.

He was a man of peace. But he wasn't a man of capitulation, and he wasn't someone who wanted slavery to end abruptly.

Let me tell you something else, which I think is relevant. The Minmatar don't hate us because we keep slaves. No. They hate us because it is in their nature to hate.

Sure, the likes of Elsebeth Rhiannon may say otherwise, but they are simply trying to be the acceptable face of Minmatar extremism. Don't let them fool you.




Once again, you misunderstand my message. Once again you put words in my mouth, Brother Blake. I do not want capitulation. I want rejuvenation. I want to bring the light of God to all the people of New Eden, and I want to do it peacefully.

Nor do I want to end slavery tomorrow. That would destroy the empire, and defeat my purpose. A phasing out of the institution over several years, possibly decades, would be acceptable. The empire will take its first steps by ensuring that Holders uphold their sacred responsibilities over their worldly desires.

I will speak in a later talk about the cycle of responsibility between Holder and Serf. I think you will like it.

Lastly, I think you will find that the Matari say that people like me are trying to be the acceptable face of Amarrian extremism. It works both ways, Brother Blake. Perhaps some of us are sincere.
Ryven Krennel
Hopscotch
#44 - 2011-10-19 18:54:54 UTC
I was actually going to add that slave holders neglect thier spiritual responsibility when they abuse thier slaves. Manual labor builds character. Torture, ****, and drugging breed contempt, hatred, and stupor. None of those three contribute to the spiritual growth of the slave.

"Oh, good, we're surrounded.  That makes this easy."
Kalaratiri
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#45 - 2011-10-19 20:40:22 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:

Let me tell you something else, which I think is relevant. The Minmatar don't hate us because we keep slaves. No. They hate us because it is in their nature to hate.


To be fair, most of the Amarrians I dislike, I dislike because they are arrogant assholes..

I have never felt that it is 'in my nature' to hate.

I have never seen any evidence among my people that it is 'in their nature' to hate.

By your argument, I could meet someone for the first time and simply decide to hate them because they are wearing a yellow shirt.

Your people were not wearing yellow shirts, they came with weapons and took my ancestors from their homes by force.

That seems a good enough excuse for hate in my eyes.

She's mad but she's magic, there's no lie in her fire.

This is possibly one of the worst threads in the history of these forums.  - CCP Falcon

I don't remember when last time you said something that wasn't either dumb or absurd. - Diana Kim
Kentt Em'asep
Clone Red Creations
#46 - 2011-10-19 23:59:07 UTC
Kalaratiri wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:

Let me tell you something else, which I think is relevant. The Minmatar don't hate us because we keep slaves. No. They hate us because it is in their nature to hate.


To be fair, most of the Amarrians I dislike, I dislike because they are arrogant assholes..

I have never felt that it is 'in my nature' to hate.

I have never seen any evidence among my people that it is 'in their nature' to hate.

By your argument, I could meet someone for the first time and simply decide to hate them because they are wearing a yellow shirt.

Your people were not wearing yellow shirts, they came with weapons and took my ancestors from their homes by force.

That seems a good enough excuse for hate in my eyes.


I agree with Kalaratiri here. I myself am not a hateful guy. It takes a bit to make me hate someone, or to hold a grudge against them.

Although, if I had came across a Amarr in space or where ever... I might not outright open fire, unless he shoots first. I need a better reason to shoot on sight or waste ammunition then grudges on past events. Even if they are unthinkably terrible. As far as I know, that Amarr had nothing to do with it and was simply born Amarr. All I am pushing for, is for it all to stop. I don't think we really need to kill, kill, kill. Unless it is the only option.

~"That's right. Today, tomorrow, the next day, and the day after that, and the day after that... from here on until forever, every time you look at my avatar - you'll see this scowl."~

~"Forever?"~

~"Yes - forever. It's what I do."~
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#47 - 2011-10-20 07:27:24 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
The Minmatar don't hate us because we keep slaves. No. They hate us because it is in their nature to hate.
Others have answered this, but I'll add something, too.

While in general, I have not found my people to hate more than any other race in New Eden, I did notice that the "hate for Amarr" is more common the more recent they had been enslaved. While certainly not all of them (myself included) do hate the Amarr, the most fearless fighters, the most volunteers for the war seem to come from those recently freed from the Amarr, while those who have had a time in freedom seem to slowly lose interest in what the Amarr are doing, only to be riled up again when they get reminded about the rest of our people in captivity.

So I would say hatred is not in our nature - hatred is what we got taught by the Amarr.

If you really are upset about this "hatred", if you really would like it to end, then it might be time to stop doing what creates it in the first place. Eight hundred years of your efforts have not brought us closer to your god. Eight hundred years of your efforts have moved us and the rest of the cluster farther away than we ever were.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Lhanisa Khinan
Morning Glory Media
#48 - 2011-10-22 05:35:58 UTC
Captain Thessalonia, I was wanting to inquire about this Scholarship program you've created. Would this scholarship be open to outside donations? If it is, I'd like to speak with you further, as I'd be interested in contributing. Thank you, and good luck with your endeavour.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#49 - 2011-10-22 08:12:37 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
The Minmatar don't hate us because we keep slaves. No. They hate us because it is in their nature to hate.
Others have answered this, but I'll add something, too.

If you really are upset about this "hatred", if you really would like it to end, then it might be time to stop doing what creates it in the first place. Eight hundred years of your efforts have not brought us closer to your god. Eight hundred years of your efforts have moved us and the rest of the cluster farther away than we ever were.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


It's not slavery that creates the hatred.

How do I know this?

It's simple really.

If slavery was the root of the problem, we would have seen some beneficial effect from the Empress' generous emancipation of millions of Minmatar slaves. But we haven't. If anything, the anger has intensified.

If slavery was the root of the problem, we would have seen as much anger directed at other pro-slaving groups as at the Amarrians. Indeed, we should have seen more anger thrown their way because they are more likeky to mistreat their slaves than the typical Amarrian. But we haven't. In fact the past has seen pro-Minmatar groups actively encouraging non-Amarrian slavers.

So slavery isn't the reason you hate us. You hate us because you need someone to hate and we're an easy target because we're better than you.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#50 - 2011-10-22 08:48:47 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
If slavery was the root of the problem, we would have seen some beneficial effect from the Empress' generous emancipation of millions of Minmatar slaves. But we haven't. If anything, the anger has intensified.
This of course has nothing to do with the call for a new Reclaiming with the stated goal of bringing the rest of the free Minmatar back that happened at the same time.

Quote:
If slavery was the root of the problem, we would have seen as much anger directed at other pro-slaving groups as at the Amarrians. Indeed, we should have seen more anger thrown their way because they are more likeky to mistreat their slaves than the typical Amarrian. But we haven't.
This also has obviously nothing to do with no other groups having even remotely close the number of our people in captivity as you do.

Sorry, Admiral, but you seem a bit focused on your truth and tend to ignore the whole picture.

We gave you over a hundred years to show kindness, but outside of nice words, we received very little. The first major step towards us happened only after we attacked, at the same time as you invalidated all the possible good impression you had with the goal of the 24th Imperial Crusade. A goal that is not about defense of the Empire against an aggressor, but a goal that is about conquest.

Quote:
So slavery isn't the reason you hate us. You hate us because you need someone to hate and we're an easy target because we're better than you.
I'd agree on the former part. The logic you want to use is "if we turn our slaves into prisoners overnight, there would still be Minmatar who hate us," which I'd agree with. The reason we dislike you is that you keep our people in captivity, no matter whether that's slavery or anything else.

But I fully understand that you must justify completely illogical action before yourself with some rather far-fetched reasons. If you are indeed "better than we are", it would be kind of bad for your personal story if you indeed had been wrong for the last thousand years if not longer, wouldn't it be?

The conservative Amarrians can not admit that they were wrong. It would basically destroy everything they worked for, everything they have created. So they will cling to their personal truth even after reality has long shown them wrong, and will stick to the sinking ship, preferring to drag everyone else down with them over admitting that they were simply wrong.

I sincerely hope that you will not drag down too many of your people with you, because contrary to your firm belief, I do not hate the Amarr. Let's hope that your "love" for the Amarr will not prove more fatal than any hatred there ever was.
Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#51 - 2011-10-22 08:59:49 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
If slavery was the root of the problem, we would have seen some beneficial effect from the Empress' generous emancipation of millions of Minmatar slaves. But we haven't. If anything, the anger has intensified.
This of course has nothing to do with the call for a new Reclaiming with the stated goal of bringing the rest of the free Minmatar back that happened at the same time.

Quote:
If slavery was the root of the problem, we would have seen as much anger directed at other pro-slaving groups as at the Amarrians. Indeed, we should have seen more anger thrown their way because they are more likeky to mistreat their slaves than the typical Amarrian. But we haven't.
This also has obviously nothing to do with no other groups having even remotely close the number of our people in captivity as you do.

Sorry, Admiral, but you seem a bit focused on your truth and tend to ignore the whole picture.

We gave you over a hundred years to show kindness, but outside of nice words, we received very little. The first major step towards us happened only after we attacked, at the same time as you invalidated all the possible good impression you had with the goal of the 24th Imperial Crusade. A goal that is not about defense of the Empire against an aggressor, but a goal that is about conquest.

Quote:
So slavery isn't the reason you hate us. You hate us because you need someone to hate and we're an easy target because we're better than you.
I'd agree on the former part. The logic you want to use is "if we turn our slaves into prisoners overnight, there would still be Minmatar who hate us," which I'd agree with. The reason we dislike you is that you keep our people in captivity, no matter whether that's slavery or anything else.

But I fully understand that you must justify completely illogical action before yourself with some rather far-fetched reasons. If you are indeed "better than we are", it would be kind of bad for your personal story if you indeed had been wrong for the last thousand years if not longer, wouldn't it be?

The conservative Amarrians can not admit that they were wrong. It would basically destroy everything they worked for, everything they have created. So they will cling to their personal truth even after reality has long shown them wrong, and will stick to the sinking ship, preferring to drag everyone else down with them over admitting that they were simply wrong.

I sincerely hope that you will not drag down too many of your people with you, because contrary to your firm belief, I do not hate the Amarr. Let's hope that your "love" for the Amarr will not prove more fatal than any hatred there ever was.


Your so quick to point out the reclaiming efforts and bad holders that if those who preformed these actions were ever caught would be punished to the fullest of the law. These are not Council, Crown or Scripture sanctioned actions your pointing at.

The Empire current stance as it stands is to end slavery under the careful hand of her highness and to reclaim new edan through the means of spreading the faith peacefully.

This doesn't mean we won't defend ourselves or our interest and it doesn't mean there won't be any border skirmishes. These are growing pains of peace which doesn't happen over night nor the release of all the slaves.

Stop using illegal activities as an excuse that we want them to happen just because you don't see the lengths we go to to prevent them. If that's the case should we assume you want Cartel slavery because of your apparent silence about that topic?

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#52 - 2011-10-22 10:36:16 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
Stop using illegal activities as an excuse that we want them to happen just because you don't see the lengths we go to to prevent them.
Oh. I was talking about the many Minmatar still in Amarrian captivity and the 24th Imperial Crusade's goal to reclaim the remaining Minmatar. Which of the two is an illegal activity?
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#53 - 2011-10-22 10:53:58 UTC
Lhanisa Khinan wrote:
Captain Thessalonia, I was wanting to inquire about this Scholarship program you've created. Would this scholarship be open to outside donations? If it is, I'd like to speak with you further, as I'd be interested in contributing. Thank you, and good luck with your endeavour.


Captain Khinan, the true thing I would like to inspire here is the knowledge that you, yourself, can set up your own scholarship.

It is within your power to do so.

However, if you would prefer to keep your own name off of it, I would be happy to extend the scholarship in either the number of students it rewards, or the number of years it will run.
Lhanisa Khinan
Morning Glory Media
#54 - 2011-10-22 17:18:26 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Captain Khinan, the true thing I would like to inspire here is the knowledge that you, yourself, can set up your own scholarship.

It is within your power to do so.

However, if you would prefer to keep your own name off of it, I would be happy to extend the scholarship in either the number of students it rewards, or the number of years it will run.


I would leave that to your discretion. I might in the future look into setting up my own scholarship or other fund, but for the moment I see one with a worthy goal I'm capable of contributing towards. Would it be alright if I contact you next time I'm in space, and we can discuss the details?
Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#55 - 2011-10-22 20:33:02 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Kithrus wrote:
Stop using illegal activities as an excuse that we want them to happen just because you don't see the lengths we go to to prevent them.
Oh. I was talking about the many Minmatar still in Amarrian captivity and the 24th Imperial Crusade's goal to reclaim the remaining Minmatar. Which of the two is an illegal activity?


The one you refuse to address properly.

I speak plainly in the hopes or reasoning with you with some semblance of civility. Do likewise or talks brake down for the fifteenth millionth time. Otherwise we have an endless loop of verbal dodge and parry that all amounts to setting the bar for wall making diplomats of the highest order.

I mentioned growing pains I strongly recommend you start reading into that a hell of a lot more or we are back to square one.

Again.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#56 - 2011-10-22 21:18:41 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
I speak plainly in the hopes or reasoning with you with some semblance of civility.
You do? Fascinating.

Let me try to speak plainly, then.

In the post you responded to, I did not mention the continued slave raids even once. You completely derailed the thread for a pet peeve of yours. Please try to address points in the post if you wish to have a civil debate.

Thank you.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#57 - 2011-10-22 21:53:44 UTC
Lhanisa Khinan wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Captain Khinan, the true thing I would like to inspire here is the knowledge that you, yourself, can set up your own scholarship.

It is within your power to do so.

However, if you would prefer to keep your own name off of it, I would be happy to extend the scholarship in either the number of students it rewards, or the number of years it will run.


I would leave that to your discretion. I might in the future look into setting up my own scholarship or other fund, but for the moment I see one with a worthy goal I'm capable of contributing towards. Would it be alright if I contact you next time I'm in space, and we can discuss the details?


Of course you may. I look forward to it.
Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
#58 - 2011-10-24 01:20:43 UTC
With respect, sir, may I ask a question?

Can you summarize for me the Amarrian theology of human depravity?

With Gratitude,
Edaine

Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#59 - 2011-10-24 03:54:31 UTC
Edaine Numenor wrote:
With respect, sir, may I ask a question?

Can you summarize for me the Amarrian theology of human depravity?

With Gratitude,
Edaine



I would love to, but I am not sure what you mean. If you could enlighten me as to what it is you seek?
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#60 - 2011-10-24 08:51:48 UTC
Depravity starts with a rejection of God.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori