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Crime & Punishment

 
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Miner Bumping: Discussion & Questions Thread

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Von Kroll
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#341 - 2012-12-01 01:33:42 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Von Kroll wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Ahvram wrote:


You have plenty of options available, yet you blatently choose not to use them. Plus, most of your claimed 'facts' on bumping & suicide ganking are completely false.

Says a Goon lol. The "Facts" most come from your little forum posts and the bumper blogs. So sad you have ran out of good arguments at this point to defend this pathetic exploit. Again im sure you guys love risk free pvp I mean doing it the right way isnt the goon way after all.


Funny how we've been putting these facts in to practice for years now. There is no right way to PvP. You need to get this idea out of your head, because every action in this game is PvP, even mining & mission running. the only one that has run out of arguments is you, since you keep referring to a valid game mechanic as an emploit what it's not.

Take active measure to defend yourself & stop playing the victim card.

goons keep arguing that it's a valid game mechanic which is stupid. We all know that it is a valid game mechanic (now) but this is about whether that mechanic is flawed and whether it or other mechanics are exploited. The opinion of a lot of people not in goons is that you have abused the bumping and 15minute aggression timer mechanics and thats why there is now discussion about changing one or both of these mechanics. Just as many other things that were valid game mechanics before goons abused them and they had to be changed. I'm hoping miner and freighter bumping or the 15minute aggression timer are things that are changed so that you are no longer allowed to grief people that have much less then you. Other people have a right to play this game and have fun with out goons imposing their will on them just because you have exploited this game so that you have more in game wealth and resources then anybody. This is eve online not goons online.. (as much as you'd like it to be)


I'll have you know that many of the freighter pilots I've helped gank have had much more than me. The 15 minute aggression time was brought in to the game because supercaps weren't dying along with many other people who were escaping death by simply logging out of the game. It wasn't just goons avoiding death by logging out, everyone was doing it.

Saying that something needs to be changed because a few goons are doing something isn't really a good way to get a point across. There are plenty of things that desperately need changes that we don't do, such as nullsec industry.


Which is why i said that the 15minute timer for aggression that is put on a player because someone else points him and he doesn't actually make any aggression should be considered for removal from HIGH SEC because there are no super caps in high sec therefore I don't think the this one agression timer is needed in high sec as it is only used by goons for freighter ganking.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#342 - 2012-12-01 01:42:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Von Kroll wrote:
Which is why i said that the 15minute timer for aggression that is put on a player because someone else points him and he doesn't actually make any aggression should be considered for removal from HIGH SEC because there are no super caps in high sec therefore I don't think the this one agression timer is needed in high sec as it is only used by goons for freighter ganking.


It wasn't just supercaps that were doing this. People were doing it in subcaps aswell. And no, lots of people make use of this mechanic. The number of PvP ship kills in highsec rose quite abit once this was implemented, because people could no longer avoid death by logging off.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Bing Bangboom
DAMAG Safety Commission
#343 - 2012-12-01 01:48:43 UTC
Alana Charen-Teng wrote:
There are a lot of posters echoing the following sentiment: "Miner bumping should not be an exploit or considered harassment, but miners should have a means to protect themselves against it." (I am referring specifically to miner bumping, because I have no experience with freighter bumping)

This is a fair and reasonable position - the problem is that people are misled by the claim that there are no viable methods for protecting against bumps. Methods exist, but they inevitably require an expenditure of effort that the most vocal miners are unwilling to make.

There is a list of proposed methods on this blog page, and I will try to summarize them below.
proveldtariat.wordpress.com/anti-bump-methods/

1. Orbiting - this decreases the likelihood of bumps and ensures that your ship will eventually return to its original range from your target asteroid, though your mining lasers may be deactivated by that time. Effectiveness increases dramatically when using a barge fit for fast movement with a microwarpdrive. The microwarpdrive also increases your ship's mass by a factor of 5, making each bump less effective.

2. Positioning - Positioning your mining barge closer to asteroids, or ideally even between multiple asteroids, increases the difficulty of bumping you out of range.

3. Webbing - Using in-corp friends or alts to apply stasis webifiers to your mining barge to reduce the effectiveness of a bump.

There are two additional strategies that have been pointed out repeatedly:
4. Moving Elsewhere - This strategy is as effective as it is obvious. Miner bumpers do not care to follow you to multiple other systems. Inevitably, the characters who vehemently claim that there are no effective counters to bumping are the ones who fail to try this and insist on remaining in the same system.

5. Suicide Ganking - As a previous poster mentioned, this has apparently been performed with some success against bumping stabbers.


You forgot

6) Pay 10,000,000 ISK to the nearest Agent of the New Order of Highsec.

This is the economically smart move.

Bing Bangboom
Agent of the New Order of Highsec
Beligerent Undesirable

Highsec is worth fighting for.

By choosing to mine in New Order systems, highsec miners have agreed to follow the New Halaima Code of Conduct.  www.minerbumping.com
Jaenelle SaDiablo
Care-Bear Central
Care-Free Coalition
#344 - 2012-12-01 04:33:52 UTC
Malcolm Rennolds wrote:
I see several situations where bumping is featured in EvE.


Edit: Rule 24 Off topic posting is prohibited - ISD Tyrozan

3: Bumping miners. If you're at your computer being bumped is a manner of manually piloting to weaken them bump and you can likely keep yourself in range of your mining lasers without to much trouble. If you're afk, you're engaging in a playstyle that CCP shouldn't make easier, or support, so who cares what happens to you? Bumping active miners, aka new order bumpers, is part of the kind of crazy emergent game play that makes eve awesome. Don't get me wrong, I hate then new order. It's funny, but I have an ice mining alt and don't see why I should pay 10m isk to someone just so that they don't fly their ship into mine. Here's the thing. It's eve. You make your own fun, oftentimes at the expense of others. With the bounty changes on Dec 4th there will be a great way to punish the new order.


this is completely inaccurate in regards to being at your keyboard meaning you can avoid it. I recently went ice mining in kamio in a mac and a wonderful man who evemailed me his terrorist demands of 10 mil isk flew around in a ship with a micro warp drive that bumped me over 10km per bum sometimes more. I literally count not complete a single cycle with the distance he was able to bump. I personally think a system of anchoring would be handy. all things should have a way to counter it or at least a cost associated with it. after about 20 minutes of harrassment I had 2 options, go somewhere else to mine ice or log out and play another day as there was no recourse to be had.
Alana Charen-Teng
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#345 - 2012-12-01 05:08:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Alana Charen-Teng
Jaenelle SaDiablo wrote:
Malcolm Rennolds wrote:
I see several situations where bumping is featured in EvE.


Edit: Rule 24 Off topic posting is prohibited - ISD Tyrozan

3: Bumping miners. If you're at your computer being bumped is a manner of manually piloting to weaken them bump and you can likely keep yourself in range of your mining lasers without to much trouble. If you're afk, you're engaging in a playstyle that CCP shouldn't make easier, or support, so who cares what happens to you? Bumping active miners, aka new order bumpers, is part of the kind of crazy emergent game play that makes eve awesome. Don't get me wrong, I hate then new order. It's funny, but I have an ice mining alt and don't see why I should pay 10m isk to someone just so that they don't fly their ship into mine. Here's the thing. It's eve. You make your own fun, oftentimes at the expense of others. With the bounty changes on Dec 4th there will be a great way to punish the new order.


this is completely inaccurate in regards to being at your keyboard meaning you can avoid it. I recently went ice mining in kamio in a mac and a wonderful man who evemailed me his terrorist demands of 10 mil isk flew around in a ship with a micro warp drive that bumped me over 10km per bum sometimes more. I literally count not complete a single cycle with the distance he was able to bump. I personally think a system of anchoring would be handy. all things should have a way to counter it or at least a cost associated with it. after about 20 minutes of harrassment I had 2 options, go somewhere else to mine ice or log out and play another day as there was no recourse to be had.


Have you tried employing any of the strategies listed on the Proveldtariat blog (which I listed several pages back in this thread)? Or did you just sit around and prematurely (and inaccurately) conclude that there are no effective counters to bumping...
Katsu Masanori
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#346 - 2012-12-01 05:10:57 UTC
Having used bumping against some who have harrassed me in the asteroid belts and some who have ninja salvaged my missions I find it allows some to express their anger at the harrasser and the ninja slavager.

No harm is done to that harrasser's ship and so therefore this game mechanic should be allowed to continue especiallly in light of the new update that allows players to put bounties on anyone at any time.
Von Kroll
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#347 - 2012-12-01 05:10:58 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Von Kroll wrote:
Which is why i said that the 15minute timer for aggression that is put on a player because someone else points him and he doesn't actually make any aggression should be considered for removal from HIGH SEC because there are no super caps in high sec therefore I don't think the this one agression timer is needed in high sec as it is only used by goons for freighter ganking.


It wasn't just supercaps that were doing this. People were doing it in subcaps aswell. And no, lots of people make use of this mechanic. The number of PvP ship kills in highsec rose quite abit once this was implemented, because people could no longer avoid death by logging off.


well if you can't gank someone before they can log off then you don't deserve the kill.. thats why it's called suicide ganking. Also i doubt there were many sub cap pilots who's tank can last the 15minutes, because before the rule there was still aggression timers it was just that if you lasted 15minutes you're ship disappeared. I highly doubt a supcap can preform such a feat, unless being attacked by a new frig pilot with no skills.

since a null and low sec rule was applied to all of eve because super caps were too tanky to be killed in 15minutes, then i propose that freighters be given the chance to defend themselves. If the 15 minute timer where someone points you and it means you aggressed stands (although i still strongly advised it be looked at for removal from high sec) Then why not give freighter two lows and two mids and two highs and 3 rig slots so that they can choose for more hold/damage control for tank capital shield mods or inertia stabalizers to warp faster or warp core staballizers. If the ship is going to be subject to a rule meant for super caps then it should be able to tank itself and provide counter measures. A freighter is as big as a cap so it should be able to fit itself for defense since it is subject to a rule put in for super caps. Or have choice for larger hold this would make the gank worth more if someone doesn't defend themselves or gives the freighter pilot a chance to fit i stabs so it has the chance to warp away before the next bump. Or don't let them bump indefinitely like i said the fact that with current game mechanics you can bump a freighter pilot indefinitely is completely ridiculous. So to review my ideas for discussion is, 1 remove aggression timer that a aggresses a player who didn't actually make any aggression. 2. give the freighter pilots slots so that they can make a fit for defense or to optimize capacity or align time (basically give them same choices as other pilots). 3. program it so that after so many bumps a player is gcc'd and con-corded.
G'monk
State War Academy
Caldari State
#348 - 2012-12-01 06:02:05 UTC
I believe that this should be fairly simple to get rid of. Bumping for anything other than an accident is activities worthy of an adult or post teen playstyle. This gives a bad name to the game as a whole. Having said that, why should bothering someone just because you can be allowed without some repercussions? I believe that if the goofball wanting to bump someone cause they can wants to let him, then fine him immediately the value of the vehicle he is bumping. Bumping is not a playstyle, it is a way to bother another player. Accidents do happen, but that can be check by looking at the 5 seconds prior to the bump. Ice mining can have as many as 50 ships around the same ice asteroid, without bumping, so there is no reason to bump anyone. coming out of Jita, you are going to get bumped, makes sense. There is no reason for 2 miners to try to occupy the same space while mining or to cut someone off from mining.
Kwi Noi
Ascendance Of New Eden
Workers Trade Federation
#349 - 2012-12-01 06:37:21 UTC
This is just more of the 'gank' the miners and industrialists attitude since we are all 'carebears' and afk or robo miners.

CCP nerfs the Hulkageddon gankers - they've just re-emerged as alts who bump and plan to use the new destroyers upgrades to go back on the ganking trail.

I can say, to me, I think this is an exploit of the game mechanics, no one should be able to interfer in peaceful operations without some sort of penalty.

Extortion is a nasty business, is was a crime before we were cut off from earth, it's a crime now, imo.

Solution - make Concord respond faster. Enough said.

Many of us like the Industrial complex of EVE more than the blow stuff up part of it...if it keeps going downhill like this maybe I'll go play Star Citizen and see if it's any better...
Sycotic Deninard
Basgerin Pirate
#350 - 2012-12-01 06:39:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Sycotic Deninard
Well perhaps CCP can introduce an anchor module that the miner can deploy that will make them immune to being bumped with a penalty of course Blink

Some of the penalties can be:

While anchored, ship can't turn, move or warp away.
Have a timer to un-anchor yourself before you can move, align or warp away say like 5-10 secs or so.
While anchored, the amount being mined is reduced.

A person that does'nt use his intelligence is no better than an animal that does'nt have any and thus are steaks on the table by choice and consent.
Yasha Ekudram
My Dot Corp
#351 - 2012-12-01 08:16:33 UTC
Thomas Gallant wrote:
If you're trying to tackle griefing for the sake a griefing, without any goal of profit or revenge... You're taking on a very large and central part of high sec griefing, as from what I've seen, most griefers will willing take a small to even moderate loss to carry out their goals. I think what makes bumping a slightly different issue is that there is no cost with it. no ship loss, no sec hit, or anything in game done to discourage this.


There is a loss with it to clarify. The loss to the Miner from his/her beams breaking and for ICE miners this is a sever loss.
Tusen Takk
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#352 - 2012-12-01 08:22:48 UTC
Eve Online has a large learning curve. Part of this learning curve is learning how to not die from stupid things, and to know when to log off until they just leave you alone. Don't like being bumped? there are all sorts of empty systems around Agil, go somewhere less populated, even if it is more inconvenient.

I, for one, do not feel that a game should be dumbed down after garnering a reputation as a game that takes a while to get used to, but is far more rewarding to play after that breaking in period compared to other MMO's (*cough*SWTOR*cough*). You have to adapt to survive, not run crying to mommy to make it better or you quit.
Yasha Ekudram
My Dot Corp
#353 - 2012-12-01 08:24:19 UTC
Kainotomiu Ronuken wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
  • If players feel they are being repeatedly harassed despite trying to avoid this practice by all necessary means, they are free and encouraged to file a petition.



    • Also, I was wondering; you may be aware that the New Order currently penalises people who file petitions against us by raising the cost for their mining fee to 30 million ISK. When you 'encourage' them to open a petition, are you implying that we shouldn't be discouraging petitions?




    I would think Discouraging a petition (out of game method of reaching "CUSTOMER SERVICE" is not withen the game scope and therefore should be a act require some sort of repercussion.
    Furry Pirate
    #354 - 2012-12-01 08:30:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Furry Pirate
    I've honestly tried to read all 18 pages of this stuff, so I'm just going to put in my two cents worth:

    1. Miners are at the bottom of the "food chain" - it stinks, but if all the predators ate the herbivores, everybody dies.
    2. Don't pay - simple. Remove the profit motive and they will actually have to come up with a plan that involves risk.
    3. Put out secure cans or rookie ships as barriers - or just pump out a jet can with a bookmark every 3 minutes.
    4. Make connections with miners in other corporations - they might offer you logistics, or just as eyes and ears.
    5. (or) Go and do it to your competition, using the cheap industrials from the business and industry career paths.

    Personally, I intend to go out bumping in my Abaddon and to force those who issue "mining permits" to either do something about it, refund the money to the people they have scammed, or lose face.

    I suggest that all like minded people with battlecruisers and larger do to the same, especially to intimidate those who are preying on the miners - I like the minerals cheap, so my ships are cheaper to buy.

    If you can shake them down in turn, their lame little scams isn't going to seem so appealing any more - especially when far more experienced and organized groups are so much better at it than they are.
    Tusen Takk
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #355 - 2012-12-01 08:39:44 UTC
    See? It encourages creativity and teamwork, which as we all know based on previous updates and patches, CCP is very keen on these being a core part of the game. Why fix what isn't broken?
    Mallak Azaria
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #356 - 2012-12-01 08:52:32 UTC
    Furry Pirate wrote:
    I've honestly tried to read all 18 pages of this stuff, so I'm just going to put in my two cents worth:

    1. Miners are at the bottom of the "food chain" - it stinks, but if all the predators ate the herbivores, everybody dies.
    2. Don't pay - simple. Remove the profit motive and they will actually have to come up with a plan that involves risk.
    3. Put out secure cans or rookie ships as barriers - or just pump out a jet can with a bookmark every 3 minutes.
    4. Make connections with miners in other corporations - they might offer you logistics, or just as eyes and ears.
    5. (or) Go and do it to your competition, using the cheap industrials from the business and industry career paths.

    Personally, I intend to go out bumping in my Abaddon and to force those who issue "mining permits" to either do something about it, refund the money to the people they have scammed, or lose face.

    I suggest that all like minded people with battlecruisers and larger do to the same, especially to intimidate those who are preying on the miners - I like the minerals cheap, so my ships are cheaper to buy.

    If you can shake them down in turn, their lame little scams isn't going to seem so appealing any more - especially when far more experienced and organized groups are so much better at it than they are.


    This guy gets it.

    This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
    Preceptor Stigmartyr
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #357 - 2012-12-01 08:54:42 UTC
    Tusen Takk wrote:
    See? It encourages creativity and teamwork, which as we all know based on previous updates and patches, CCP is very keen on these being a core part of the game. Why fix what isn't broken?


    < / thread >

    **4/19 **NEVER FORGET ಠ_ಠ
    Shannae Darkehart
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #358 - 2012-12-01 09:04:10 UTC
    Larkall wrote:
    I think that the problem is not with bumping itself. In my opinion the problem lies with the mining mechanism, it is an activity that requires zero user input for extended periods of time. As a result, people go afk and do other stuff while leaving their lasers running in the belt. If anything should be changed it should be the basic mining mechanics that promotes players to be play the game afk.

    (snip)

    TL:DR: Bumping is a good and working mechanism. Fix mining instead.


    I've never been a victim of, nor commited, this form of extortion, but I can tell you point blank that a lot of the people up in arms are mad because of the disparate loss investments for the encounter, and I think the cause of that disparity primarily revolves around the fact that the miner is usually AFK. Or if they're not AFK, they've tabbed out, because Mining doesn't require interaction.

    So, they lose half an hour or more of mining time, to a bumper that probably only spent a minute to five on the deed. Everybody that I see complaining about it in the game, is complaining because of this.

    If people had to actualy be at their keyboards to mine, they could dodge bumpers or otherwise bump back et cetera.

    If you're not going to fix mining any time soon (which doesn't seem to be on the list), a band aid solution is to enable a bump warning sound effect. That way people who are tabbed out but not AFK will know what happened.

    Other than that: I am a miner, bumping extortion is fine. Welcome to New Eden, man up or please kindly watch so that the door doesn't hit you in the ass on your way out.

    I'm sorry if you feel there's a legitimate reason for botting but there isn't and that's basically that. Not liking a game doesn't entitle you to cheat. Ever. At all. Enough with the moral equivalency please. ~CCP Sreegs
    Andski
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #359 - 2012-12-01 09:10:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
    (edit: I find it necessary to point out that the extent of my involvement in hisec shenanigans in the past year has been limited to ECM bursting the 4-4 undock during Burn Jita and killing a few AFK pods during the same event. I am far from your typical ~griefer~ - I do believe that some aspects of hisec shenanigans need to be reined in, but bumping is not one of them.)

    The apparent need for this thread worries me: until last summer, CCP never went down the road of intentionally and knowingly enabling such hands-off, uninvolved gameplay. The effects of enabling this hands-off gameplay even further include 600M ISK PLEX and rock-bottom ice prices.

    If it's simply based on the fact that people have been complaining openly about miner bumping, that alarms me greatly. Will the future of scamming in EVE be reviewed if enough attention is drawn to it on the forums? Will the future of corp heists and in-corp ganking be taken under review?

    The situation with miner bumping is simple to avoid. There are thousands of hisec systems and if someone wishes to mine in a more convenient location, for say proximity to a market hub, it should not come with the expectation of complete safety, isolation from the actions of other players, much less the expectation that they should have the ability to perform that activity while only giving the game an few minutes of attention every hour. The New Order and their copycats have certainly been making quite a bit of noise around the forums, but their activity remains isolated to a few systems. It is ultimately of little consequence.

    My opposition to the continuing simplification of the game, the compartmentalization of players and this seeming trend towards safety is simple. No game has undergone these kinds of changes and remained with even a shadow of its former glory. My fear, which cannot possibly be deemed unjustified, is that any decision from the GM team in this regard will essentially set a precedent that could conceivably lead to theft, scamming and betrayal - the possibilities in this game that make trust a valuable commodity - being prohibited.

    It is also justifiable to state that I cannot help but feel that the "leave bumping alone" input in this thread will go ignored. This has been the case many times in the past. I find it deplorable that the possibility of this thread merely existing for the sake of later stating "there was a discussion" later on is not an unreasonable one at this point. I also doubt that I'm alone in the belief that the conclusion of this discussion was all but foregone by the time this thread was posted. These are not merely groundless suspicions, but possibilities inferred from previous instances of "calls for discussion" where CCP staff showed absolutely no indication of taking any of the feedback they requested into consideration. I do not wish to believe this, nor do I intend on stating this as a fact, but it is, in my mind, a possibility nonetheless.

    I apologize if this post veers somewhat off-topic, but those are my feelings on this matter. I do not, however, apologize for my candor. That is all I will say regarding this matter.

    Twitter: @EVEAndski

    "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
    Preceptor Stigmartyr
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #360 - 2012-12-01 09:18:20 UTC
    Shannae Darkehart wrote:
    I am a miner, bumping extortion is fine. Welcome to New Eden, man up or please kindly watch so that the door doesn't hit you in the ass on your way out.


    +1


    If I understand the dilemma: Pirating requires intense effort, coordination and risk while miners complain about having to work for a living.

    In addition to voluminous reading for the next week, I'd highly recommend that CCP get a first hand experience of what it takes to do our job.

    It'll make you want to go back to mining.

    **4/19 **NEVER FORGET ಠ_ಠ