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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1241 - 2011-10-21 14:59:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominus Alterai
Ingvar Angst wrote:
This may be too radical of a suggestion for most people to handle, but how about this for an idea... (ideally would be not introducing them at all, but...)

Customs offices remain where they are until someone puts up a POCO.

This allows people to transition in at a pace the game can keep up with. Possibly as an "incentive" to switch them over tax rates could slowly increase over time.

This still doesn't alleviate the issue of allowing other people control of our PI, which is a horrible idea, but it may help reduce the sting that something as short-sighted as instantly removing all customs offices at once would have.


Decent idea. Having tax rates double or triple every few days or every week should make people realize that sooner or later, a POCO will be cheaper than the NPC version. Also, it frees CCP's dev team from having to remove them all from space during downtime. Or, if you prefer, less work for CCP, more pew pew for players.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1242 - 2011-10-21 15:06:17 UTC
Dominus Alterai wrote:
Another way to solve this is to not make POCOs in low-sec destructible, as this will GREATLY decrease the costs of low-sec PI, as well as making them more attractive to smaller corps or smaller gangs, as a conquerable structure with only a few hundred thousand hitpoints should be easily feasible for a 10-20 man gang of bc's and bs's.


The reason you need a big hitpoint buffer is to keep the attacker from "blitzing" the structure and leaving, completely ignoring the defense fleet. If you reduce the EHP, at you need to increase the resists considerably. Then the defender can RR the structure to force the attacker to fight them or leave. It also makes repping easier if the attacker doesn't show up.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1243 - 2011-10-21 15:15:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominus Alterai
Jack Dant wrote:
Dominus Alterai wrote:
Another way to solve this is to not make POCOs in low-sec destructible, as this will GREATLY decrease the costs of low-sec PI, as well as making them more attractive to smaller corps or smaller gangs, as a conquerable structure with only a few hundred thousand hitpoints should be easily feasible for a 10-20 man gang of bc's and bs's.


The reason you need a big hitpoint buffer is to keep the attacker from "blitzing" the structure and leaving, completely ignoring the defense fleet. If you reduce the EHP, at you need to increase the resists considerably. Then the defender can RR the structure to force the attacker to fight them or leave. It also makes repping easier if the attacker doesn't show up.


Dominus Alterai wrote:
to not make POCOs in low-sec destructible


I was referring to if the structure was conquerable. If it's conquerable, it needs enough ehp where a small gang (15-20 members) can take it in under 15 or 20 minutes. This will allow a quick swapping over the customs office and also allow the people who want to own it to either protect it or be forced to re-capture it, forcing GFs on a celestial where people won't be able to play station/gate games, which is a VERY GOOD THING.

If it's destructible, then yes. It will need enough ehp where an offending fleet won't just ignore the defenders and, in essence, suicide gank the POCO; take massive losses in order to reinforce it or reinforce it and warp out. Large amounts of EHP, similar to a small or medium POS, should be on the destructible POCOs that should be in 0.0 space and w-space.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
#1244 - 2011-10-21 15:24:52 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Zhula Guixgrixks wrote:


  • Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate+ small offset ,indestructible (Owner: CONCORD). A gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for a few hours. HP ~ Small Pos.

  • Null-Sec NPC - Current Tax Rate, industrictible (Owner: local NPC). Gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for 1-2 days . HP ~ Med Pos.


Why would anyone attack them then? The only reason would be pure griefing, as you have removed the two legitimate reasons for attacking a POCO: getting the income and forcing a fight.


It's about sabotage and it's still better than having no effect at all (current solution). Somebody asked for a raid. Add raids to low+npc space to spice it a little bit ..but not too much ! Raiding results in disabling CO and destruction/drop of some goods.

The real challenge is to find good balance between a motivation to gain/earn something and pure grief. The solution proposed in the blog will end in pure grief.

0ccupational Hazzard --> check out the true love story 
Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
#1245 - 2011-10-21 15:25:15 UTC
Zhula Guixgrixks wrote:
Because of the known griefing potential I myself was thinking of a more griefer-proofed approach.
With current rates of 50% of the materials being produced in hi-sec, the current iteration will force much
more people to hi-sec, which is not good.

Lord Timelord proposed:

Lord Timelord wrote:

Empire CO - Double the Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Still Owned by CONCORD)
Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Still Owned by CONCORD)
Null-Sec CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built)
W-Space CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built)


Even if it's not reflecting the exhaustive wish list of people posting in this thread, it probably matches well with the already
written code. I like this approach and would just see it little bit more fine grained.


  • Empire CO - Double/Tripple the Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Owner: CONCORD)

  • Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate+ small offset ,indestructible (Owner: CONCORD). A gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for a few hours. HP ~ Small Pos.

  • Null-Sec NPC - Current Tax Rate, industrictible (Owner: local NPC). Gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for 1-2 days . HP ~ Med Pos.

  • Null-Sec CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built) . HP - Large POS

  • W-Space CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built) . HP - Large POS




I don't agree with the Low Sec = Concord Ownership idea. Low Sec has long been left forgotten in terms of development and making it a watered down version on High Sec is unappealing. Low Sec's mechanics should be closer to that of Null Sec - i.e vulnerable.

Vulnerability might be something to fear, but it acts as a magnate for conflict and player interaction (collaboration in defence or attack).

Keep Low Sec's POCOs vulnerable and player owned.

C.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1246 - 2011-10-21 15:27:31 UTC
Dominus Alterai wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:

The reason you need a big hitpoint buffer is to keep the attacker from "blitzing" the structure and leaving, completely ignoring the defense fleet. If you reduce the EHP, at you need to increase the resists considerably. Then the defender can RR the structure to force the attacker to fight them or leave. It also makes repping easier if the attacker doesn't show up.


Dominus Alterai wrote:
to not make POCOs in low-sec destructible


I was referring to if the structure was conquerable. If it's conquerable, it needs enough ehp where a small gang (15-20 members) can take it in under 15 or 20 minutes. This will allow a quick swapping over the customs office and also allow the people who want to own it to either protect it or be forced to re-capture it.

If it's destructible, then yes. It will need enough ehp where an offending fleet won't just ignore the defenders and, in essence, suicide gank the POCO; take massive losses in order to reinforce it or reinforce it and warp out. Large amounts of EHP, similar to a small or medium POS, should be on the destructible POCOs that should be in 0.0 space and w-space.


Sorry I didn't make myself clear. I agree making it conquerable (at least as an option) is good and will make them more economical. Also, if they have less EHP, they will change hands more often and create more conflict, if only because people won't be so bored of shooting them. But it still needs some sort of protection against such a "suicide gank".

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1247 - 2011-10-21 15:28:30 UTC
Zhula Guixgrixks wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
Zhula Guixgrixks wrote:


  • Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate+ small offset ,indestructible (Owner: CONCORD). A gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for a few hours. HP ~ Small Pos.

  • Null-Sec NPC - Current Tax Rate, industrictible (Owner: local NPC). Gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for 1-2 days . HP ~ Med Pos.


Why would anyone attack them then? The only reason would be pure griefing, as you have removed the two legitimate reasons for attacking a POCO: getting the income and forcing a fight.


It's about sabotage and it's still better than having no effect at all (current solution). Somebody asked for a raid. Add raids to low+npc space to spice it a little bit ..but not too much ! Raiding results in disabling CO and destruction/drop of some goods.

The real challenge is to find good balance between a motivation to gain/earn something and pure grief. The solution proposed in the blog will end in pure grief.


Yes, the currently proposed mechanics of being fully destructible is rife with opportunities to grief, but having no way to switch over ownership of the customs office is NOT a good thing. That tends to lead to monopolies and shutting out 90% of eve from PI. Either have them fully destructible, or, as I prefer, have them conquerable. At least in Low-sec. They can remain fully destructible as proposed by CCP in 0.0 and w-space.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1248 - 2011-10-21 15:30:28 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Dominus Alterai wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:

The reason you need a big hitpoint buffer is to keep the attacker from "blitzing" the structure and leaving, completely ignoring the defense fleet. If you reduce the EHP, at you need to increase the resists considerably. Then the defender can RR the structure to force the attacker to fight them or leave. It also makes repping easier if the attacker doesn't show up.


Dominus Alterai wrote:
to not make POCOs in low-sec destructible


I was referring to if the structure was conquerable. If it's conquerable, it needs enough ehp where a small gang (15-20 members) can take it in under 15 or 20 minutes. This will allow a quick swapping over the customs office and also allow the people who want to own it to either protect it or be forced to re-capture it.

If it's destructible, then yes. It will need enough ehp where an offending fleet won't just ignore the defenders and, in essence, suicide gank the POCO; take massive losses in order to reinforce it or reinforce it and warp out. Large amounts of EHP, similar to a small or medium POS, should be on the destructible POCOs that should be in 0.0 space and w-space.


Sorry I didn't make myself clear. I agree making it conquerable (at least as an option) is good and will make them more economical. Also, if they have less EHP, they will change hands more often and create more conflict, if only because people won't be so bored of shooting them. But it still needs some sort of protection against such a "suicide gank".


The "protection" is that the fleet that lost it can come back an hour or two later and re-capture it if they truly want it. No pvp gang will wait around for hours for a SURE fight where a larger, better prepared fleet will arrive to wipe them out.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1249 - 2011-10-21 15:33:31 UTC
Dominus Alterai wrote:
The "protection" is that the fleet that lost it can come back an hour or two later and re-capture it if they truly want it. No pvp gang will wait around for hours for a SURE fight where a larger, better prepared fleet will arrive to wipe them out.


Ah, so you would skip the reinforcement timer? POCO ping-pong?

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Meldan Anstian
The Night Crew
#1250 - 2011-10-21 15:35:46 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:


  • Pricelevels are off, PCOs will be unprofitable
    1. PCOs will be unprofitable and not worth the invested time and especially ISK
    2. Income from PCOs will be too low to justify the build costs and risk deploying them
    3. Taxrate will be either near 0 or near 100
    4. Taxes in Highsec for P4 products too high




    • Not sure if this list would include the issue of the PCO not being worth defending or attacking (other than for grieving purposes).

    How much ISK (ie ships) do you risk to defend a 80m ISK structure that brings in a few mil ISK a month? Why attack a structure that pays nothing immediately, but only gives you the ability to invest 80m yourself for the same amount of income, especially since there are thousands of planets around?

    Also, regarding the economic impact-

    Think it's pretty universally agreed that PI prices would go up. How much is hotly debated. I don't think the effect on the economy can be predicted to any degree of certainty, especially since there is wide disagreement on what this change (as proposed anyway) would actually do.

    Having a dramatic effect on PI prices (like quadrupling) would also have a corresponding effect on T2 stuff, and anything done in a POS. That effect would ripple throughout the economy, and I think have a significant effect on how the game is played, even those who do nothing with PI at all currently will be affected. For example, non-t2 mods (faction, meta 0-4, officer) would be more in demand since t2 products would be higher priced. Higher prices would draw more people to industry driving prices down. Hard to predict exactly what would happen.

    So unless I am misunderstanding the intent, it would be desirable to not have a big impact on PI prices.
    Dominus Alterai
    Star Freaks
    #1251 - 2011-10-21 15:41:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominus Alterai
    Jack Dant wrote:
    Dominus Alterai wrote:
    The "protection" is that the fleet that lost it can come back an hour or two later and re-capture it if they truly want it. No pvp gang will wait around for hours for a SURE fight where a larger, better prepared fleet will arrive to wipe them out.


    Ah, so you would skip the reinforcement timer? POCO ping-pong?


    Why not? Either you REALLY want that one customs office in order to tax the living hell out of everyone, which is bad for everyone else, or you can just go capture another one on an identical planet in either the same system or in a near by system. I think this will mainly only happen on plasma, lava, or storm planets. Maybe ice planets too. It basically forces people that want to do PI to either move to other low-sec systems, further populating low-sec, or gives people some "on demand" small fleet engagements, or both. OR CCP could keep the reinforcement timer and the first person to shoot it after the reinforcement timer ends (when at 0 hp) takes the office, much like how outposts are captured.

    And lol. POCO Ping-Pong sounds like a new Eve meta game.

    Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
    Meldan Anstian
    The Night Crew
    #1252 - 2011-10-21 15:41:11 UTC
    Jack Dant wrote:
    Dominus Alterai wrote:
    The "protection" is that the fleet that lost it can come back an hour or two later and re-capture it if they truly want it. No pvp gang will wait around for hours for a SURE fight where a larger, better prepared fleet will arrive to wipe them out.


    Ah, so you would skip the reinforcement timer? POCO ping-pong?



    Hmm, this gave me an idea.

    After you put up or capture a PCO, it can not be attacked for a period of time. How long would have to be discussed.

    I can see pros and cons to having this mechanic in game.
    Dominus Alterai
    Star Freaks
    #1253 - 2011-10-21 15:43:32 UTC
    Meldan Anstian wrote:
    Jack Dant wrote:
    Dominus Alterai wrote:
    The "protection" is that the fleet that lost it can come back an hour or two later and re-capture it if they truly want it. No pvp gang will wait around for hours for a SURE fight where a larger, better prepared fleet will arrive to wipe them out.


    Ah, so you would skip the reinforcement timer? POCO ping-pong?



    Hmm, this gave me an idea.

    After you put up or capture a PCO, it can not be attacked for a period of time. How long would have to be discussed.

    I can see pros and cons to having this mechanic in game.


    I would say, at MOST 48 hours, but a more realistic number would be 12-24 hours. Good idea though.

    Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
    Jack Dant
    The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
    #1254 - 2011-10-21 15:50:13 UTC
    Dominus Alterai wrote:
    Jack Dant wrote:
    Dominus Alterai wrote:
    The "protection" is that the fleet that lost it can come back an hour or two later and re-capture it if they truly want it. No pvp gang will wait around for hours for a SURE fight where a larger, better prepared fleet will arrive to wipe them out.


    Ah, so you would skip the reinforcement timer? POCO ping-pong?


    Why not? Either you REALLY want that one customs office in order to tax the living hell out of everyone, which is bad for everyone else, or you can just go capture another one on an identical planet in either the same system or in a near by system. I think this will mainly only happen on plasma, lava, or storm planets. Maybe ice planets too. It basically forces people that want to do PI to either move to other low-sec systems, further populating low-sec, or gives people some "on demand" small fleet engagements, or both.


    Timezones are the issue. An EU corp logs on in the afternoon to find the US corp in the same system took the POCO. Now you have to shoot it to get it back. Day after day. No fleet engagements there.

    Quote:
    OR CCP could keep the reinforcement timer and the first person to shoot it after the reinforcement timer ends (when at 0 hp) takes the office, much like how outposts are captured.


    This is what I thought you meant originally.

    Meldan Anstian wrote:
    After you put up or capture a PCO, it can not be attacked for a period of time. How long would have to be discussed.


    If it stays operational while reinforced (the devs said so), you already have around 24 hours to use it before you can lose it.

    What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
    Hakaru Ishiwara
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #1255 - 2011-10-21 15:50:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaru Ishiwara
    Ingvar Angst wrote:
    ....
    Yes, launches from the planet will be available. How about getting things to the planet? If customs offices go >poof<, this whole aspect of PI is shut down. If someone else puts a POCO on your production planet, you're entire operation is screwed if they decide to be dicks about it. Taking the full personal control of one's own PI and allowing others to stop it with a click of a button... it's breaking something that's (imo) needed on an individual level.
    I can imagine a serious "land-grab" once the first gantries are made and shipped out to low and null sec space. This does seem like a highly artificial mechanism for griefing established space holders. But, hey, this is CCP game development at its best: throw the baby in the deep end of the pool and watch what happens next.

    It might be an interesting tactic to tie up high-sec and some low-sec station-based industrial facilities with bulk / junk T1 module jobs to grief those attempting to build gantries. Hmmmm. I like where this is heading.

    Also, I wonder if or what type of POS manufacturing array will be capable of building the Gantry.

    Edit: foiled the forum's PvP attempt once again! My Copy and Paste technique will beat CCP Forum Development style every time!

    +++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
    Ingvar Angst
    Nasty Pope Holding Corp
    #1256 - 2011-10-21 15:53:06 UTC
    Dominus Alterai wrote:
    Jack Dant wrote:
    Dominus Alterai wrote:
    The "protection" is that the fleet that lost it can come back an hour or two later and re-capture it if they truly want it. No pvp gang will wait around for hours for a SURE fight where a larger, better prepared fleet will arrive to wipe them out.


    Ah, so you would skip the reinforcement timer? POCO ping-pong?


    Why not? Either you REALLY want that one customs office in order to tax the living hell out of everyone, which is bad for everyone else, or you can just go capture another one on an identical planet in either the same system or in a near by system. I think this will mainly only happen on plasma, lava, or storm planets. Maybe ice planets too. It basically forces people that want to do PI to either move to other low-sec systems, further populating low-sec, or gives people some "on demand" small fleet engagements, or both. OR CCP could keep the reinforcement timer and the first person to shoot it after the reinforcement timer ends (when at 0 hp) takes the office, much like how outposts are captured.

    And lol. POCO Ping-Pong sounds like a new Eve meta game.


    This would be annoying as hell in wormholes and ultimately provide little to no benefit however. The only time I'd see this being useful is moving in to a new hole with some of these already up.

    That brings up a question... can we offline and scoop these up if we want to move them to a different planet/system?

    Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
    Dominus Alterai
    Star Freaks
    #1257 - 2011-10-21 15:57:18 UTC
    Ingvar Angst wrote:
    Dominus Alterai wrote:
    Jack Dant wrote:
    Dominus Alterai wrote:
    The "protection" is that the fleet that lost it can come back an hour or two later and re-capture it if they truly want it. No pvp gang will wait around for hours for a SURE fight where a larger, better prepared fleet will arrive to wipe them out.


    Ah, so you would skip the reinforcement timer? POCO ping-pong?


    Why not? Either you REALLY want that one customs office in order to tax the living hell out of everyone, which is bad for everyone else, or you can just go capture another one on an identical planet in either the same system or in a near by system. I think this will mainly only happen on plasma, lava, or storm planets. Maybe ice planets too. It basically forces people that want to do PI to either move to other low-sec systems, further populating low-sec, or gives people some "on demand" small fleet engagements, or both. OR CCP could keep the reinforcement timer and the first person to shoot it after the reinforcement timer ends (when at 0 hp) takes the office, much like how outposts are captured.

    And lol. POCO Ping-Pong sounds like a new Eve meta game.


    This would be annoying as hell in wormholes and ultimately provide little to no benefit however. The only time I'd see this being useful is moving in to a new hole with some of these already up.

    That brings up a question... can we offline and scoop these up if we want to move them to a different planet/system?


    Good question, however, I doubt it. And the conquering mechanic should only be for low-sec. Sorry mate, but w-space customs offices should be fully destructible as proposed by CCP (with a few minor adjustments obviously).

    Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
    pmchem
    Brutor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #1258 - 2011-10-21 15:57:51 UTC  |  Edited by: pmchem
    CCP Phantom wrote:

    Please remember that there are a lot of good ideas in this thread also. You folks bring really constructive feedback!


    As I posted here ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=208048#post208048 ) --


    Having taxes set as a percent is NOT the way to do this. It works in real life because it's a percent of what the goods are being sold for. But CCP doesn't know what the goods are selling for, unless you float the item's base tax price daily according to a jita average. You are using some arbitrary value that will eventually (if not immediately) be totally inaccurate, on which people base a tax rate. It makes no sense, because you could have people wanting to set taxes to be, say, 300% in order to get a reasonable fraction of value for a plasma planet.

    Allowing the POCO owner to set a straight up isk per m3 tax would make more sense. It's makes cost immediately clear to the user, it encourages users to have more complex setups on a planet instead of exporting raws or p1s, and it would encourage people to produce the most profitable products per p3 at a given tier, which is a user demand-driven market driver instead of driving the market based on some weird base tax value CCP creates.

    https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
    Dominus Alterai
    Star Freaks
    #1259 - 2011-10-21 16:04:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominus Alterai
    pmchem wrote:
    CCP Phantom wrote:

    Please remember that there are a lot of good ideas in this thread also. You folks bring really constructive feedback!


    As I posted here ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=208048#post208048 ) --


    Having taxes set as a percent is NOT the way to do this. It works in real life because it's a percent of what the goods are being sold for. But CCP doesn't know what the goods are selling for, unless you float the item's base tax price daily according to a jita average. You are using some arbitrary value that will eventually (if not immediately) be totally inaccurate, on which people base a tax rate. It makes no sense, because you could have people wanting to set taxes to be, say, 300% in order to get a reasonable fraction of value for a plasma planet.

    Allowing the POCO owner to set a straight up isk per m3 tax would make more sense. It's makes cost immediately clear to the user, it encourages users to have more complex setups on a planet instead of exporting raws or p1s, and it would encourage people to produce the most profitable products per p3 at a given tier, which is a user demand-driven market driver instead of driving the market based on some weird base tax value CCP creates.


    First off, the tax rate is set the same way the insurance rates are: by the previous days market average. CCP get's this info because, well, they own the game code. And making a comparison with real life taxes is similar. Credit ratings are based off of previous data, such as the previous market closing prices. Updated hourly in some cases, yes, but mostly based on previous days closing prices. Even sales tax and income tax are based off of data from the previous YEAR'S economic data. If it were based on M3 exported/imported, then the higher tier products would cost less in taxes, as there is approximately a 25% DECREASE in m3 per tier (ie the P1 products used to make P2 products weigh 25% more than the P2 product itself.)

    Also, prices don't shoot up 300% in one day unless an entire alliance decides to price fix and deny supply (ehem...blue ice).

    also, not sure if trolling....

    Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
    Scrapyard Bob
    EVE University
    Ivy League
    #1260 - 2011-10-21 16:28:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Scrapyard Bob
    pmchem wrote:
    Allowing the POCO owner to set a straight up isk per m3 tax would make more sense. It's makes cost immediately clear to the user, it encourages users to have more complex setups on a planet instead of exporting raws or p1s, and it would encourage people to produce the most profitable products per p3 at a given tier, which is a user demand-driven market driver instead of driving the market based on some weird base tax value CCP creates.


    http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Planetary_interaction#Taxes

    Main issues with the existing tariff scheme is that they need to be adjusted to match reality with what the real conversion rates are between the tiers. Exporting the individual components for Robotics should not cost so much more then what it costs to export Robotics.

    Robotics (3) <- Mechanical Parts (10) + Consumer Electronics (10)
    Mechanical Parts (5) <- Precious Metals (40) + Reactive Metals (40)
    Consumer Electronics (5) <- Chiral Structures (40) + Toxic Metals (40)

    Export tax for Robotics = 600 ISK/u
    Export tax for the (13.3) units of P2 needed to create (1) Robotics = 120 ISK/u of robotics produced
    Export tax for the (212.8) units of P1 needed to create (1) Robotics = 161 ISK/u of robotics produced
    Export tax for the (31920) units of P0 needed to create (1) Robotics = 3192 ISK/u of robotics

    (P0 tariffs too high, P1/P2 tariffs too low currently, P3 tariffs are about right.)

    Existing export tariffs for the various tiers, on a per m3 basis:

    P0 - 0.01 m3 - 0.10/unit = 10 ISK/m3
    P1 - 0.38 m3 - 0.76/unit = 0.5 ISK/m3
    P2 - 1.5 m3 - 9/unit = 6 ISK/m3
    P3 - 6 m3 - 600 ISK/u = 100 ISK/m3
    P4 - 100 m3 - 50,000 ISK/u = 500 ISK/m3

    The problem with trying to harmonize solely on ISK/m3 to say 100 ISK/m3 is that P0 taxes would go up 10x, P1 would go up 200x, P2 would go up 16x, and P4 would go down 5x. It doesn't take into account the various conversion rates between the tiers (such as 3000 P0 -> 20 P1, which results in a decrease from 30 m3 down to 7.6 m3).

    While I agree that P1 & P2 export tariffs need to go up, existing P0 export tariffs being multiplied by 10x would absolutely crush the ability (for those who want to) to move P0 to another planet. And it would lower the tariff rate on P4 too much (that tier only needs about a 50% reduction to bring it more in line with the other tiers).