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i am disappointed in null sec people. (TL:DR talking about local chat.) read first post.

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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1601 - 2012-11-28 23:06:32 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

Keep in mind a few key points, before you declare someone cloaking long term to be too great of a threat.
They are not earning income, or accomplishing anything directly that generates ISK or reward.
If they are depraved enough to be thrilled by the idea they are keeping multiple pilots in check, they are unlikely to do more. You might kill them and spoil their fun if they actually tried anything.



Depends on how you define reward. If denying easy ratting and hauling to your enemies is a goal, then you can definitely be rewarded by parking a cloaked ship in systems and watch everyone stay docked or puts out a ton more effort to rat/haul/mine.

You are correct. They may feel rewarded by depriving an enemy of these.

By extending the definition, you beat them by accepting the added cost, and continuing despite the burden of being constantly prepared to respond.

Is the reward worth it? That's ultimately the question.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1602 - 2012-11-28 23:15:08 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

Keep in mind a few key points, before you declare someone cloaking long term to be too great of a threat.
They are not earning income, or accomplishing anything directly that generates ISK or reward.
If they are depraved enough to be thrilled by the idea they are keeping multiple pilots in check, they are unlikely to do more. You might kill them and spoil their fun if they actually tried anything.



Depends on how you define reward. If denying easy ratting and hauling to your enemies is a goal, then you can definitely be rewarded by parking a cloaked ship in systems and watch everyone stay docked or puts out a ton more effort to rat/haul/mine.

You are correct. They may feel rewarded by depriving an enemy of these.

By extending the definition, you beat them by accepting the added cost, and continuing despite the burden of being constantly prepared to respond.

Is the reward worth it? That's ultimately the question.



If you mean the opportunity cost, it might be next to nothing. I make a lot of my isk trading and doing industry stuff with alts. If I put my main in a bomber, park it in an enemy systems, maybe kill a couple soft targets so they think I'm serious, it costs me nothing and cost them a lot in lost revenue. I'll still keep building and trading in the background.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1603 - 2012-11-28 23:21:47 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

Keep in mind a few key points, before you declare someone cloaking long term to be too great of a threat.
They are not earning income, or accomplishing anything directly that generates ISK or reward.
If they are depraved enough to be thrilled by the idea they are keeping multiple pilots in check, they are unlikely to do more. You might kill them and spoil their fun if they actually tried anything.



Depends on how you define reward. If denying easy ratting and hauling to your enemies is a goal, then you can definitely be rewarded by parking a cloaked ship in systems and watch everyone stay docked or puts out a ton more effort to rat/haul/mine.

You are correct. They may feel rewarded by depriving an enemy of these.

By extending the definition, you beat them by accepting the added cost, and continuing despite the burden of being constantly prepared to respond.

Is the reward worth it? That's ultimately the question.



If you mean the opportunity cost, it might be next to nothing. I make a lot of my isk trading and doing industry stuff with alts. If I put my main in a bomber, park it in an enemy systems, maybe kill a couple soft targets so they think I'm serious, it costs me nothing and cost them a lot in lost revenue. I'll still keep building and trading in the background.

Fair enough, and perfectly valid tactically.

But you know they could fight back as a team, if they put their hearts and minds into it, rather than thinking like a bunch of individuals.

Accepting this approach, you are using harassment tactics instead of gathering intel.
You might catch a few being foolish that way, but strike quality intel is altogether different.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1604 - 2012-11-28 23:22:03 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Seriously though, intel gathering is tainted when a target knows they are being watched. They don't behave the same way as when they are oblivious to your presence.

What sort of intel is so sensitive that it's literally ruined by the fact you show up in local?

Nikk Narrel wrote:
It is annoying when you can't direct, because terrified PvE pilots think I might be prepped with a cyno, so they run from anyplace they think you might find them vulnerable.

What possible sort of intel do you need to gather on PVE pilots that you can't gather in 2 hours?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1605 - 2012-11-28 23:34:03 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

Keep in mind a few key points, before you declare someone cloaking long term to be too great of a threat.
They are not earning income, or accomplishing anything directly that generates ISK or reward.
If they are depraved enough to be thrilled by the idea they are keeping multiple pilots in check, they are unlikely to do more. You might kill them and spoil their fun if they actually tried anything.



Depends on how you define reward. If denying easy ratting and hauling to your enemies is a goal, then you can definitely be rewarded by parking a cloaked ship in systems and watch everyone stay docked or puts out a ton more effort to rat/haul/mine.

You are correct. They may feel rewarded by depriving an enemy of these.

By extending the definition, you beat them by accepting the added cost, and continuing despite the burden of being constantly prepared to respond.

Is the reward worth it? That's ultimately the question.



If you mean the opportunity cost, it might be next to nothing. I make a lot of my isk trading and doing industry stuff with alts. If I put my main in a bomber, park it in an enemy systems, maybe kill a couple soft targets so they think I'm serious, it costs me nothing and cost them a lot in lost revenue. I'll still keep building and trading in the background.

Fair enough, and perfectly valid tactically.

But you know they could fight back as a team, if they put their hearts and minds into it, rather than thinking like a bunch of individuals.

Accepting this approach, you are using harassment tactics instead of gathering intel.
You might catch a few being foolish that way, but strike quality intel is altogether different.



Ha, they can't gang up and do anything about me being cloaked. They could fleet up to do stuff, but that just increases their opportunity costs.

And I can gather plenty of intel, especially with a covops cloak. I can go check out all their towers, buzz around the belts and anoms to see what they are up to. If I take Prowler, I could scan their moons to see what they are mining. I could park by their station or the most traveled gates and see who comes and goes. Since I can use probes while cloaked, I could litter the system with combat probes and keep tabs on where and when players are moving.

I can harass while gathering intel. Matter of fact, they go hand in hand. I can watch ships enter and leave the system, and swoop down to pop industrials from time to time once I've learned enough about their comings and goings.
Mirima Thurander
#1606 - 2012-11-29 00:03:00 UTC
And with local they see you and stop moving around caps and jfs you know all the stuff people do safely now with the use of 1 scout alt and the use of local.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Mirima Thurander
#1607 - 2012-11-29 00:07:16 UTC
I miss the days of still having to escort haulers from high sec to null.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1608 - 2012-11-29 00:08:17 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
And with local they see you and stop moving around caps and jfs you know all the stuff people do safely now with the use of 1 scout alt and the use of local.

Funny you should make this claim, since there's been quite a few discussions about shutting off some cynogens in various systems under CFC control because even though there were multiple neuts/reds in system, people would still keep jumping their carriers etc, warp to the station, get caught in a bubble and die.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1609 - 2012-11-29 00:23:00 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
I miss the days of still having to escort haulers from high sec to null.

I can see your nose from here.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Mirima Thurander
#1610 - 2012-11-29 00:29:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirima Thurander
Lord Zim wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
I miss the days of still having to escort haulers from high sec to null.

I can see your nose from here.

As u should as I'm sad to admit I can't shove it as far up CCP rear as some csm and space overlords to get there way.

But besides that why are u still posting in a thread that would die if you simply gave up?

I was amazed the thread lasted as long as it did in GD before the isd found it.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Nao Chen
#1611 - 2012-11-29 00:32:27 UTC
Since Eve Online is a sci-fi game 'local' is just bullshit. Pure nonsense, just like a square shaped star.
Ellin Einher
Griffin Capsuleers
Ad-Astra
#1612 - 2012-11-29 01:42:09 UTC
If they were to remove local from null, the change should also extend to low and hisec, there is no difference between low/hisec/null except for the Concord presence, all the infrastructure is the 'same'.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1613 - 2012-11-29 02:27:45 UTC
Ellin Einher wrote:
If they were to remove local from null, the change should also extend to low and hisec, there is no difference between low/hisec/null except for the Concord presence, all the infrastructure is the 'same'.

Agreed.

High sec would have enough chatting, possibly, so that even delayed local would be used socially.

Low sec is already pretty cut throat, being like a no man's land between enforced civility of the SOV regions and empire high.
Fleet up and feel the rush of a roam through NPC space.... truly in the dark!

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1614 - 2012-11-29 03:05:34 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Seriously though, intel gathering is tainted when a target knows they are being watched. They don't behave the same way as when they are oblivious to your presence.

What sort of intel is so sensitive that it's literally ruined by the fact you show up in local?

Nikk Narrel wrote:
It is annoying when you can't direct, because terrified PvE pilots think I might be prepped with a cyno, so they run from anyplace they think you might find them vulnerable.

What possible sort of intel do you need to gather on PVE pilots that you can't gather in 2 hours?

Still waiting.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1615 - 2012-11-29 03:39:12 UTC
>>>>Seriously though, intel gathering is tainted when a target knows they are being watched. They don't behave the same way as when they are oblivious to your presence.
Lord Zim wrote:
What sort of intel is so sensitive that it's literally ruined by the fact you show up in local?

Presence and operating locations of exhumers / barges / ratting ships for fleet / roam targeting.
Upon seeing hostile in local, they run for the nearest POS or outpost.
Sure, you can see a bunch of ships sitting in a POS, but that number is not always the amount active since many are left online for boosting or just chatting.

You don't see who is truly active, and doing what.

>>>>It is annoying when you can't direct, because terrified PvE pilots think I might be prepped with a cyno, so they run from anyplace they think you might find them vulnerable.
Lord Zim wrote:
What possible sort of intel do you need to gather on PVE pilots that you can't gather in 2 hours?
Still waiting.

You can't gather it in 4 hours either. Everything they do is done with a modification that you are a potential threat with a fleet waiting to cyno in if they can't move fast enough.

The time element is not truly related to intel gathering, strictly speaking, unless you need to penetrate far enough into hostile territory. You don't just walk into Mordor, or casually gate through hostile space.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1616 - 2012-11-29 04:38:14 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Presence and operating locations of exhumers / barges / ratting ships for fleet / roam targeting.
Upon seeing hostile in local, they run for the nearest POS or outpost.
Sure, you can see a bunch of ships sitting in a POS, but that number is not always the amount active since many are left online for boosting or just chatting.

You don't see who is truly active, and doing what.

"where do people mine, and when?" => look at where upgrades are, look at active pilots. job done.
"where do people rat, and when?" => look at where upgrades are, look at active pilots. job done.

I'm still getting the "I want cheap and safe miner/ratter ganks" vibe. vOv

Nikk Narrel wrote:
You can't gather it in 4 hours either. Everything they do is done with a modification that you are a potential threat with a fleet waiting to cyno in if they can't move fast enough.

You're talking about ratters and miners, which you can easily observe from afar without them knowing it, they're not operating from a seriously difficult to discern pattern. Hell, if you feel, for whatever reason, that you must spend a lot of time observing their behavior with your own eyes, you have the option to sit there, cloaked, and expend next to no personal time or effort beyond having the client on a second monitor and glancing at it once in a while, for weeks on end if you want to. If you don't gank anything, eventually they'll dismiss you as background noise and go about their business as if you weren't there.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1617 - 2012-11-29 06:37:22 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
And with local they see you and stop moving around caps and jfs you know all the stuff people do safely now with the use of 1 scout alt and the use of local.



Then I'll wait until they get tired of hiding and move any way. I guess some people are willing to be patient and some people aren't.
Mirima Thurander
#1618 - 2012-11-29 11:12:11 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
And with local they see you and stop moving around caps and jfs you know all the stuff people do safely now with the use of 1 scout alt and the use of local.



Then I'll wait until they get tired of hiding and move any way. I guess some people are willing to be patient and some people aren't.

yes u CAN sit there for days I can't I get at most 2 hours a day with net access.

So tell me how do I afk in a system for DAYS when I can only long in every few days?

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#1619 - 2012-11-29 12:56:17 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
yes u CAN sit there for days I can't I get at most 2 hours a day with net access.

So tell me how do I afk in a system for DAYS when I can only long in every few days?

This makes no sense. What's the problem?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Keko Khaan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1620 - 2012-11-29 14:37:16 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
yes u CAN sit there for days I can't I get at most 2 hours a day with net access.

So tell me how do I afk in a system for DAYS when I can only long in every few days?

This makes no sense. What's the problem?


I think hes saying that he cant afk for days when he has only couple hours playtime daily.. Or something Shocked