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New Dev Blog: Player-owned Customs Office

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Au' Tena
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1221 - 2011-10-21 13:38:20 UTC

as high-seccer all i read is DOUBLE tax rate and POSSIBLE higher PI prices.

oh man, i just cant wait ...best idea ever ...Ugh

it might increase prices for POS fuels, it however does NOT do anything else for the other things that can be manufactured with PI. yet u do get all hyped up about these sov change possibilities for low an nullsec.

perhaps it might be a better idea broaden your focus instead of spending too much time and energy in specific details.

props for ccp phantom to summon things up, yes please let them make the interface more logical.
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1222 - 2011-10-21 13:45:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominus Alterai
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Dominus Alterai wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
There should never be a system in place that prevents someone from being able to do their PI. If these go in as advertised, it's far too easy for a corporation to cut off it's own members, or members that leave, etc. from being able to do their PI. Even simply removing the customs offices dramatically damages someone's ability to perform PI... you can't import goods anymore to the planet, and odds are your network is no longer connected to the command center for those puny export launches anyhow.

PI is one thing that has truly remained in the control and grasp of the individual. It's a person's "me time" in an MMO that encourages cooperative play. Even in an MMO, a little "me time" is a good thing. It's a mental reset, a moment to focus on the "you".

If this is lost then something immeasurable is lost. A little bit of the spirit of the self gets lost. Yes, we're meant to be parts of a greater whole, but that's not all we're meant to be.


Command center launches will still be available. If CCP made the launch capacity larger or able to launch more often, not many people would complain and this specific complaint would be null and void. If you launch the P1 products produced on a planet into orbit, you can then transfer the resources to your high-sec factory planet. This is the way most serious PI people do their production, especially if they get their P1 products from low-sec. Of course, the only difference is that they use the MUCH more convenient customs offices already in place. Again, if CCP made the launch capacity of command centers larger (not rivaling that of launch pads obviously), not many people would have reason to complain. Of course, there's always the issue of the far away comm center...


Yes, launches from the planet will be available. How about getting things to the planet? If customs offices go >poof<, this whole aspect of PI is shut down. If someone else puts a POCO on your production planet, you're entire operation is screwed if they decide to be dicks about it. Taking the full personal control of one's own PI and allowing others to stop it with a click of a button... it's breaking something that's (imo) needed on an individual level.


I don't think you read my entire post. Most people have High-sec factory planets where P2 products and up are made. This will still be available, as the customs offices in high sec will remain, ie you can still import/export in high-sec.

Also, I don't think there was ever a plan to be able to deny access to a functioning POCO depending on standing. I beleive the only way to do that would be to reinforce it constantly, which is tiresome and a logistical nightmare.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1223 - 2011-10-21 13:55:51 UTC
@ CCP Phantom

I see conquerable POCOs in LOW-SEC solving many of the issues you have listed. Greifing will remain the same, that is, non-existent. "Boring" structure grinding could be solved by making them conquerable, but decreasing it's hitpoints. Denial of resources wouldn't happen, as the structure won't enter reinforced mode, prevent people from importing/exporting goods. Overall, this will still create new battlegrounds and will still very much remain desirable to conquer. This will also make ownership available to smaller corps who would only need to conquer a POCO, instead of building one, hence getting rid of the cost efficiency problems.

As for 0.0 and WH space, the issues brought up are very small or non issues. Almost everyone in 0.0 have some sort of standings with the major sov holding alliances and, if they don't, moving their PI production to low-sec would not be unfeasible, as the profits from decent low-sec planets are not much less than 0.0 planets. Not to mention the aforementioned ability for smaller groups of people (15-20) to be able to conquer low-sec POCOs, especially i they have fewer hitpoints than the fully destructible, player made versions. You could even give them different looks to keep up with the division of conquerable and destructible (gives your design team more work. lol).

Transition issues could be easily taken care of if you were to remove the customs offices from 0.0 and W-space a week LATER than you release the BPCs for them. This should give people more than enough time in order gain the appropriate amount of resources to make their own. I realize that this is somewhat of a logistical nightmare on your end and my include additional downtime as well as a possible second patch, but this would solve that issue.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Vanessa Vansen
Vandeo
#1224 - 2011-10-21 13:56:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Vanessa Vansen
I don't know what to think about it, will see if it turns out good or bad.
But I'm kind of surprised to see a feature not even mentioned in the winter expansion dev blog (more negative than positive!)

But I do have some input:

Why should concord run the customs offices?
Let the space holding NPC faction run the office and let the faction standing change the ratio of the tax

And a question:
When are you going to move the "reinforcement feature" to POS?
(just upgrade the Strontium-hold of a POS to house 46 hours, for those lucky guys that get their POS in reinforced just after their timeframe ended)
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1225 - 2011-10-21 14:03:59 UTC
Vanessa Vansen wrote:
I don't know what to think about it, will see if it turns out good or bad.
But I'm kind of surprised to see a feature not even mentioned in the winter expansion dev blog (more negative than positive!)

But I do have some input:

Why should concord run the customs offices?
Let the space holding NPC faction run the office and let the faction standing change the ratio of the tax

And a question:
When are you going to move the "reinforcement feature" to POS?
(just upgrade the Strontium-hold of a POS to house 46 hours, for those lucky guys that get their POS in reinforced just after their timeframe ended)


The standings point you bring up is a good one, however, not necessary to the mechanic of how these will effect game play, at least, not in a major way.

As for the reinforcement feature you mentioned, this is because the POCOs have no anchor-able defenses, and the player set timer allows the owner to show up during their prime time in order to RR the structure or fight off the offenders. A large POS, as it is, holds well over 36 hours of strontium (at the moment, my towers have anywhere from 1 day 12 hours to 1 day 17 hours of strontium fuel), which is plenty of time to get a fleet together in order to defend it.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1226 - 2011-10-21 14:13:50 UTC
Meldan Anstian wrote:

A few hundred posts in the thread ago, I calculated that it's about 6 times (from memory, exact number may be different) more expensive tax wise to export a unit of robotics, than it is to export all the processed materials to make a unit of robotics. So the obvious incentive is to import low level materials into the lowest tax planet around and manufacture higher level commodities, most likely in high sec.


That's an artifact of the already existing issue where tax rates on the different tiers have too much of a variance.

- Taxes on P0 are 0.10 on items that are worth about 1.00-2.00 ISK (so a 5-10% tax rate).
- P1 pays 0.76 ISK on stuff that is worth 300-500 ISK (before the price spike), or about 0.15-0.25% tax rate
- P2 pays 9 ISK and is worth 2500-4000, about a 0.22-0.36% tax rate
- P3 pays 600 ISK on stuff that sells for 25000-45000, a 1.3-2.4% rate
- P4 pays 50,000 ISK on stuff that sells for 600k to 1100k, 4.5% to 8.3% rate

So under the existing tariff schedule, P0 and P4 (and P3) are a lot more sensitive to tariff rate changes then the P1/P2 because they pay a higher percentage of their value in taxes then the other tiers. Basically, the P1/P2 tariffs are about 5x too low when compared to the others and P4 tariffs are about 2x too large.

Smoothing that out prior to release would help POCOs on planets used for P1 harvesting to have a far better payback period (5x shorter if the base tariff is raised 5x). And the P2 factory worlds would end up on an even footing with the P3 factory worlds.

On the more controversial side - I think hi-sec, NPC-owned, POCOs need to charge a lot more then the proposed 10% tariff rate (50-75% tariff would not be out of line). The 10% tariff rate is too low and makes lo-sec or NPC null-sec POCOs unable to compete at all economically. As you point out, why take the risk with anything higher then P2 in lo-sec when you can just pay a 10% tariff in hi-sec?

But if hi-sec has higher tariffs, then there need to be (a) reduction in fees if you have high standings with the NPC faction that controls that region and (b) a skill that reduces POCO tariffs. If hi-sec POCOs charge 70% for zero-standings and zero-skill, then at 10.0 standings it should drop to 60% and with the level V skill trained it could drop as low as 50%.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1227 - 2011-10-21 14:17:31 UTC
War Kitten wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:

Yes, launches from the planet will be available. How about getting things to the planet? If customs offices go >poof<, this whole aspect of PI is shut down. If someone else puts a POCO on your production planet, you're entire operation is screwed if they decide to be dicks about it. Taking the full personal control of one's own PI and allowing others to stop it with a click of a button... it's breaking something that's (imo) needed on an individual level.


Yes, we understand you refuse to see past the other options available to you:

1) Use a high-sec factory for your imports.
2) Find a less populous lowsec area to do your imports. (Lowsec is pretty empty if you get past the first 5 systems in)
3) Negotiate with the residents to use thier CO and planet for imports.
4) Join a larger corporation with similar interests.


Just because you want to play solo does not mean every single aspect of every single feature should cater to your play style.


1. You know... that sounded like a good idea so I spent the last couple hours searching my wormhole... I couldn't find any in here.
2. Couldn't find any low sec ones either. Damn the bad luck.
3. I am the residents. Between the down time from the command centers going poof to the logistical nightmare getting up to ten of these POCOs up and running, we're screwed.
4. See 1 & 2.

But... these are actually separate issues from empire, so I shouldn't let myself get too distracted... the issues there still remain in spite of your dismissals of them.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Spanking Monkeys
ZC Omega
#1228 - 2011-10-21 14:18:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Spanking Monkeys
Au' Tena wrote:

as high-seccer all i read is DOUBLE tax rate and POSSIBLE higher PI prices.

oh man, i just cant wait ...best idea ever ...Ugh

it might increase prices for POS fuels, it however does NOT do anything else for the other things that can be manufactured with PI. yet u do get all hyped up about these sov change possibilities for low an nullsec.

perhaps it might be a better idea broaden your focus instead of spending too much time and energy in specific details.

props for ccp phantom to summon things up, yes please let them make the interface more logical.



you state that it might increase pos fuel costs, but it wont effect anything else.

i take it you are not aware that robotics are used in many many t2 items. ok its a small amount per t2 item but its in directed compertion with pos fuel supplies.
while you at the 'pump' wont see the effect of this initially. every t2 producer will and it really dosnt take much of an increase in cost to drive profit out of that business. while you will always have idiots that think the stuff the produce is free(minerials and pi crap) they tend not to be big producers of items.

the effect on the big producers will be, fuckthis ill run incursions instead.

so you are wrong, it will effect the prices of everything.

the best thing imo to do woudl be to remove robotics from pos fuel, make it only for t2 items/or teh other way make it only for pos's and change it to a lower teir pi crap in production. well unless its ccp's plan to get us and dusties to fight over robotics..lol
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1229 - 2011-10-21 14:19:09 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Meldan Anstian wrote:

A few hundred posts in the thread ago, I calculated that it's about 6 times (from memory, exact number may be different) more expensive tax wise to export a unit of robotics, than it is to export all the processed materials to make a unit of robotics. So the obvious incentive is to import low level materials into the lowest tax planet around and manufacture higher level commodities, most likely in high sec.


That's an artifact of the already existing issue where tax rates on the different tiers have too much of a variance.

- Taxes on P0 are 0.10 on items that are worth about 1.00-2.00 ISK (so a 5-10% tax rate).
- P1 pays 0.76 ISK on stuff that is worth 300-500 ISK (before the price spike), or about 0.15-0.25% tax rate
- P2 pays 9 ISK and is worth 2500-4000, about a 0.22-0.36% tax rate
- P3 pays 600 ISK on stuff that sells for 25000-45000, a 1.3-2.4% rate
- P4 pays 50,000 ISK on stuff that sells for 600k to 1100k, 4.5% to 8.3% rate

So under the existing tariff schedule, P0 and P4 (and P3) are a lot more sensitive to tariff rate changes then the P1/P2 because they pay a higher percentage of their value in taxes then the other tiers. Basically, the P1/P2 tariffs are about 5x too low when compared to the others and P4 tariffs are about 2x too large.

Smoothing that out prior to release would help POCOs on planets used for P1 harvesting to have a far better payback period (5x shorter if the base tariff is raised 5x). And the P2 factory worlds would end up on an even footing with the P3 factory worlds.

On the more controversial side - I think hi-sec, NPC-owned, POCOs need to charge a lot more then the proposed 10% tariff rate (50-75% tariff would not be out of line). The 10% tariff rate is too low and makes lo-sec or NPC null-sec POCOs unable to compete at all economically. As you point out, why take the risk with anything higher then P2 in lo-sec when you can just pay a 10% tariff in hi-sec?

But if hi-sec has higher tariffs, then there need to be (a) reduction in fees if you have high standings with the NPC faction that controls that region and (b) a skill that reduces POCO tariffs. If hi-sec POCOs charge 70% for zero-standings and zero-skill, then at 10.0 standings it should drop to 60% and with the level V skill trained it could drop as low as 50%.


Tax rates in high-sec are being increased, however, not nearly as much as you are saying. the increase of 50% is plenty and will still make PI available to newer players (ie a 6% tax will increase to a 9% tax, which isn't a small amount of ISK considering that base PI prices will rise). As a member of EveUni, I think you would know the merit of helping players that have under 3 million skill points make a little bit of extra ISK here and there.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1230 - 2011-10-21 14:19:22 UTC
Dominus Alterai wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Dominus Alterai wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
There should never be a system in place that prevents someone from being able to do their PI. If these go in as advertised, it's far too easy for a corporation to cut off it's own members, or members that leave, etc. from being able to do their PI. Even simply removing the customs offices dramatically damages someone's ability to perform PI... you can't import goods anymore to the planet, and odds are your network is no longer connected to the command center for those puny export launches anyhow.

PI is one thing that has truly remained in the control and grasp of the individual. It's a person's "me time" in an MMO that encourages cooperative play. Even in an MMO, a little "me time" is a good thing. It's a mental reset, a moment to focus on the "you".

If this is lost then something immeasurable is lost. A little bit of the spirit of the self gets lost. Yes, we're meant to be parts of a greater whole, but that's not all we're meant to be.


Command center launches will still be available. If CCP made the launch capacity larger or able to launch more often, not many people would complain and this specific complaint would be null and void. If you launch the P1 products produced on a planet into orbit, you can then transfer the resources to your high-sec factory planet. This is the way most serious PI people do their production, especially if they get their P1 products from low-sec. Of course, the only difference is that they use the MUCH more convenient customs offices already in place. Again, if CCP made the launch capacity of command centers larger (not rivaling that of launch pads obviously), not many people would have reason to complain. Of course, there's always the issue of the far away comm center...


Yes, launches from the planet will be available. How about getting things to the planet? If customs offices go >poof<, this whole aspect of PI is shut down. If someone else puts a POCO on your production planet, you're entire operation is screwed if they decide to be dicks about it. Taking the full personal control of one's own PI and allowing others to stop it with a click of a button... it's breaking something that's (imo) needed on an individual level.


I don't think you read my entire post. Most people have High-sec factory planets where P2 products and up are made. This will still be available, as the customs offices in high sec will remain, ie you can still import/export in high-sec.

Also, I don't think there was ever a plan to be able to deny access to a functioning POCO depending on standing. I beleive the only way to do that would be to reinforce it constantly, which is tiresome and a logistical nightmare.


My apologies, I got my wires crossed... my response with the issues of launching drifted back to the logistics we'll have in wormholes.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1231 - 2011-10-21 14:21:50 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
War Kitten wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:

Yes, launches from the planet will be available. How about getting things to the planet? If customs offices go >poof<, this whole aspect of PI is shut down. If someone else puts a POCO on your production planet, you're entire operation is screwed if they decide to be dicks about it. Taking the full personal control of one's own PI and allowing others to stop it with a click of a button... it's breaking something that's (imo) needed on an individual level.


Yes, we understand you refuse to see past the other options available to you:

1) Use a high-sec factory for your imports.
2) Find a less populous lowsec area to do your imports. (Lowsec is pretty empty if you get past the first 5 systems in)
3) Negotiate with the residents to use thier CO and planet for imports.
4) Join a larger corporation with similar interests.


Just because you want to play solo does not mean every single aspect of every single feature should cater to your play style.


1. You know... that sounded like a good idea so I spent the last couple hours searching my wormhole... I couldn't find any in here.
2. Couldn't find any low sec ones either. Damn the bad luck.
3. I am the residents. Between the down time from the command centers going poof to the logistical nightmare getting up to ten of these POCOs up and running, we're screwed.
4. See 1 & 2.

But... these are actually separate issues from empire, so I shouldn't let myself get too distracted... the issues there still remain in spite of your dismissals of them.


As I've stated before, and I think you have as well; If CCP got rid of the customs offices a week after the release of the BPCs, you should have more than enough time to get them built and into the wh. I've also lived in a WH, so before you say anything, I know exactly how it is.

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1232 - 2011-10-21 14:29:09 UTC
I have updated the list of player concerns to reflect more feedback.

Please remember that there are a lot of good ideas in this thread also. You folks bring really constructive feedback!

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#1233 - 2011-10-21 14:29:42 UTC
One more issue I dont see mentioned:


Add a new corp role for maneging POCO's instead of putting more pressure on an existing role, making it harder for CEO's to assign certain roles.

I'm a leaf on the wind, watch how I--THE CAPACITOR IS EMPTY

Youtube: /asayanami

Twitter: @asayanami

wormholefundamentals.com
Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
#1234 - 2011-10-21 14:31:23 UTC
Because of the known griefing potential I myself was thinking of a more griefer-proofed approach.
With current rates of 50% of the materials being produced in hi-sec, the current iteration will force much
more people to hi-sec, which is not good.

Lord Timelord proposed:

Lord Timelord wrote:

Empire CO - Double the Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Still Owned by CONCORD)
Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Still Owned by CONCORD)
Null-Sec CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built)
W-Space CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built)


Even if it's not reflecting the exhaustive wish list of people posting in this thread, it probably matches well with the already
written code. I like this approach and would just see it little bit more fine grained.


  • Empire CO - Double/Tripple the Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Owner: CONCORD)

  • Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate+ small offset ,indestructible (Owner: CONCORD). A gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for a few hours. HP ~ Small Pos.

  • Null-Sec NPC - Current Tax Rate, industrictible (Owner: local NPC). Gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for 1-2 days . HP ~ Med Pos.

  • Null-Sec CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built) . HP - Large POS

  • W-Space CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built) . HP - Large POS


0ccupational Hazzard --> check out the true love story 
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#1235 - 2011-10-21 14:35:51 UTC
Dominus Alterai wrote:

Tax rates in high-sec are being increased, however, not nearly as much as you are saying. the increase of 50% is plenty and will still make PI available to newer players (ie a 6% tax will increase to a 9% tax, which isn't a small amount of ISK considering that base PI prices will rise). As a member of EveUni, I think you would know the merit of helping players that have under 3 million skill points make a little bit of extra ISK here and there.


I'm trying to find the mid-point where hi-sec tariffs are high enough that lo-sec looks attractive, where lo-sec POCOs are profitable to put up (has to be less then a 60 day payback), where there aren't any strange bumps in the tariff chain (such as the ultra low P1/P2 tax rates or the higher then they should be P4 tax rates). And I also expect PI price indexes to stay about 20-30% above September 2011 prices.

(I actually spend a lot of game time helping younger players setup P1 harvest planets, so I'm very familiar with it. A hi-sec PI harvest planet is a good way for a new player to earn 15-25M ISK/month/planet, with a payback period of about a week in most cases. We're constantly pushing new players to take up PI as a side source of income so that they don't feel so poor. Taking the tax rate on P1 stuff from 0.2% to 1.0% as a base and even raising it up to 3-8% isn't going to affect that much at all. Especially since all the other tiers will also be paying something in that tax range.

As we've seen already over the past few months, PI prices will go up if supply can't meet demand. The tariff rates just mean that younger pilots will need to be sure and charge a bit more. Reduced tariffs based on standings/skill throws the older players a bone, but without making it impossible for younger players to compete.)
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#1236 - 2011-10-21 14:46:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
@CCP Phantom


Can you please add the "Adds more Shooting at Structures to a system already bored TO TEARS with Shooting at structures."



Even if profitability and the rest of the issues are resolved taking sovereignty will now involved destroying ANOTHER 10 STRUCTURES on top of the existing structures people are BORED WITH.



Can't they make a system that involves something other than shooting? Make it the test-bed for larger sovereignty ownership style capture of the future so that they can learn from what may or may not work in SOV!

Where I am.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#1237 - 2011-10-21 14:52:07 UTC
Zhula Guixgrixks wrote:


  • Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate+ small offset ,indestructible (Owner: CONCORD). A gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for a few hours. HP ~ Small Pos.

  • Null-Sec NPC - Current Tax Rate, industrictible (Owner: local NPC). Gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for 1-2 days . HP ~ Med Pos.


Why would anyone attack them then? The only reason would be pure griefing, as you have removed the two legitimate reasons for attacking a POCO: getting the income and forcing a fight.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#1238 - 2011-10-21 14:52:20 UTC
This may be too radical of a suggestion for most people to handle, but how about this for an idea... (ideally would be not introducing them at all, but...)

Customs offices remain where they are until someone puts up a POCO.

This allows people to transition in at a pace the game can keep up with. Possibly as an "incentive" to switch them over tax rates could slowly increase over time.

This still doesn't alleviate the issue of allowing other people control of our PI, which is a horrible idea, but it may help reduce the sting that something as short-sighted as instantly removing all customs offices at once would have.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1239 - 2011-10-21 14:53:53 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Dominus Alterai wrote:

Tax rates in high-sec are being increased, however, not nearly as much as you are saying. the increase of 50% is plenty and will still make PI available to newer players (ie a 6% tax will increase to a 9% tax, which isn't a small amount of ISK considering that base PI prices will rise). As a member of EveUni, I think you would know the merit of helping players that have under 3 million skill points make a little bit of extra ISK here and there.


I'm trying to find the mid-point where hi-sec tariffs are high enough that lo-sec looks attractive, where lo-sec POCOs are profitable to put up (has to be less then a 60 day payback), where there aren't any strange bumps in the tariff chain (such as the ultra low P1/P2 tax rates or the higher then they should be P4 tax rates). And I also expect PI price indexes to stay about 20-30% above September 2011 prices.

(I actually spend a lot of game time helping younger players setup P1 harvest planets, so I'm very familiar with it. A hi-sec PI harvest planet is a good way for a new player to earn 15-25M ISK/month/planet, with a payback period of about a week in most cases. We're constantly pushing new players to take up PI as a side source of income so that they don't feel so poor. Taking the tax rate on P1 stuff from 0.2% to 1.0% as a base and even raising it up to 3-8% isn't going to affect that much at all. Especially since all the other tiers will also be paying something in that tax range.

As we've seen already over the past few months, PI prices will go up if supply can't meet demand. The tariff rates just mean that younger pilots will need to be sure and charge a bit more. Reduced tariffs based on standings/skill throws the older players a bone, but without making it impossible for younger players to compete.)


Another way to solve this is to not make POCOs in low-sec destructible, as this will GREATLY decrease the costs of low-sec PI, as well as making them more attractive to smaller corps or smaller gangs, as a conquerable structure with only a few hundred thousand hitpoints should be easily feasible for a 10-20 man gang of bc's and bs's.

We're on the same page here, just different ways of doing it. We both want low-sec PI to not break...

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.
Dominus Alterai
Star Freaks
#1240 - 2011-10-21 14:58:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominus Alterai
Zhula Guixgrixks wrote:
Because of the known griefing potential I myself was thinking of a more griefer-proofed approach.
With current rates of 50% of the materials being produced in hi-sec, the current iteration will force much
more people to hi-sec, which is not good.

Lord Timelord proposed:

Lord Timelord wrote:

Empire CO - Double the Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Still Owned by CONCORD)
Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Still Owned by CONCORD)
Null-Sec CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built)
W-Space CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built)


Even if it's not reflecting the exhaustive wish list of people posting in this thread, it probably matches well with the already
written code. I like this approach and would just see it little bit more fine grained.


  • Empire CO - Double/Tripple the Current Tax Rate and indestructible (Owner: CONCORD)

  • Low-Sec CO - Current Tax Rate+ small offset ,indestructible (Owner: CONCORD). A gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for a few hours. HP ~ Small Pos.

  • Null-Sec NPC - Current Tax Rate, industrictible (Owner: local NPC). Gang can attack the structure and put it out of order for 1-2 days . HP ~ Med Pos.

  • Null-Sec CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built) . HP - Large POS

  • W-Space CO - Adjustable Tax Rate and Destructible (Player Built) . HP - Large POS




No to your first 3 points (the ones about high-sec, low-sec, and NPC null). There is still no incentive to attack a POCO with this. No one wants to shoot at something that won't A.) be theirs to own or B.) go boom. This will change nothing except sov 0.0 and WH's. 0.0 npc space is not technically owned by players, but living there for a few months should make you realize that the larger sov holding alliances around there basically own it. You can tell by the numerous roams, station/gate camps, heavily guarded mining ops, etc; basically making it sov 0.0, but without the actual sov mechanic (ah, the good old pre-dominion days...)

Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009.